Request 10 second delay..???
Thread Starter
Request 10 second delay..???
Seems to be a very common call from a certain flying school at AF lately.
Only reason I can think of is someone started a trend for short field take-offs, but granted, although similar to a CFM56, surely a mighty Lycoming IO-360-L2A doesn't take that long to spool up?
Only reason I can think of is someone started a trend for short field take-offs, but granted, although similar to a CFM56, surely a mighty Lycoming IO-360-L2A doesn't take that long to spool up?
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I used to fly the school I assume you are referring to. The ten second delay is designed to allow for a bit of margin, realistically five seconds or less would suffice.
It often occurs that an instructor will be advising the student of things to look for, watch out for, or just general advice. Really...does it make that much of a difference? I'd be annoyed if they did plenty of glide approaches. As they slow everything down.
It often occurs that an instructor will be advising the student of things to look for, watch out for, or just general advice. Really...does it make that much of a difference? I'd be annoyed if they did plenty of glide approaches. As they slow everything down.
Thread Starter
How does a glide slow anything down?
You don't turn in from the same downwind position as a powered approach.
Agreed five seconds or less does suffice, so no need for the call. It just makes Tower's job more difficult. They're having to make sure the next aircraft isn't too far around base/final to allow the lineup and wondering what the delay is for.
Yeah, I know, it's just a few seconds, so why not just line up like every one else does. If things are tight, Tower will tell you it's for an immediate.
As for advising the student etc, the student should know what to look for before they go out. That's what briefing is for. It's a 172, it isn't that hard.
You don't turn in from the same downwind position as a powered approach.
Agreed five seconds or less does suffice, so no need for the call. It just makes Tower's job more difficult. They're having to make sure the next aircraft isn't too far around base/final to allow the lineup and wondering what the delay is for.
Yeah, I know, it's just a few seconds, so why not just line up like every one else does. If things are tight, Tower will tell you it's for an immediate.
As for advising the student etc, the student should know what to look for before they go out. That's what briefing is for. It's a 172, it isn't that hard.
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Why don't you ask one of them instead of casting aspersions on a public forum?
AF is a training aerodrome. I have no idea about what school you are reffering to or which school you come from but this seems like a very petty and insignificant point to make.
Is ten seconds too much to ask... jeez.
AF is a training aerodrome. I have no idea about what school you are reffering to or which school you come from but this seems like a very petty and insignificant point to make.
Is ten seconds too much to ask... jeez.
A clearance for takeoff implies a rolling start at AF. So if someone requests a 10 second delay shows good airmanship. Who cares. It's either approved or denied.
It is a training environment after all and I'm sure the instructor or PIC has a valid reason for the request. Does it really matter?
It is a training environment after all and I'm sure the instructor or PIC has a valid reason for the request. Does it really matter?
A clearance to takeoff implies a rolling start at AF
Besides STOL practice, why else would you need ten seconds stationary? Hopefully it is not reading checklists?
Last edited by compressor stall; 22nd Mar 2013 at 11:40.
Thread Starter
Stacko,
Yep, someone from tower did ask today. Seems they have been scratching their heads lately too.
Never heard this call made as routinely at any other aerodrome as I'm hearing it at AF lately.
CS,
I think the words "immediate" or "keep it rolling" are actually used when this situation is required, but happy to stand corrected if AIP or ERSA FAC as to why AF is different to every other aerodrome in Australia can be quoted.
On the contrary, I would suggest checking static rpm limits on a C172 would actually be checked most accurately at as slow a speed as possible, standstill preferrably, but it still doesn't take that long.
Airwolf,
"So there" does not advance your argument.
Yep, someone from tower did ask today. Seems they have been scratching their heads lately too.
Never heard this call made as routinely at any other aerodrome as I'm hearing it at AF lately.
CS,
I think the words "immediate" or "keep it rolling" are actually used when this situation is required, but happy to stand corrected if AIP or ERSA FAC as to why AF is different to every other aerodrome in Australia can be quoted.
On the contrary, I would suggest checking static rpm limits on a C172 would actually be checked most accurately at as slow a speed as possible, standstill preferrably, but it still doesn't take that long.
Airwolf,
"So there" does not advance your argument.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 22nd Mar 2013 at 11:47.
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I'm sure they aren't sitting there for 10s pulling their d&$cks. So there is obviously a reason. Some Company SOP's and aircraft require certain checks to be completed upon line up - if required one must request the delay and any incurred delay from atc due to such request.
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You don't turn in from the same downwind position as a powered approach.
It is not a practice forced landing from downwind where ATC needs to know for separation spacing. No need to tell ATC since it is a normal circuit turn on to base. If due to traffic ahead you are unable to turn base in the normal position, then extend downwind as needed while maintaining level flight until on final. Then when you reckon you can make it from there, close the throttle and commence the glide. The aim of the exercise is to practice gliding to land as against a powered approach to land. It is not a forced landing practice which is normally conducted in the training area.
when training flights required time to load up on the brakes for a short field take off
Last edited by sheppey; 22nd Mar 2013 at 12:18.
Makeithappencapt.
It ain't in the ERSA. I checked.
MCKES - please please tell me we don't have a flying school SOP that requires 10 seconds lined up at the threshold? If so, the I think the CFI who dreamt up that SOP has been doing what you so eloquently described.
It sounds like completing the before takeoff checklist to me when stationary so the student doesn't drive into the grass trying to read Strobes.... ON Transponder.....ON Heading.....CHECK Takeoff clearance....CHECK.
It ain't in the ERSA. I checked.
MCKES - please please tell me we don't have a flying school SOP that requires 10 seconds lined up at the threshold? If so, the I think the CFI who dreamt up that SOP has been doing what you so eloquently described.
It sounds like completing the before takeoff checklist to me when stationary so the student doesn't drive into the grass trying to read Strobes.... ON Transponder.....ON Heading.....CHECK Takeoff clearance....CHECK.
Last edited by compressor stall; 22nd Mar 2013 at 12:22.
Thread Starter
I know. So did I.
Question, Sheppy.
Why does Mr Cessna specify a static RPM limit (both max and min) for a fixed pitch propellor if you are not supposed to check the max throttle rpm at a static position?
Too low, not enough torque being produced from the engine to drive the propellor.
Too high, not enough torque being produced from the propellor, therefore not enough thrust being produced either. (Think of the lift/drag relationship and apply that to the prop blade. It just gets renamed thrust/torque.)
Basic check that should be conducted as a part of every takeoff with a fixed pitch prop.
Eg.
RPM in range (release brakes)
Engine parameters in range
Airspeed increasing
But again, I stress it shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to verify.
As for glide approaches (ie. non standard circuits), they are advised and approved as you will normally be turning a much closer base than during a normal approach. At AF on Rwy 10L for example, they may specify to remain clear of helicopter area Alpha as they expect you to be turning almost immediately passing the downwind end of the runway.
Agreed we do use them to tune the student's round out, but why would you not practise a glide approach at a known location so that you become used to what the aircraft is capable of and can then apply the picture and performance to an unknown location (ie the training area)?
The whole idea of a PFL is to fly something as close to a circuit pattern as possible because you are (hopefully) aware of the aircraft's performance in that scenario.
Question, Sheppy.
Why does Mr Cessna specify a static RPM limit (both max and min) for a fixed pitch propellor if you are not supposed to check the max throttle rpm at a static position?
Too low, not enough torque being produced from the engine to drive the propellor.
Too high, not enough torque being produced from the propellor, therefore not enough thrust being produced either. (Think of the lift/drag relationship and apply that to the prop blade. It just gets renamed thrust/torque.)
Basic check that should be conducted as a part of every takeoff with a fixed pitch prop.
Eg.
RPM in range (release brakes)
Engine parameters in range
Airspeed increasing
But again, I stress it shouldn't take more than one or two seconds to verify.
ENR 1.1
15.2 Non-Standard Circuit Operations
Pilots must advise ATC of non-standard circuit operations, eg, glide and flapless circuits, normally with the DOWNWIND report. This advice will also alert other circuit traffic. ATC must also be advised of single engined aircraft conducting simulated engine failures at the earliest opportunity.
15.2.1 Where appropriate, an ATC sequencing instruction will indicate that there are no traffic restrictions precluding the manoeuvre. Subject to traffic, ATC may deny, or apply parameters to such operations for traffic management purposes.
15.2 Non-Standard Circuit Operations
Pilots must advise ATC of non-standard circuit operations, eg, glide and flapless circuits, normally with the DOWNWIND report. This advice will also alert other circuit traffic. ATC must also be advised of single engined aircraft conducting simulated engine failures at the earliest opportunity.
15.2.1 Where appropriate, an ATC sequencing instruction will indicate that there are no traffic restrictions precluding the manoeuvre. Subject to traffic, ATC may deny, or apply parameters to such operations for traffic management purposes.
Agreed we do use them to tune the student's round out, but why would you not practise a glide approach at a known location so that you become used to what the aircraft is capable of and can then apply the picture and performance to an unknown location (ie the training area)?
The whole idea of a PFL is to fly something as close to a circuit pattern as possible because you are (hopefully) aware of the aircraft's performance in that scenario.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 22nd Mar 2013 at 13:12. Reason: Caveat.
A ready call is just that.You are supposed to be ready.An instructor should be able to give any take-off patter during the roll on and line up process without delaying the take-off power application.
Last edited by mates rates; 23rd Mar 2013 at 00:49.
In the real world rolling take-offs are the norm and not the exception. Do we no longer train for the real world? If the checklist or SOP requires 10 seconds on the runway, a review is called for. 'Ready' means just that - all checks done and dusted with the possible exception of a couple of minor items that should be committed to memory and easily done on the move e.g. strobes and transponder could surely be memorised by anyone with enough smarts to be flying. What next for the checklist? Throttle open, stick pull back, check houses getting smaller?
As for checking static RPM, isn't that what the run-up bay is used for?
There is already a big thread elsewhere with some good (and not-so-good) advice on how checklists should be developed and used, and indeed whether in single-pilot operations on simple aircraft using basic memonics is not actually safer for pre-takeoff and pre-landing phases of flight.
As for checking static RPM, isn't that what the run-up bay is used for?
There is already a big thread elsewhere with some good (and not-so-good) advice on how checklists should be developed and used, and indeed whether in single-pilot operations on simple aircraft using basic memonics is not actually safer for pre-takeoff and pre-landing phases of flight.
Thread Starter
Zoomy, not saying you need to sit there for a huge period, but just explaining why the limit exists. The degrading comes through instructors who only care about building hours and not producing the highest standard of pilot possible.
Example, how many people check carb heat by seeing a drop and that's all?
What does a gradual increase in rpm mean?
How many note the ambient MP before starting a CSU equipped aircraft?
How many inches drop from this figure would be normal and how much would be unacceptable?
Mightn't matter in Cairns, but this stuff will be an issue in Hobart in winter. I will make no apology for insisting my students are aware of these things.
Example, how many people check carb heat by seeing a drop and that's all?
What does a gradual increase in rpm mean?
How many note the ambient MP before starting a CSU equipped aircraft?
How many inches drop from this figure would be normal and how much would be unacceptable?
Mightn't matter in Cairns, but this stuff will be an issue in Hobart in winter. I will make no apology for insisting my students are aware of these things.
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If it's the flight school with all the a's, it's just so they can stand on the brakes and run the engine up. It's probably a bit excessive, but it doesn't hurt either so I don't really see what the problem is.
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It's for a short field takeoff. As an earlier poster said, a clearance to takeoff assumes a rolling run. That's what tower bases their separation on, anything different would f$&k that up.
In reality it's never 10 seconds, but it has to cater for every student no matter how efficient the instructors patter is.
In reality it's never 10 seconds, but it has to cater for every student no matter how efficient the instructors patter is.