Simple. Do it the proper way or do it Divosh's way. :cool:

a couple of questions
 

While we are talking about clogging airways. Is it really necessary to say 'request 10 miles left (to avoid weather)' I mean what else could you be diverting around that ATC didn't already know about...I could be wrong, I mean maybe a giant version of Dr Manhattan just appeared to battle Ozymandias or perhaps Godzilla is running amok and you want to get the hell out of his fire breathing terror as he thwarts Mothra.
Also why on earth would you cancel SARWATCH in the circuit. You're still in the air. Personally that's pretty much the most critical time I want someone looking out for me! Regardless of the fact that I'm "in contact" with some company stooge who wouldn't know what to do if we didn't actually land.
I recently heard some dude request cancel SAR as his "landing was assured"....I wish I was that positive all the time.
And what the hell is "departed at this time"...What time is that! I might be in a worm hole and think you were next to me and I sure as hell don't want to merge with you when I come out.
I once heard a guy request a visual approach to a non towered aerodrome from ATC and they said "sure, if your visual".
Either way it all makes me laugh and I don't get it right every time anyhow.

Yep good post:ok:

By the way, CX changed our manuals 5 years ago to remove the requirement to report leaving/maintaining a Level whilst Radar identified. I haven't made such a call in Oz since then and haven't been told off!! In my hours and hours of listening in whilst droning over Oz I hardly ever hear any Oz operators do so either. It is the 21st century after all!!

Progress!!

This is all mute anyway, give it 10 years and it will all be CPDLC!!

If you tend to look closer at the requirements for operating into and put of MILITARY aerodromes, they require you state POB on initial Taxi call! Darwin is a dual military/commercial aerodrome and that is why they controllers are asking you to state your POB... Devosh!

Also I sometime operate a pressurised aircraft, VFR at flight levels below FL180. when you think no one is listening to craft, think again... it is a requirements for our company to listen to both CTR and CTAF FREQUENCIES when able. So when I'm on decent from FL150 to my CTAF at 25NM, chances can be that I'll conflict with outbound Metro traffic departing for a hop skip jump at FL120, on my decent.

So Yes... it can and does happen. Just because you cruise above 10000ft doesn't mean your oblivious to what's happening underneath you.

Simple answer just say the FL on climb to. How hard is it! Maybe I'll start saying "climbing altitudes" when I depart a CTAF and see how the traffic inbound takes it. I'm sure the radioactivity will get clogged then! :D

Jepp Atc AU-207 1.1

Operations into controlled airspace... pilot action and related activity in civil AND military controlled airspace.

Then... just below.

1.2.3.1 PIC for IFR flight MUST provide ATC with number of POB when requesting Taxi Clearance.

Divosh... there you have it.

This thread isn't supposed to make people bitter and twisted about themselves or others with simple radio calls.

It's just some handy tips and pointers for those who want to fine tune their calls to be be as close to correct as possible, with details on references for further reading.

Knowing the AIPs and their requirements doesn't make him a village idiot - it makes him educated.

Off you hop.

DiVosh, great post.

Educated, now that's very funny.

Someone on a soap box spruiking "facts" is hardly educated.

Hold Short, I know who you are in the real world, you should not be spruiking anything to anybody.

Oh really ?, POB is not required for RPT, thats a piece of the puzzle that he is missing, along with many other pieces.

Dick waving, like many of the posts above makes pprune far less fun than it could be.

Jepp Atc AU-207... for those interested in the actual radio requirements for controlled airspace.

We are always learning!

no POB details for RPT
 

Hold short,
I could not find that page in my Jep, however I did find in ATC AU-701 1.2.3.2 effective 2 Jun 11: 'For IFR flights operating as other than RPT, the pilot-in-command must provide ATC with the number of POB when requesting taxi clearance.'
I suspect you have an old page that has been updated. You may also find further down on that page that there was no requirement for RPT to comply.
Cheers

But someone on a soap box spruiking it's okay to use non-standard phraseology is hardly professional.

If ATC continuously did it you'd all be up in arms. Everyone has a slip up, but not bothering to learn, or deliberately not using, correct R/T is just plain slack. At least you think you sound so cool on the radio...the majority listening think you sound like a joker.

Harrowing,

My appologies, it is JEPPS AU 701 1.2.3.1.

Don't know where I got 207 from. Thanks for that.

C'mon people, we're only a few posts from the neat 100,,,,all because some boob said "taxi's",,,,,,,gotta love this site!!!!:D:D:D:D:D

So we've got the 'be a polished, knowledgeable pilot and keep your calls as closely in line with AIP as possible' group, versus the 'you're being ridiculously pedantic, look at the big picture, if the communication is clear and understood then what's the difference' group...

http://www.excusememe.com/pics/imagebase/5208.gif

(personally, 'taxies' gives me the ****s, as does 'climbing flight levels'... but then, I have no problem with 'cancel SAR', nor with 'request 5 miles left of track due weather' :})

That's right 'mm2' gotta luv this site & this pedantic thread subject has almost reached a 100 posts in only a few days!!!....this is better than watching the idiots/children in Parliament on the TV!!!:)
Yanks reading this would be choking on their hot dogs I reckon with laughter!:E


Wmk2

versus the 'you sound like a muppet, your communication is not clear nor easily understood and requires multiple replies from ATC to get all of the required information from you'.

I think it is these clowns that frustrated Hold_Short to the point where he had to write something about it.

100 posts and not locked yet - me thinks this is a radio call threat record.

Damn ,I had something really witty for the big 100,,,got in late and missed it double damn!!
and yeh the yanks would love the side show for sure

Must be a slow day in the Rex CT office.
Get back to your flying schools.

Bbbbbbzbzbzbzbzzzzzzzzzbbbzzzzzzzz

Just throw the SAO's on the ground in the centre of the circle and run out the door, leave them to their own "devices".

If only it were that easy SDT. Would be funny to fill their bottle of baby oil with skydrol though!

Bbbbbzbzbzbzbzbzzzzzzzzzzz

Oh so disappointed I only found this thread now! It is overdue, as it has been such a long time since the last one :rolleyes:

Just as an aside, I believe it is not a requirement to make a departure call on the ctaf, as per the AIP. My company manual does stipulate though that a departure call should be made when turning contrary to the circuit direction and it actually includes the phrase "climbing to flight levels" :ooh:

And let's face it, anyone who cares what flight level we are "climbing to" will hear it in the full departure report we make on the area frequency shortly after.

OMFG!!!
 

So according to this thread, the YMMB tower broke all the rules a few years back when I was the only one doing laps, by giving me score updates as part of Tx'ing #1 clear to land??? :ugh:

Seriously, being clear and concise missing part of the info is more professional than spitting it out as fast as possible 100% correct :ugh::ugh::ugh:

At least when the guy whom is clear is understood and can be questioned for further info if needed........i.e ABC you needed to read that back to me in full, or OCTA, "BBB, what level are you at?" Or we just be a prig, "CCC why don't you read the AIP so your calls are correct :ugh:

With the rate of change of the rules in this country, its a wonder anyone can get their R/T 100% correct all the time. The most able would have to be ATC as they are doing it all the time. Fair cop to the recreational (PPL/RAA/glider) who at least try to get it right, lest be pounded by some 'professional'

That in mind, it opens the box as to what % of time do you spend memorising the correct phrase so your R/T

Aviate, Navigate, communicate. (great in a crew environment with all the latest gadgets to tell you that you need to turn left) (might explain why the guy on page 5 wasn't so sure his landing was assured :ouch: )

It's great in any environment, crew or not, C206 or A380.

Ever been flying around SYD/BNE/MEL approach with many many aircraft in the airspace? You have to be clear yet efficient. You need to learn the call properly to avoid the following from happening:

Most calls haven't changed in a long time. CTAF calls were amended in 2005, then a slight change as when to make them 18 months ago (but the format didn't change). Old mate in his 182 has had plenty of time and educational material to get it right and not come blasting through a major CTAF or CTA talking dribble.

Yep, do it in that order, but do it all properly. jas24zzk, you hope to join Rex or someone similar one day. I'd hope by the time you get an aviation job and stop bashing car bodies around that you have realised the importance of being professional in every aspect of being a pilot, including radio calls. Everyone has their own style and there are moments of humour - don't think anyone is saying that should change. But learning what to say is just part of your job, whether you do it recreationally or for a living. Get it right early in your career and you'll be thankful later.

That's right and you could use either depending on whether or not you have been cleared to descend.

If you were cleared to descend, you descend, but are waiting for someone else to finish their long-winded radio call, then you will have "left' your FL. If you are in fact leaving your FL, you would say you are "leaving." Pretty simple really.

They are not the same thing.

XXX

Pretty simple really ---- simply rubbish ---- with all due respect.
Can we please forget primary school grammar and stick with the very common sense ICAO and the rest of the world recommended usage:

LEFT ( or RIGHT) is a direction.
LEAVING --- when you are proceeding ( nearly said headed) up or down, the associated words being PASSING and MAINTAINING.

Pity there is nothing in the CASA training training syllabi or the AIP about the principles of good R/T, as apposed to a ridiculously (compared to Annex X, Vol 2) long list of "standard phrases".

Tootle pip!!

Ah yes...gotta love the OZ aviation scene...

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

PG

With all due respect LS, what would you say if you left FL250 2 minutes ago if you were cleared prior....?

Doesn't happen every time as I said, but it's often very busy and impossible to get your call out. The standard phraseology would not suit in this instance.

"On decent XX Passing FLXX".

Oh dear
 

All I'm seeing is a confirmation of my earlier claim re: compliance vs. productivity or performance.

There is a lot wrong with this paragraph, but the author is more concerned whether someone calls "Taxi's" instead of "Taxiing" instead of asking questions to his CP about airmanship and SOP's that enhance safety instead of detracting from safety.

IMHO, these are the questions you should be asking:

Why are you flying passenger carrying charters VFR? Why are you flying airwork/charter at flight levels VFR? If your company can afford to operate pressurised aircraft, they can afford the cost of flying IFR and all the extra protection that it provides both you and the passengers who've paid good money to fly from A to B.

Why does your company have a requirement to monitor en-route CTAF's if you're at flight levels? Please tell me how it is going to aid your Situational Awareness if you're flying above FL150 and listening to enroute CTAFs? I can't see any benefit. All I can see is distracting cockpit noise; 99% of which is irrelevant to you. And the 1% that may be relevant to you would be passed onto you if you were flying IFR!

Why are you at FL150 at 25Nm on descent to a CTAF? (Disclaimer: my only experience of pressurised aircraft is a Dash8 flying RPT. If people who fly aircraft like Cessna 421's/Conquests/King airs, etc, do this regularly then I withdraw the question). Does it make sense to fly a 6 degree glide path?
Wouldn't it be more fuel efficient to fly a shallower glide path?

These are the types of questions I'd be asking: i.e. Airmanship, SOP's that are conducive to safe flying, etc. Not some pet hates about how other people can't comply with the byzantine regs set out in the AIP.

(btw, thanks for the link. Just adds to what I'm saying about overly complicated and byzantine regs that we live with here in Oz.)

As I said in my reply to you earlier, if you're on anything like a reciprocal heading you're going to be in conflict with the metro if it's climbing anywhere from 6000' to FL180. So if the Metro says "flight levels", who cares?

Are you NOT going to call the Metro and arrange separation?

A better question! :ok: Out of Devonport my intended FL is FL180 but I can't climb above FL125 without a clearance. I may not get the clearance to fly above FL125 until around 30Nm from Devonport. I may not get FL180 due the Rex out of Wynyard or the Q400 out of Launy asking for the same, or god knows who else out there flying on an oblique track. We may decide to fly higher or lower depending on the en-route winds.

So I can call "climbing FL180", but it could be a lie! :eek: I suppose I could call "climbing intended FL180" but people like you would peg me for non-standard-AIP r/t and there would be another prune thread about it. :}


In my experience when people write an email or post on a bulletin board they have in their head a train of thoughts behind what they wrote, as well as their own tone and stye of writing. Unfortunately the reader of the post or email has their own thoughts, tone, and style.

The result is that it's difficult to write something and have another person read and understand it in the same manner in which you intended it to be read and understood.

So you may well have intended your thread to be about "handy tips and pointers". But I read your first post and most of the rest of your posts in this thread as diatribes and rants.

Bloggs

Very droll! If only everything were so black and white and clear cut.

We had a flight going into YMAY a few years ago from Sydney. The FO made her inbound call to Albury tower but messed up the sequence of the call. Albury tower were pretty good about it, understood what she was trying to say, and gave her a clearance. The Captain made her say the entire call again iaw the AIP in spite of Albury tower giving her the clearance.

So who's clogging up the airwaves? The FO? Albury tower? No. The Captain who insisted on the FO making an entirely unnecessary second call to Albury tower because he wanted it done exactly as per the AIP.


DIVOSH!

DI Vosh. You have accused Bloggs as being black or white yet you are also guilty by stating this is compliance vs productivity. You can be compliant and productive, they are not mutually exclusive. If you say taxis instead of taxiing then you are being productive, however if you say taxiing then you are both productive and compliant.

As for the climbing to flight levels. Simply say the level you are climbing to, your flight planned level. If you want to change it then can do so with ATC and everybody knows what you are doing. I am at FL350 and you say flight levels, are you planning on climbing that high? Am I going have to make a radio call to see if we conflict? If you say your flight planned altitude then that covers everyone in between and excludes all else. Far more efficient and productive.

Somebody else mentioned the old "aviate, navigate, communicate" chestnut. "Communicate" being the third priority is not an excuse to be sloppy. We, as professionals, should be striving to get every aspect of our work correct.

I am amazed at some of the comments and attacks on this thread. A lot of you guys are getting upset at those pointing out the correct ways of doing things without any valid reasons to do it otherwise. Other than DI Vosh who has tried to justify not doing it correct, the rest are just name calling. If you can't be bothered doing it the way it is set out in the AIP then that's fine by me, just don't try and justify it by being anything other than lazy and ignorant.

PS ecovictim, it should actually be "ABC descending to FLXX", if not identified then you would add "leaving FLXX". "on climb" and "on descent" are non-standard and as such, do not exist in the AIP. :E

I'll relax a little about radio calls when just one of you IFR pilots tells me why their taxy call is:

'Melbourne Centre, ABC taxy-ing IFR Wagga for Bankstown request traffic and code'

When the correct call is:

'Melbourne Centre, ABC, Chieftain, POB 6, IFR, Taxy-ing Wagga for Bankstown, Runway 23

Which one of you started the crap? If you don't get a code, squawk 2000, if you don't get a traffic statement and there is any, holiday time for the ATC.

This garbage has even made it's way into the RAAF. Why are you RAAF pilots adopting this garbage?

You may think that not using standard phraseology is ok, what's it matter? It matters particularly when it's busy and I have to go back and ask you what your departure runway is so the inbound traffic knows. The POB is there for a reason. If anything happens to you and a phase is declared the services need to know how many people they are looking for.

Things happen quickly at times (not all the time). When our sectors are on combine one person is managing 7 frequencies (sectors), they are on re-transmit but you are not necessarily hearing everyone else. You don't know at times how busy the ATC is.

I don't see why it is so difficult to look at AIP GEN page 3.4 - 48 para 5.14.4 for your taxy call when you are going to be doing it every day?

A question for ATCers, where do I put 'Med one' in my taxi call? I've tried at the start, finish and in the middle somewhere, always seems to get missed! :(

Maybe it's all the nights I am doing!;)

'HH' add Med 1 anywhere you like in yr R/T, the excersize is to get the information out there not try to conform to some pedantic R/T proc that few seem to use as per the book anyway. Just 'cause it's written in the book doesn't mean it suits every situation.
I used to always add in extra small bits of info where necessary on my calls to make it plain English & understandable. One had to 'speak' to whomever is out there in R/T land as if they where the lowest common denominator of all pilots.


Wmk2

I think most of us take pride in what we say on the Radio and mostly try to use correct phraseology HOWEVER if you misplace the occasional word or say "left" instead of "leaving" etc then by god it's no biggy, REALLY it's not.

As I said earlier it's all a matter of communication, does the other party understand what you are saying? If yes then :ok:

In Australia where we mostly speak good English to each other the occasional mistake/omission is easily fixed.

In places like India, China, Indonesia etc it is much more vital that standard calls are made because the locals will have no idea what you said AND probably won't confirm what you said, they'll most likely ignore it all together. THAT is a real safety problem.:eek:

I agree Nitpicker (which is a colloquialism for being pedantic, oh the irony!). The occasional slip up is easily done and therefore excused. The issue is more focused towards not even knowing when one is slipping up. If you always say "left" instead of "leaving" because you don't know or care that it is incorrect, then re-education is required. Hence the purpose of this thread.

As Ranga said, standard phraseology serves a higher purpose that being a platform to nit pick. It is intended to reduce any confusion between parties.

Yawn........really.

Yawn.


Leaving, Left........who gives a Rats really??????

If I was an ATCO and QFA134 reported "leaving FL350" I'd understand that to be he was no longer maintaining FL350 and was now descending.

If I was an ATCO and QFA134 reported "left FL350" I'd understand that to be he was no longer maintaining FL350 and was now descending.

AND a check of my zillion dollar Radar display would indeed confirm that the Altitude readout was no longer steady at FL350.

Mmmmmmm. Could be lots of confusion there !!

Maverick....long time no see!

Yes the number of dep calls by a jabiru in a CTAF like YCAB is amazing:ugh: no wonder YRED has a separate freq now as they have the same problem.

Mr Ranga makes a very good point..... I try ever so hard to follow correctly the required format because seeing how you guys work the other end of the radio really opens your eyes:eek:

Hey jabba, I'll be out your way tomorrow flying one of those things without engines. Hopefully my ctaf calls will be up to scratch :O

No engines :eek::eek::eek:

Wally has a meltdown when you have just one....:uhoh:

Drop me a PM with when where and who, if I am free I might seek in :ok: hydration supplies in hangar fridge too.