Oxford Aviation Academy ripping off Jetstar applicants
 

All you Jetstar "Advanced Cadetship" applicants, be warned.

Stories are emerging of Advanced Cadetship applicants paying Oxford the money for the application, taking time off work for the interviews with Oxford and resigning from their positions when Oxford tells them they're in...

...only to be told by Jetstar that they don't qualify.

Why?

Because they actually hold an ATPL, not just passes in the exams :suspect:

People are not only losing cash and wasting weeks of their time, but losing their existing employment and becoming stranded in aviation limbo.

There is a group forming to lodge a complaint with Dept Fair Trading over Oxford Aviation Academy's conduct. If you have been burnt by this, please send me a PM.

Edited to keep the lawyers at bay - Everyone be VERY careful with emotive language please

MA

We did actually warn everyone of this 3 months ago.

/Standing by for complaints of poor conditions and low pay.

You mean they turned people away because their ATPL is unfrozen?:eek:

Obviously too close to being 'real' pilots who should actually be paid more as DEFOs... :E

By joining with an ATPL they will have already broken the golden barrier distinction Jet* constructed between 'junior' and 'senior' FO positions. Makes it hard for them to then enforce the nice long stint on peasant wages as a 'Junior' FO...

People DO NOT PAY for APPLICATIONS or a JOB its just WRONG !:ugh:

Given the way that the selection process seemed to have been structured it is not just the guys with 'the green light' that are affected. Guys and girls that forked out approx. $1,000 to travel interstate to attend the process who were rejected in favour of the ATPL holders may have been rejected incorrectly and had their future careers affected by this - arguably with hindsight in a positive way!! ;-)

My perception from participating in the process was that (assuming the standard was met) it was only the top 2 performers in a group of 10 and top 1 performer in a group of 5 that got the opportunity to go in front of Jetstar. I know that the individual who got through in my group of 5 had an ATPL - so assuming my perception is correct, that means 1 of the remaining 4 applicants in the group were possibly rejected incorrectly.

I also had reservations about the manner in which the selection process occurred. Some groups seemed to do the testing and interview prior to the group exercises and others did the testing and group exercises prior to the interview. Consequently some applicants were rejected after the first two elements and did not reach the group exercise, some in other groups did not reach the interview. How can this provide a uniform selection process??

This 'oversight' by Oxford should have been picked up at initial application stage, prior to the selection day. One of the questions on the application form was What licences do you hold? Perhaps this is an indication of how focussed they were towards getting as many people to part with their money as possible?? I know when I arrived at Oxford - and this is no joke - I was greeted not with Good Morning, Welcome to Oxford Aviation Academy but with What is your name?? How will you be paying??

There can be no excuses for oversights like this!!!

Good Luck to all those seeking redress - you deserve to be re-imbursed and not just fobbed of with a flimsy apology if you are lucky!!!

Jethro darling, where have you been in a cave for the last few years? Most airlines charge for the selection process these days and/or charge you the the endorsement. Yes the cadetship is digging the whole deeper ( and yes I applied for it!) -it sucks but it is the way it is.

A very fitting summary.

Excuse me;

But are we to gleen from this that there are ATPL holders (pilots with in excess of 1500 hours, subjects, etc), after obviously having spent thousands already, hundreds of hours in the profession, perhaps years in the industry, and are now complaining that they have been shafted for upfront fees, and will not be permitted to pay approx $210K to work up the front of an A320 clearing less money per year than a Woollies check out chick?!

CHR!ST ALL BL@@DY MIGHTY!

Candidates for the "Darwin Award" if ever I've seen 'em. :rolleyes:

$60,000 by my count

Typical Oaa when you charge $440 an hour or something for a c172! maybe it has something to do with the boss almost running off the end of 34r that avo at mb doing a circling approach in his citation at 300ft outside the circling area :}
:=

Sounds like fun. :ok::E

Why are people paying for jobs because stupid people have paid before now they want everyone to pay which is worse than working for FREE.:ugh:

Krusty
 

There are 2 streams, one for "cleanskins" and one for "Advanced cadets".

The advanced cadets paid about $60k through salary sacrifice and then through reduced salary as a Junior FO - as someone said above, a Junior FO cannot hold an ATPL and Jetstar won't or can't employ a cadet as a "Full" FO.

One of my employees fell into this one - he had already given notice and we have already filled his job :ugh:

I hope Oxford get drilled for this. It won't ruin his career but it's a hell of a knock for a confident young bloke :=

there's no 34R at MB

get your insults right

Do you work for an airline Jethro?
If not, then considering that all airlines charge for the selection process, it would be safe to assume that you will never apply to or work for an airline?
If you do work for one, how is the view from your seat? Pretty good?
Nice to be able sit up high and hang **** on guys who are only doing what it takes to get a job with the airlines these days.

Not one person has ever came out and said they agree with the way things are going. High paying G.A jobs are rare. So for guys who don`t have one of them, paying $30k for an endoresment that will give you a $30k payrise in your first year, makes perfect economical sense.

Case in point, Me.
I am enjoying my Jet* job? Yes.
Would I like to be payed more and not have payed for my endorsement? Absolutely.
Is it much more than I was on in G.A? Close to $40k more.
Do I like taking off out of Darwin and looking down at the piston`s I used to fly? More of a relief than anything.
Do I like being able to afford to live in a place with airconditioning and not neighbouring on an Aboriginal housing estate? You wanna believe it.
Do I feel bad for doing what I had to do to get where I am?
Not in the slightest. Cause they guy that would have taken my job had I not wouldn`t be giving the first damn thought about my plight.
I live in the real world , not your pilot fantasy land. Wake up to yourself.

Thanks Horatio'.

Should've read the first post more carefully.

$60K now for a Jet job, and wages comensurate with turbo-prop F/O (after salary sacrifice). Looks like the death of general entry to me!

Enjoy your povety boys and girls. :ooh:

Faaarck GA is a mess in this country. Is it better anywhere else on this planet ?

I'm not an aviation pro - recreational for me - but I am astonished at the attitude that seems to be prevalent here that you've just got to bend over and take it up the Rse.

Absolutely no way would that be acceptable in the IT world that I inhabit. Your employer needs you to have a particular skill that you don't yet have ? Then they pay for the training - the concept that I would have to pay for it myself so my employer could reap the benefit ? Ludicrously laughable !!! And this applies to ANY occupation, except, it seems, to flying an aircraft ???????????

Time for all you people to grow some cohones and say NO. Jethro is 100% correct, although his is a small voice (just like mine), and so will probably make no difference - because lots of you pilots out there working for money seem to have given up and resigned yourselves to dealing with the status quo.

You folks need a good strong union, or else get out of aviation and stop whinging.

PS. I really not having a go at pilots - this is a work issue - I'd say the same thing to brickies' labourers if they were in the same boat.... (yeah, mixing metaphors etc)

Here here BackPx.... Not a truer word spoken, perhaps I shall add my small voice to yours and together we shall make a slightly louder but still small voice....

....will it grow yet louder?

...And there it is from an "expert." The thing is, Back Pressure, in principle you are absolutely right. However, and by your own admission, you are commenting as someone on the sidelines who has the luxury of flying recreationally - rather than being in the thick of it as someone who actually is employed in this industry, and therefore has a very different perspective. As such, the comment, "don't judge a person until you've walked a mile in their shoes" comes to mind. I agree with you, only to the extent that I'm not in any kind of union organisation for the reasons you already suggest: we have no strong union in this industry; just fragmented groups that, for all their roaring, amount to little more than toothless tigers.

I'm not going to get into a long-winded rant about the many reasons people choose to be in aviation, suffice to say that once you've invested a significant part of your life - and life savings - into a particular profession, it's not always so straightforward to simply "get out and stop whinging." A return on the investment needs to be generated - even if for some it is a diminishing return. The saddest part is that our industry has come to the point where comments like Metrosmoker's are the norm, albeit completely understandable, i.e. "I should never have to pay for an endorsement to get a job, but if I don't, someone else will." In the end, you can always stand on principle with hand on heart and say NO, but doing so will only cut your nose to spite your face.

As for one of the organisations at the centre of this thread topic, I've had previous first-hand experience working for them in their former incarnation, and all I can say - with eyes rolling into the back of my head as I do so - is 'nothing surprises me.' I just thank God that this aspect of my career in aviation is now a distant memory.

Metrosmoker;

Two years ago the airlines were complaining that they can't find pilots and were hirning just about anyone. So just a year or so later everyone is so desperate (or impatient) to get a jet job they will now shaft themselves out of future income?

But not only are you paying at least $30k upfront, most are agreeing to very reduced terms and conditions. I think the overall value being given up here is far and above Krustys' $210k when you count in the income lost over a career compared to a number of years ago, think long term not just the next few years.

I spent a long time in GA when the airlines were not hiring anyone, have not paid for a job or endorsement since I started working many years ago.

This unfortunately sums up most pilots attitudes to each other. The aviation world is the fantasy world, where else would workers pay $30k for a job for which they already hold the relevent qualifications, the endorsement is the companies problem as they see fit to pay for it once your employed (because they have too!). Tell an engineer to pay $30k to learn the individual characteristics of the building he will be paid to maintain or charge a truck driver one third to half his income to learn how to drive the new rig you bought for him to drive. You will get a very blunt answer.

43Inches I think your argument is a bit flawed there. Most adds I see for truck drivers require that the applicant already hold the required licence before applying for the job.

If, however, your current employer deicdes to buy a new rig for you, then that is a different story. In that case I would expect an employer to bear the cost of training you to operate it. Just like I would expect J* to bear the cost of training their employees to operate the new 787s when they arrive.

Don't get me wrong, I do not agree with this pay-for-type rating crap, just I don't see the logic in your argument.

Heavy ridgid licence cost me $500aud including test a few years back, first years work at least $30,000 and up. But thats not the point, The HR Licence is like getting your CPL, it allows you to drive that range of vehicles. What i'm getting at is if you decided to work for someone who then operated a Kenworth for example would you pay out another $10k for training on it?

CASA just mandates a specific type endorsement and minimum training for each type. The airlines then to save money (and make some) has passed that cost onto you as the pilot. I have no problem with pilots paying for their initial training, but to pay to train on someones particular equipment to offset the cost of operating and compete with established operators is beyond reasonable. Everybody loses in the end as the only way to compete with workers subsidising their operations is to eventually do the same yourself.

Anyone believe in karma?:}

LOL I wouldn't work at OAA just get single engine 172 time 2000 hours 172 day VFR great hours no chance of getting on the c90 :} plus doing IFR in a aircraft that has out of date GPS databases :ugh:
:D

the old boss is out guys, the boys from england run the show now.

Really? I heard they kept him on in a "consulting" capacity. Oh well, no love lost there. The former CFI was an absolute gentleman & one of the best bosses I ever had in this or any other industry, but as for RC, I think it best I bite my tongue and say as little as possible.

Any other ATPL holders?
 

If there are any other ATPL holders out there sucked in by this mob:

OAA have basically taken you for a ride and you are out of pocket for something you were NEVER eligible for.

Did you lose a day (or more) of paid work for this?

Did you travel from interstate for this?

How far out of pocket are you?

Whether you got the position or not, ATPL holders never got what they thought they were paying for: a shot at Jetstar.

If Jetstar/OAA aren't going to accept ATPL holders for the Advanced Cadetship, then every ATPL holder who applied is entitled to claim from OAA not only their $330 application fee but every expense incurred in reliance upon OAA's statements.

At least one fella has lost his position - how are OAA going to compensate for that? :=

I must say this is a massive balls up!

What is the state of play at the moment with this whole program? does anyone actually know?

Flagg

Can anyone confirm the above statement that assessment days were conducted differently? This is also a major issue in the recruitment process.

Affirm. :)

$330.00 for the interview For F#&k Sake
I cannot believe people pay for an interview they should be paying for your time.:ugh:

Oxford screwed me too for BMI application some years back
 

Oxford (CSE as it was then) back in the UK have been doing this for years as they charged me £400 at the time for a BMI selection process, only to be told on the day; again after travelling to Kidlington at great expense, oh youve got too many hours (about 200hrs s.eng and passed my frozen ATPL exams), and youve too much experience and thanks for the money.... w**nkers


Never mind got a job the hard way and stuff them, now on B777 :ok:

fokkerplod

Its all part of the training to work for Jetstar. Get used to being ripped off right at the start will hold you in good stead for when you are sitting in your new airbus.

How are you going to get the stats tho? eg the amount of hours people had when they applied and what % got rejected who had a atpl and the % who didnt have a atpl? :}

Good luck jetstar will just say sorry this people didn't pass the interviews etc :rolleyes:

Are you saying a "junior" first officer is actually second in command of an A320 with 150 plus passengers who assume obviously wrongly that their plane is crewed by two very experienced pilots. :eek:

That's where you get the "budget" part of budget airlines isn't it? :}
Other than charging for food, the loo and carrying more than your wallet on board.

Why would they want to? Otherwise even those with the rose tinted glasses would see how maddenly bad this modern slavery is.

Why, as an ATPL holder, would you even apply for this 'scheme'?

On paper you are qualified for a number of other opportunities. Just wait and keep the hours building up.

WTF is the rush to get into a jet these days!?!

It's starting to get me down, the fact there aren't too many career options in Australian airlines anymore that you don't have to pay for. What a twisted industry. :(