|
ahaha I was warned about PPruNe.. full of pathetic and disgruntled GA pilots. How about taking your bitching elsewhere and let this thread fulfill its intended purpose: allowing those of us interested in the cadetship to discuss it. There's plenty of other forums for you to moan on. Have a read of the opening post. If you cant understand the concept of a particular discourse, then it's no wonder you cant understand the potential in this cadet program. Start a forum for yourselves and name it "the only thing I hate more than my life is cadetships".
|
I have around 800TT and got invited for the interview stage, but have since declined, Im having a good time in the GA industry so im going to stay here and ill get to the airlines eventually, the only think that really attracts me to the airlines is the salary, but i wish luck to all those who are going through with their applications, im sure there will be many ppl waiting for those succesful applicants to tell the real story
|
Hey mighty_mouse, that has to be the "Wind-up" of this thread!
At least I hope it is? :sad: |
Two words of warning:
1. Get a private tax ruling to confirm you can pay the training costs back in pre tax dollars. 2. Always be wary of any organisation or business, where the recruitment department works on weekends. MC |
i did the testing on day 1 and was not successful.
Good luck to the guys going through it - it will be a tough process to get through to get in. But for me thats $1300 down the toilet....in flights, fee for assessment (what other industry charges you to apply for a job????), accom.... and hire car etc Its a risk that you take but I suppose if you want to have a chance at it you have to go for it. I think the scheme has merits. but as mentioned above there are a few question marks about the program. I dont think they would have been too picky on the number of people in stage 2 as when you think about it - its in their interests to have as many as possible pay for the privilige! (why have 50 people pay to sit an assessment when you can get 200!) And they wouldnt have 20000 applications - that is what the CEO said they were anticipating - but you have to be realistic! Good luck to all and to those who get accepted - certainly a great opportunity! |
Then it's no wonder you cant understand the potential in this cadet program. Potential?:yuk: |
Doing some very rough figures, I am not an accountant and I'm sure it's a lot more complex then this plus I'm making the FALSE assumption that you can neatly deduct both the loan and FEE-help from gross salary.
FALSE because: DEEWR Tax deductibility of repayments Your repayments of HELP debts are not tax deductible. If your payer makes repayments for you, they may be able to claim a tax deduction. However, they will be liable for Fringe Benefits Tax (FBT) on the repayments. Bonus for voluntary repayments If you make a voluntary repayment of $500 or more, you will receive a bonus of 10% of the repayment you make. Example: Tinka owes $5,250. She makes a $2,500 voluntary repayment. Tinka gets the 10% bonus, so the value of her repayment is now $2,750 ($ 2,500 x 1.10). Tinka’s bonus amount is $2,750 - $2,500 = $250. Her total debt after the payment is reduced to $2,500 ($ 5,250–$ 2,750). If your total debt is less than $500 and you make a voluntary repayment to pay off the total amount, you will still receive the 10% bonus.
APPFO Course = $124456 = $85062 FEE-HELP + $39394 Loan A320 Rating = $30000 = $21000 Jetstar + $9000 Loan Subtotals $48394 Loans $16157 Loan interest (10% ??? over 6 years) $85062 FEE-HELP $21265 FEE-HELP repayment fee (25%) Total repayments: $170878 $28480 P/A over 6 years JFO narrowbody salary = $55454 gross = $26974 after repayments = $23828 net FOL1 narrowbody salary = $84720 gross = $56240 after repayments = $45818 net FOL2 narrowbody salary = $92422 gross = $63942 after repayments = $50909 net I guess the real question is how long it takes to get off JFO and start earning a livable wage? |
Don't forget that in addition to the 25% "loan fee" the balance of the FEE-HELP debt is increased by the CPI % each year for outstanding balances.
Assuming that the amount repaid to jetstar over the 6 years is taken from gross salary and therefore remaining salary falls beneath the threshold for FEE-HELP repayment, during the initial years the FEE-HELP debt will grow by approx. $97k (ie an additional 12k) assuming no FEE-HELP is repaid in the first 6 years and a CPI of 2.5%. Consequenty the cashflow will not be as severe as has been suggested. FEE-HELP will be repaid over a much longer period although the total amount paid will increase significantly. |
From what I have read the Jetstar cadetship is a modern version of the Indian Indentureship. I would tread very carefully.
|
You know tsubasa27, those numbers are truely disturbing. It's one thing to slug it out for years in G/A, the low pay, the risks and the general uncertainty of it all. Eventually however one might just make it into a reputable airline, start earning decent money, and finally plan for the future.
It's a completely different thing, at a young age, to mire yourself in debt for a position that not so long ago was considered the end result of all that labour! Now the position is just the beginning, but unfortunately for many it will be the end of the line also. A professional domestic airline pilot earning less than minimum wage, trapped in a position that will garrentee years of financial harship! Does anyone see the potential for some future psycotic episodes in this? :{ |
I must go along with KRUSTY on this one.
A big thank you to all future cadets who will consign right seat jet jobs to the bottom of the food chain. I offer you all the following to think about when you sign yourselves up to years of debt and the devaluing of your own qualifications If you do not consider a jet job (either seat) as the pinnacle of a sustainable long term mortgage paying and family raising career then what for you guys is? If you guys forever consign one seat in jets to training wages then you halve the number of guys who have half a chance of respectably raising families and paying mortgages in the capital cities you are forced to live in. You will be buying yourself a job that ultimately wont be worth having. |
I can see the pride and professionalism one might get from flying a big airliner. But you talk to all the captains of today, and they only do it for their financial benefit and most have their own means of fun outside the airlines (aerobatics etc). GA is the most fun you will have flying, real stick and rudder skills. Completely different skill sets to that of flying a big jet.
Once again im not having a go at any cadets or the people who show interest in this program, merely trying to express a point of view for those who havent experience GA yet but are having their minds made up by a glossy brochure |
For those who haven't heard of the Indian Indentureship do a Google search. Here's an extract about it from Wiki answers
This was the arrival of East Indians from India to the Caribbean countries to replace the labour after the end of the Atlantic slave. Many Caribbean countries like Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana are a few of the many Caribbean nations that endure Indian Indentureship. Many of the East Indians were paid for their labour but in very very small amounts. The East Indians were promised a better way of life from the life many had in India but many soon came to the realization that their promised life was only a trap to get them to do the hard work the slaves no longer wanted to do. Cadetships have been used where there has been a lack of pilots to fill the junior ranks of airlines. That situation does not exist in this part of the world. There are plenty of qualified pilots who could work for Jetstar so why do they need to have a cadet scheme? The only conclusion I can come to, is to have a source of cheaper labour. In other words undermine what the current pilots are being paid. I would suggest that any prospective cadet look at what the likes of OAA and CTC have done with the UK cadet market. They have flooded that market with pilots with brand new licences who are unable to find a job or at least a proper full time job. They will do the same here, they will need to train more than just the pilots that Jetstar needs in order to sustain their operations. Their focus is on making money, their marketing is very good but they don't tell you the whole story. I don't have a problem with cadets as such but I do have a real problem with the promoters of the likes of the Jetstar cadet programme and outfits like OAA, CTC etc. |
Jetstar Fail
Despite reservations, I applied for the Advanced Cadet Programme. Rejected because 1)MECIR isn't current & 2) No ATPL subjects.
To qualify, my reservations are almost exactly what the last few posts have said about diluting the industry by allowing newbies straight into the RHS of a jet. However, I figured, 6 relatively expensive years later my career would be set. Looks like I'm sticking it out in GA. Not too worried really, At least this way there will be a sense of satisfaction on receiving a yes letter 5 years down the track and the knowledge of having earned a RHS. If it sounds too good to be true - it probably is. Good luck to those who get in, hope it goes well. Just a reminder - this is a CHOICE you are making. This is not the only way into the airlines or into a flying job. And if you can afford the debt associated with the ACP or Ab Initio programme then you can probably afford a CPL and go it your own way. |
Be warned kids. As far as I understand it, they will pay ‘junior FO’ rates until the cadet holds an ATPL. I’m sure that those considering this path are aware of the requirements to be issued with an ATPL. For those that aren’t, CAR 1988 5.172 states amongst other things:
1,500 hours flight time of which a minimum MUST be 250 hours command or 500 hours ICUS. Point 1. 1,500 hours of flight time, as FO you can only count 50% therefore 3,000 hours of total aeronautical experience. Expect at least 3.5 years to achieve this. Point 2. 250 hours command or 500 hours ICUS. I doubt very much that they will be conducting ICUS operations. Perhaps if you were coming up for a command they may include it as part of your command training. So expect to be on the JFO salary for more than the 6 years unless you already have the command requirements! Be very careful about where they will base you also. Don’t expect to be living at home with Mum and Dad in Brisbane waiting for your command, expect to be in Darwin or Singapore or whatever new offshore base they will start in the near future. The most important point of all, airline flying is incredibly boring 99% of the time. GA days are tough and thankless but some of the most enjoyable and rewarding flying you will ever do. You get to fly into places that very few people get to visit, you get to fly over some spectacular scenery that other people pay for the privilege. You will have life experiences and tales to pass onto your children about things that you did rather than things that the jet did while you watched. |
How is it a Jetstar fail?
Did you even read the eligibility for the ACP? No wonder you were knocked back... |
travelator, have they changed the regs? It was my understanding that of the 250 hours command required for the ATPL, 150 hours can be ICUS. That leaves 100 hours of "pure" command to be filled. Most Cadetships provide for approx 70 hours non ICUS command, so that will leave the applicant, without any previous experience, some 30 hours short!
When you consider the numbers put up by tsubasa27, the cadets in question will be flat out paying their light bill let alone finding the money, or the time for that matter, to go out and fly privately the additional 30 hours? 6 years to a pay rise? Try the prospect of never! :sad: |
IMO the cadet in such a program is really a scab. The flying schools used to be full of them working for free all week for a couple of scab hours being thrown at them for flying at a marginal rate.
Those same Pilots that refuse to leave the eastern suburbs in Mummy and Daddys pad will be all over this. They don't want to move north and have to work for a living! This to them is the dreaded truth of aviation that they would try and avoid at all cost. I met heaps of them in the schools. I have no problem with cadets in the right program where the airline pays and gives you an SO slot with a career ahead. This program stinks. J3, love your work about the wannabes hahahaha cracked me up! |
Anyone know what the difference is between doing the ACP with Oxford or CTC?
|
Anyone know what the difference is between doing the ACP with Oxford or CTC? The handcuffs aint gold anymore, they are made of plastic. Cheap, recyclable and painfully tight. Management must be sitting around drinking cognac reading this thread having a great laugh at Pilots. |
What a laugh! :)
I dont see anything wrong with any of the paths really. If anything, the old way has always seemed to me to be the more 'dodgey' option, throwing a low experience pilot into single pilot ops doing all those scary bush pilot things as apposed to puting them next to a experienced captain flying from one big airport to the next to learn the ropes, which i think is much more aligned to what happens in every other industry. All this 'buy your job' bull**** peole go on with, what the hell do you think little johnny in grade 1 is doing? his parents are paying for his education just like every other kid in australia has for decades and will until the day johnny graduates as a doctor, lawyer, whatever! Its the way the world turns people, why is it suddenly criminal when you replace 'doctor, lawyer whatever' with 'pilot'? Every one in GA brought their <5700kg endorsment and CPL didnt they? Its the same thing, just a smaller scale. Pick which way you wanna go, and everyone else have the decency to be nice and respect their decision. |
Krusty, not changed I just omitted that option.
5.172 Aeronautical experience: minimum requirements (1) For the purposes of paragraph 5.165 (1) (f), a person’s aeronautical experience must consist of at least 1,500 hours of flight time that includes 750 hours as pilot of a registered aeroplane, or a recognised aeroplane. (2) The 750 hours must include: (a) any of the following: (i) at least 250 hours of flight time as pilot in command; (ii) at least 500 hours of flight time as pilot acting in command under supervision; (iii) at least 250 hours of flight time, consisting of at least 70 hours of flight time as pilot in command and the balance as pilot acting in command under supervision; and (b) at least 200 hours of cross-country flight time; and (c) at least 75 hours of instrument flight time; and (d) at least 100 hours of flight time at night as pilot in command or as co-pilot. Therefore the following three scenarios are possible: 1. Cadet has less than 70 hours command time, subsection iii does not apply, therefore 500 hours ICUS is required. (subs ii) 2. Cadet has more than 70 but less than 250 hours command, the balance can be made up of ICUS (max of 180) as per subsection iii. 3. Cadet has more than 250 hours command then they already meet part of the requirement. I don’t know what the experience levels of those applying are but I would doubt many fall into the third option. Those that would require ICUS, answer me this. Why would Jetstar offer ICUS flying to them? It would mean that these cadets would then have to be paid the same as a qualified FO so why bother having cadets in the first place? You WILL be stuck on this low pay for a very long time. I don’t want to get into the debate about cadets versus GA (because I am ex GA and therefore biased). I want those that are looking at this scheme to think carefully. Do not be fooled into thinking that the pay will improve, it won’t for a very long time. Don’t be fooled into thinking that you will be living where you want, you will be living where you are told for a very long time. At least if you slog it out in GA, nobody will own your soul and you have control over your career. |
Fly by Desire
Have a read of post #51 and see what answers you come up with. Your comparison with doctors etc is not analogous (sp?), and if you knew more about the industry you would see that. |
For all the mud Jetstar are getting over wages, they're by no means the worst out there. Googling yielded:
V Aus Pre-FO 50000 FO 117500 Captain 179000 Tiger FO 105000 Captain 175000 Qantas (767, minimum hours) FO 93600 Captain 169520 J* Pre-FO 55454 FO 84720 Captain 154037 VB FO 81150 Captain 151400 ANZ (737, $Kiwi) Pre-FO 70000 FO 70000 Captain 120000 QLink FO 51674 Captain 79424 Rex :suspect: Pre-FO 30847 FO 42271 Captain 69691 Of course the general conditions vary greatly between all of them. The real issue is the training costs, which you'll pay OAA $87k for instead of the $50k a typical flying school CPL+MECIR would take. The banks and government will take their slice too. The A320 rating training is also pricey compared to others as was pointed out in the other thread. On the other hand, if you can survive 6 years on a modest income and missing out on all the "fun" up north then at least you'll probably be free to either stay on and look at gaining command in the next few years or having enough experience to start again at the carrier of your choice. |
I'm glad someone brought up the FEE-HELP repayment fees (it's 20%), most have been forgetting that. The scheme seems great in theory and I can't deny I've considered it as well as the Qantas one, but seriously guys, imagine yourself living off 20 to 30k a year in a capital city (if those figures are right) if you're posted in one...rent alone could take up up to half of that at only $200 a week.
Am I right in saying that the figures tsubasa27 came up with also don't take into account HECS debt, or whatever it's called now? Also, doesn't the FEE-HELP cover the flight training and HECS cover the Associate Degree? So why is this program so much? I just spent 4 years at uni and my debt is only 25k, if that. This scheme is 1.5 years at uni (Associate Degree), so should be quite cheap shouldn't it? Does that mean flight training is...over $140k?? I'm lost. |
Lets hear your take on doctors as a comparison then waren..! Personally I think that they are mostly overrated and overpaid for what they achieve though their own efforts. At least an experienced Captain makes life and death decisions for up to hundreds of passengers, in real time, during every flight. They should be better paid than the Learner doctors, who need a second opinion, are too busy to see you at the appointed time, or at all if you don't come from their Area (very unionlike towards their fellow doctors), and can never fix a problem on a first visit but keep you coming back for another consultation or referral (with fee paid before you leave please). Individual doctors go on 'strike' in their own way to get what they want in the way of the lifestyle or remuneration they have come to expect (so much for the Hippocratic Oath). At least dentists get on with the job first visit. How often do doctors get their health tested to enable them to keep practicing? How often do they get assessed on their ability ? Young pilots sell themselves short, if they have this mindset now that it's the only way and they should borrow 100 grand to buy the prospect of a career in the airline profession, then accept rubbish remuneration. There was a time when the 'cosy two' airlines pilots used to strike just before Easter and other public holidays to get salary increases, all changed now, but not all because of the workplace economics, most of it is because people roll over and just let themselves be pushed into accepting 'spin'. Noone gets what they deserve, they get what they negotiate. To complain later is to misunderstand the issue.
|
I'm glad someone brought up the FEE-HELP repayment fees (it's 20%) On 2 November 2009, the Australian Government announced that, subject to the passage of legislation, the FEE-HELP loan fee will increase from 20 per cent to 25 per cent for undergraduate students enrolled in units of study with a census date on or after 1 July 2010. You're quite right that you certainly won't be buying a house or renting anything outside the outer suburbs on that income, I think most will need to seriously think about shared houses or moving back in with parents until you're earning the real FO wage. |
Thanks for clarifying all of that tsubasa, the gov site I went to stated 20%.
As for the doctor argument, the last 4 I've been to have diagnosed me via Google haha. |
IMO 27/09, and Green Goblin have pretty much hit the nail on the head :ok:. I think the view of this program by alot of the Ab initio kids, is that they are all wrapped up with the idea that they will be living it up with a splendid salary, big engines, & the glamor of being and airline pilot - without giving it alot of though interms of contract years, and financial matters.
There is nothing wrong with the cadetship, so long as those who apply are also aware of the disadvantages. I also applied for this too and am quite comfortable with all the bullcrap that goes with it. However I have not yet recieved a reply for my application, and frankly I dont mind if I dont get an interview. lol There is nothing wrong with GA, and if I end up in GA for a number of years "so what?" I will be able to work my way up knowing that I have tried to earn a seat in an airline. As they say "hard work never hurt anyone" Congrats to those who get in - BUT be aware of what you are getting into. |
I have been following this thread and its predecessor with interest but I have a question which is based on what I believe is happening overseas at Ryanair which I believe is the model for this cadetship.
At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO? If not then any prospective cadets should be thinking whether the experience gained will be sufficient to get a job elsewhere (most likely overseas as A320 experience has limited currency in Australia). |
So how does this cadetship compare to the Qantas one? Has anyone done the sums on it and pros/cons in comparison?
|
At least an experienced Captain makes life and death decisions for up to hundreds of passengers, in real time, during every flight. Dr :8 |
I applied for the ab initio last Tuesday and got the call up from OAA on Saturday during the day. At the moment I've accepted the interview and I'm meant to be going down to Melbourne to complete the 2nd stage this week. However, I no longer have any interest in actually entering into a cadetship with J* because the negatives far outway the positives for me. Seeing as I'm living in QLD, just going down for stage 2 will cost me around $1000 and I really don't have that kind of money to spend on an interview where I could be turned back after 3 hours of tests. Not to mention the exorbitant cost of the cadetship itself! I'm planning on contacing them tomorrow to cancel my interview.
Goodluck to everyone that goes onto Stage 2, just make sure that you have a serious, serious think about the cadetship before you sign anything. To me, heading to GA after I get my qualifications seems to be the best way to go. Anyway, that's just my two cents in between all this animosity..! |
Mate, if you didn't fly, - without the insight that you now so obviously have,- and it was 100 years ago - you would be no different from the superstitious masses. Why do you think the people went wild over Hinkler and Kingsford-Smith in the twenties and thirties. I applaud them for their courage for 'having a go' and ' being the first' and 'being the best of their generation' and being the 'pioneers', not just because some one else thought they were the local heros. Kingsford-Smith even accepted the position of patron of our local Club, so there is a personal connection, but ultimately it was because they had a go and succeeded - for a while -. The smart a*ses and carpet-baggers come later, but my hat goes off to the PIONEERS, so the pilots (and doctors and hangers-on) who come later with nothing to contribute but criticism about how it could have been done better at the time - can go jump. Bet the Wright Brothers were told numerous times that they were mad too, even though they approached the solution of powered flight in a structured technical way building on the experience of all the pioneers who had gone before.
And after the Wrights there were other pioneers who advanced the art at the cost of their lives put on the line, - sometimes forfeited. What other industry, medicine ? dentistry ? agriculture ? horticulture ? animal husbandry ? - does it to that degree ? |
So how does this cadetship compare to the Qantas one? Has anyone done the sums on it and pros/cons in comparison? |
At the end of the 6 years as a junior FO (or whatever it is called) is there any guarantee that Jet* will retain your services as a full FO? If not then any prospective cadets should be thinking whether the experience gained will be sufficient to get a job elsewhere (most likely overseas as A320 experience has limited currency in Australia). The chances of further employment outside of the scheme without any additional experience is pretty close to naught. I'm not sure of the chances of work in GA either. Perhaps with another small investment in some 210 time? I also think you'll find that with the number of out of work A320 drivers in the UK, the limited experience and lack of JAA ATPL the Ausy guys will not be employable in the EU. Perhaps UAE or Asia? It would be great if someone could confirm or deny this as it was the way I had interpreted the original page on the J* site. It seems that the answer to the above would be extremely important to anybody applying to this program and anyone who has a definitive answer should inform those wishing to continue with their application process. |
Can't really blame the kids for applying, or for not really listening to any advice not to apply. I applied for the QF cadetship a few years ago, shortly after I got my CPL - the reason being in my mind the only purpose for existence in aviation was to fly big shiny jets in the shortest amount of time possible. Even the concept of a single multi-command hour back then was super-exciting. Of course, as you progress in GA you learn about how the world really works, or how it should.
I certainly wouldn't have listened to any advice to not apply for the QF cadetship, as what possible reason could exist to NOT want to be up the front of a 747 in a Q uniform 2-3 years after being issued a CPL? Of course now I consider myself wiser, and this cadetship leaves me shaking my head a little. I suppose my point is - don't expect any reasonable percentage of applicants to care in the slightest about comments on how they're "wrecking the industry". It's not until they've been up the front of that jet for a while that they'll probably start to realise that the other road, while harder and more frustrating, most likely leads to a brighter future. At this stage, they have very little industry knowledge, and just have their eyes fixated on the big jet they could be flying. I don't see it as any different to people paying thousands of dollars for the privilege of flying some ICUS in a piston twin - blame the operator, but you can't blame the person forking over the cash - they simply don't know any better. |
Not everyone that has applied for this cadetship has no experience. I know of 5 people, including myself, that have between 1500-3000 total time that have applied. None of us have the minimums to get into an airline directly ( not enough twin time or night hrs). It comes down to this for me ; I am sick to death of the lack of safety culture in GA. I don't regret the flying or the experiences I have but I simply am feedup of the exhuasting mentality in GA. I want to fly aircraft that are safe and work for a company that has high standards. End of story!
I have applied for CTC and I have a date for stage 2 testing in Hamilton in July. If anyone else is going to Hamilton and wants to make contact please PM me. |
Does anyone know whats involved for the ACP selection after the initial one day Computer based test and interview? It says if the ab-initio guys are successful they will then have an interview at Jetstar in Melbourne but it doesn't specify what the process is for the ACP.
|
Im not sure about the next stage of ACP - I kinda assumed it would be the same as the ab-initio guys (i.e. followed by an interview with actualy Jetstar people in MEL again) although I am shuddering at the cost. I will be asking them what the next process is this week at my interview.
Does anyone know what the skills assessment/inital interview involves for the ACP? I guess Maths, personality, motivation... any news on specifics yet? |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 08:46. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.