best twin for training?
 

Morning ppl,

Firstly,as a newbie to this game reading these forums for a while now(almost a year) Iv had some great laughs and learnt a lot. This is just more of a general interest/training question.

Im about to start my training for my cpl and adding a MECIR onto it in one go, as to where Im doing this isnt important(seems to be a hot topic, and no...its not REX). But they do their training in a twin comanche.

My question is...what is the best small twin to have an endorsment on? From research Iv done Beech, Chieftian and the Comanche seem to be fairly well used, but which one do most operators use or favor? I know endorsments and a job on a twin is a bit off for a fresh CPL, but Id like to know if once I complete this endorsment, am I going to have to look at doing a rating for another type sooner rather than enjoying the rating I have already? How keen are operators to get you endorsed on their type if your not already rated? I mainly asume that time and $ are the key factors, but is it a big hassel or par for the course?

Cheers:ok:

If you can do it in a BE95 travelair I'd recommend it. It covers the Be55 endo and if you can get 55/58 time that will get you up to speed on 310s and Ac50's which are the types you're more than likely to fly in your first twin job. Consider a PA31 endo down the track, at over $600/hr dual (for a nav let alone a chief) you'd be mad to do your MECIR in one... Unless you're Rick Kelly.

The 95 is very forgiving but is a good intro into twins and the Baron. They're a lot cheaper than barons 310s or similar aircraft to hire but you end up with "3" endo's. The 95 is readily available in Melbourne and once you hold your MECIR you wont have any problems hiring a BE55, a 58 will need about 100ME CMD. Both the 95 and 55 are very capable aircraft, the 95 CAN carry 5pax at about 160KTAS but its a stretch the 55 does it easy and at about 175KTAS. These are reputable speeds for any GA piston machine and will teach you good engine management and approach planning. :ok:

Not sure if thats available to you but I hope that advice helps.

Good luck.

Wow, I never had the money to consider anything above a crappy Seneca for a twin endo. (That and the fact that operators heard I was coming and hid their nice aircraft and only hired the aircraft to me that they wanted to collect insurance on.) There's a lot to be said for flying a piece of low performing junk in your training. It makes you keep an eye and ear on everything, you get to know what's under the floor through the holes in the carpet, you make doubly sure of the undercarriage linkages, it makes the move to a higher performing aircraft much more exhilarating and even Tour de France riders look at your legs with envy after a week of single engine work.

The best is the cheapest serviceable twin you can get your hands on.

Stick to the singles mate and learnt to crawl before you can walk. A CPL is a licence to learn and once you operate a single commercially you will work out how much you don't know.

GG

Yeah, the MECIR can wait, you'll only need to keep it current which will set you back lots of $$$ as torque said. Cut your teeth on singles, get some experience and you'll find flying a twin no worries when the time comes.

When I did my CPL, instead of a night rating I did a SECIR. Was a good intro to IFR procedures and a lot cheaper to keep current. When the time came, instead of doing a renewal I did my initial twin endo and upgraded to a MECIR which was quite a simple process :ok:

Just something to think about anyway

Best twin for the initial twin is a PA-30 Twin Comanche.

I did my initial twin/constant speed/retractable in the PA-30 with a total of 100 hours in my logbook, and then was offered a very good deal by the owner and finished up doing my CPL in the same aircraft.

John Lindsay from the CAA did my CPL flight test in the aircraft and after putting me through the hoops was happy to sign me out.

Just to prove that a lot of Pprune experts know sweet fa about aviation, my first cpl job was flying a Partenavia around for a small charter company.

Cheapest
 

Good move. Do you Instrument rating so you can start getting the renewals each year. A lot of companies have requirements for so many renewal to join. I got through GA and Regionals.

If you don't have a night rating, don't bother. Do your 5 hours solo in the circuit in a 152 and get on with it. You could do your 50 hrs X-country, night solo and get straight into your IR, knock off a few more hrs and do your CPL flight test. It saves you ca$h. It did for me 12 years ago. You would be more than up to speed for the CPL test.

The cheapest is the best and you can add on later if you wish. Duchess was the cheapest when I done mine and nice to fly. :ok:

Enjoy mate, you will learn a lot doing the Instrument Rating. :)

Aero 145

:E

Where do you new guys get the money up-front from? Is it Daddy's, have you made a killing on the stock market trading futures before your 21st birthday, or have you convinced a bank to give it to you on the 'never never'? That's probably why we have the GFC.. (Its not MY debt).
Had done a year instructing on singles, and another 3 or 4 general charter (with a little time out doing something else) before the company allowed me to hire their Baron at a reduced rate for my first twin. Then it was another 3 years before the opportunity for a MECIR was available.. Know things change, and we all want to get ahead quickly, but really.. Hope you have been a quick learner and you have had some exposure to 'what can go wrong' before my relatives travel in an aircraft with you..

Frigatebird, although I agree to some extent of what you say about newbies affording everything up front remember that not all start out their flying career as their first job these days. Many work very hard in another industry to get the funds together to be able to afford to pay for their own training, I know thats how I did it.

Well done !!

And thats how I did it too.. Didn't get my Commercial til I was 23, and the Aero Club allowed me to put half the Instructor Rating on the a tab which was reduced as I did an hour instructing for them. Ways and means..

Was just asking the modern way..

John Lindsay from the CAA did my CPL flight test in the aircraft

and a fine fellow, the angry ant ..... fond memories of several renewals with John.

Suggest considering the Partenavia for the initial foray ? Nice, stable, easy to operate I/F platform (fuel crossfeed idiosyncrasies aside) .. you can then worry about the other nastier animals later on.

Peter Fanelli, Did'nt you do your initial MECIR in the same smoke filled Seneca 1 that I did?:confused::hmm::eek::ugh:

'Those were the days!!':D

Yes I did Pinky, I think it should be law that initial twin endorsements and instrument ratings must all be done in smoke filled Senecas!

Slow learner? :ugh:

Yeah mate.. but thorough -- and a survivor --

Wished someone had told me to leave the MECIR till later after finishing the CPL. As I found out, the first 2 or 3 years in GA it was as useless as tits on a bull!!:ugh::ugh::ugh:Then spending $$$$$ to keep it current???????

So 3x from Melb, how fast did you do it, and whose money did you use..?

Who gives a rat's?

Too embarassing to admit to, if its any of the three..
Some only slag, without offering benefit of experience.. sad really.
Right .. who gives a rats.. nuff said

Light hearted humour, it's not about how smart you are, it's how much money you have and for most under 25's without a real job it's mostly mummy and daddie's money............

Main reason im asking about it is that its offered in the package and the SECIR it dosnt seem to be widely offered as most places are doing it the MECIR way. Like I said, just curious if the endo on the type was a widely used one or will it just be something on a resume and costing me $. One thing is Ill still be able to fly under IFR in a single right?

Frigatebird, I guess with the GFC being my fault I should feel bad. Perhaps you didnt get enough pats on the back from your instructor while you did your licence.

I should of mentioned that Im 25 and didnt come down in the last shower when it comes to money and saving it etc. Maybe that would of saved all of us that little rant. But, if I choose to fund this by dealing coke I can, because its none of your business. Next time your upset because life isnt fair and someone else wants to have a go, walk into the kitchen and drink some window cleaner:ok:

Hey Newby, thats a great attitude, possibly choosing to deal coke and advocating suicide..hope you go far in aviation with that....
Why do you fellas get all angry and agro when legit questions are asked? Thanks for the background, but hey, don't wish your fellows aviators dead. I gave you the benefit of my circumstance (albeit some time ago now) as a yardstick. You answered in your last post how you are doing it, fine, so why the vindictiveness. Everyone is an original, we all have our likes and dislikes, but we are a community, and sometimes communication is the hardest thing to get right. All the best for your future. :(

Amendment..

Actually I spelt it wrong.. should have been newy -- after your location -- and the fact it was your admitted first post - (third now according to the sidebar) - what the heck :uhoh:

My friend, the vindictivness comes from your post insuating that I was some young pup who thought money came free from a hole in the wall and didnt know my head from my @ss. Calling me a newbie makes you also come across as someone with a very long nose to look down apon us all. You should know what you posted, and to expect someone to give you no attitude after it is just plain dumb. Or atleast someone who has a brain.
I read conistantly newbies getting flamed on here and then never return becuse they are afraid of replies like your inital one. I am not, and like I said, been reading this for quite some time now.

But, if you have something of use to say about my question, Im very happy to take your thoughts and opions on board, like I have with everyone else who replied. Which is why I posted it in the first place. I asked if the aircraft they use is widely used or am I going to have to shell out more of my money later on a totally new rating instead of keeping this one current.

So lets open the lines of communation:ok:

Ha... didn't take long for this thread to go pear shaped:rolleyes:

However, back to the topic:

Get in the cheapest, oldest most decrepit aircraft you can find with a fixed card ADF and no GPS...you will reap the benefits for years after.

j3

be 55 or 58

No drama's in doing your MECIR upfront if you have a job lined up. I had a mate who did that and was using it within 9 months. I too would have been using mine within 9 months if I had of done it, instead I had to take time off work to knock it down. Lucky it was a wet winter and there wasn't much work.

Put simply its not always best to split them. I do not regret splitting mine, as everyone has said it gives you more time to consolidate your CPL before jumping in the deep end.

But that wasn't your question. Valuable aircraft to use for MECIR anything that is cheap that gives you other endo's that you can use in the real world.

MECIR first or last?
 

Whilst I understand the logic in terms of saving money etc, I'm not sure if that would work so well in the current job environment. I did my instrument rating at the end of last year which helped boost my total time from about 195 to 230 or so. It doesn't seem like much but I'm unsure whether I would have landed my current job without that little bit extra. Then again I guess I'd be on the other side of the fence if I hadn't done it. I reckon it's easier to smash the MECIR after CPL when you're still in the study mood. It's been 10 months since I finished mine and now I'm trying to work and study ATPL at the same time but I just can't find the time or energy.

Of course, the other issue is if you don't do it before getting a job, you need an employer willing to give you your entire annual leave in one chunk to get it done. Big ask for any employer.

I personally think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Either way you've got pros and cons. Doing it at any point in your career, it will enhance your skills both in a stick and rudder and procedural sense, probably much more than you anticipate.

And my money's on the Duchess. Easy to fly, handles nicely (though def underpowered) and very common so easy to get at a reasonable price.

Sorry to encourage the thread drift. :}

MECIR first or last?
 

Whilst I understand the logic in terms of saving money etc, I'm not sure if that would work so well in the current job environment. I did my instrument rating at the end of last year which helped boost my total time from about 195 to 230 or so. It doesn't seem like much but I'm unsure whether I would have landed my current job without that little bit extra. Then again I guess I'd be on the other side of the fence if I hadn't done it. I reckon it's easier to smash the MECIR after CPL when you're still in the study mood. It's been 10 months since I finished mine and now I'm trying to work and study ATPL at the same time but I just can't find the time or energy.

Of course, the other issue is if you don't do it before getting a job, you need an employer willing to give you your entire annual leave in one chunk to get it done. Big ask for any employer.

I personally think it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Either way you've got pros and cons. Doing it at any point in your career, it will enhance your skills both in a stick and rudder and procedural sense, probably much more than you anticipate.

And my money's on the Duchess. Easy to fly, handles nicely (though def underpowered) and very common so easy to get at a reasonable price.

Sorry to encourage the thread drift. :}

we heard you the first time...:}

Aerohooligan...twice for reiteration? :ok:

Ezz...Aerohooligan has put forward a couple of good points about it raising your total time and also the fact that it may be difficult to get the time off down the track to get it done. However, sure if you want to do it at a lower price, the Duchess is fine, but since your initial question was about which endorsement you will most likely find of benefit in the real world, I would probably recommend doing it on a Baron. The main reason for this recommendation being that if you do some research on the GA operators around, you will see a Baron in many of their fleets. Who knows though, you may find your first multi gig is on something completely different and for this reason it also may add to the cost effectiveness of waiting until you actually need it and can then get the required endorsement. Just my 2 cents :ok:

I guess it depends which road you decide to go down with regard your career at the end of the day as well. I went instructing for a couple of years... hence there was no need for an instrument rating straight up. However, I always had my SECIR which I kept current and it then made the transition to MECIR a piece of p%ss.

Doesn't really matter what you do it in... a basic twin of some description (you don't want to make life too hard for yourself). If you're looking for something that will cover you once you get a job, as others have suggested a baron/travelair, C310 or partenavia might be the go.

Pilotette...twice because my internet hates me and wants me to look like a spaz on pprune... :ok:

you need pprune to do that? I just need two beers, one and a half if they're heavies

j3

The main reason I am considering this is its offered in a way that is cost and time effective for me. Being 25 I dont want to fall too far behind and yes the extra hours do appeal to me. A very good point also about having to take a years worth of hols to do the rating, so that does make sense. Employers wont be too keen to give you time off to do it if they dont have a multi!

A more specific question would have been if the Cheiftan was a widely used type, but yes I noticed the Baron does pop up a lot. I also want to make myself as employable as possible with qualifactions that are usable in the real world, not just to fly a plane down at the local flight school. I know that a first job will not be on a twin (altho Im sure its happened somewhere, unfortunately my parents do not own a charter company) or flying alot of IFR, but all things considered, it just seems to make the most sense to me.

Cheers for all the input:ok:
Now, wheres those beers.......

I'm all for a MECIR after a CPL before you head north, or at least an initial mulit, I'm just against it for the CPL itself.

The CPL should be flown in a single, VFR nav perfected and you should display your PFLs at a high standard, there i every chance you may need them one day.

If you do the CPL in a twin, you will be required to do assy circuits etc. There is time to learn all that in your MECIR. As I said, crawl before you can walk.

I had 1000 hours before I touched a multi engine aircraft. The guys before me had over 3000 hours in many cases. (and 1000 of those doing bungles)

Save the coin for your years in poverty up north :{

GG, I understand what your saying and your concerns. In this case, from what the instructors and CFI have told me, the MECIR is started after the CPL syllabus is completed, not conducted in a multi. Im not trying to make this sound perfect or the best way, just trying to get all the facts out and make the most informed decision I can.
Admittedly, I wont have 1000 hours before I do it or perfect flying skills, but I will have completed the CPL and want to make myself the most employable package I can.

*EDIT* Im already practicing the poverty aspect funding this! lol

I know I'm going to get howled downfor this one, but don't bother with the partenavia or twin commanche endo's. Having spent a couple of years flying around up north I havent seen any operating, not commercially anyway. In fact, the only Partenavia I've seen is the busted out one sitting on the grass at Darwins GA. Although I do believe there are a few being operated in other areas, but not nearly as many as barons/310's. Might depend on where you think you'll go to find that first job to.

So I would go for the baron/travelair endo or a 310. Don't worry about the cheiftain, the chances of you landing a gig in 1 as your first twin gig is low.

Thats my thoughts.

The air up there, just to clarify your earlier comment about no Partenavias operating commercially up north, Alligator in Kunnunurra operate one and this is a fairly popular first job spot (you even said you knew this was coming). As for the original question I honestly wouldn't worry to much about what you did the MECIR or Initiall twin endorsement in when your time comes to jump in the twins most employers will pay for your endorsement if they are any sort of operator, sure if you could do it in a commonly used twin great but don't get to hung up on the idea. Of all the endorsements I have the only one I paid for was the Seminole I did my initiall twin and Mecir in, and yes never used it since so I guess you could say it was a waste but it did the job.