A format for a resume (non-aviation) once that really caught my eye was from an applicant who posted a small logo from each previous company he'd worked for in the left margin beside the relevant work experience. Probably broke copyright laws, but the result looked fantastic. He had the experience to get the interview too.

ANTI-DISCRIMINATION ACT 1991 - SECT 124
124 Unnecessary information

(1) A person must not ask another person, either orally or in writing, to supply information on which unlawful discrimination might be based.

(3) It is a defence to a proceeding for a contravention of subsection (1) if the respondent proves, on the balance of probabilities, that the information was reasonably required for a purpose that did not involve discrimination.

Example--
An employer would contravene the Act by asking applicants for all jobs whether they have any impairments, but may ask applicants for a job involving heavy lifting whether they have any physical condition that indicates they should not do that work.
This is from the Queensland Act, but I imagine they all have a similar escape clause.

Basically, if you can show that you asked for the information for a legitimate purpose, such as security checks (which is probably the Qantaslink excuse) you're in the clear.

I have some recruitment experience in the entertainment industry, where you can ask all sorts of questions that aren't usually allowed (about appearance, build, age etc) because these things are deemed integral to being a model / actor. Basically, you can't sue a strip joint for discrimination for not employing you as a stripper because you're an overweight fifty year old male. :}

My understanding is that you need to be careful that any questions you ask specifically pertain to the job you're advertising. In this way, asking someone if they're prepared to travel is okay if the job requires travelling, but asking them if they're married (and then assuming they're not prepared to travel) can be seen as discriminatory.

This post is a great guide to CVs, not just in aviation, and I've forwarded it to several school leaving friends who are looking for work :ok:

Damn! So much for that avenue for an exciting career change. But if you're hung like a horse?

johnriketes

If the person was clearly not qualified, they got the standard "thanks but no thanks" letter - but if they were otherwise excellent candidates and possibilities for the future, they got an email and a letter along the lines of "not right now but keep in touch". If I didn't have too much work on, they got a phone call.

If they were qualified and of interest to us, they got a letter and email explaining our current hiring position and advising them of a likely date for further contact. I then contacted them about once a month via email with updates, until they were either offered an interview or it was decided that their application would go no further, which I normally advised via email with the offer of a chat on the phone if they wanted to know why.

If they were qualified but not of interest to us, I once again emailed them and offered a phone conversation to explain why, and suggested ways to remedy the situation.

If we liked them and wanted to interview them, they got a phone call and a letter with a date for interview, selection day and sim check.

Every letter got a response, which took hours but was considered a good investment in our future recruitment landscape. I took the view that a company which claimed to value it's employees highly (as ours did), should also value prospective employees highly, and be consistent in it's treatment of everyone that had contact with us regarding employment. In other words, there shouldn't be a difference between the way a prospective employee and an actual employee is treated.

This worked well for us, and meant that when the pool of pilots started to dry up from time to time, we normally suffered less than most because our pool of applicants was larger and more loyal, as they appreciated our efforts to keep them in the loop.

Ozzie Mozzie

Maybe for smaller operators, but not for airlines, they'll just put you through it again anyway.

PDF is by far the safest. As you say, don't even consider .docx. If I can't open it, I won't read it! Although you should always try and send a paper one as backup.

Colour doesn't matter, I'm only interested in the information on the page. It doesn't help your application, but it won't hurt it either. It's just noise (and not very professional).

Tail wheel

That's real old school. You can tell an awful lot about someone from how they present themselves in a photo, particularly if you know how to "read" the photo. We insisted on them (as most airlines do these days), as they are a very useful screening tool.

Another little tip:

If you're emailing the resume, label the attachement so it's easy to file at the other end, eg. "Smith_J 102009". If you're slow mailing it, then make sure it is easy to find in the file cabinet.

I don't know of any airline that asks for a photo other than a photo copy of your driver's license and passport.

It was suggested in a recruiting book I read years ago that photo's on resumes were a big no no unless it was the industry norm (apparently for actors it's common) The book argued that (especially for girls) it sent out the wrong message and you might get ruled out by how you looked. Also girls might get ruled out too by actually looking too good. If you're some cracking sort 22 year old and the bosses wife is screening the resumes she might just accidentally lose your resume as you are seen as a threat. It was also suggested in the book that people are cynical about people who post up their photos. They were suggesting that the perception of people who put photos on resumes were trying to make up for a lack of ability.

Agree with most of the advice offered in this thread - but this has left me a bit cold. To suggest that you can, in any way, assess the suitability of a candidate from a head-and-shoulders photo on a resume seems quite far-fetched. I'd be interested in how this profiling is achieved... if the person looks fit, clean cut, military appearance, they're going to make a great pilot - and if they're overweight, balding, and don't have a striking smile - the CV gets binned?

Excepting, of course, if the person is dishevelled/unshaven/looking like rubbish in general, which would match some CVs I've seen.

In Australia, photos are out unless you're applying for something in entertainment that can actually use appearance as a deciding factor. Passport photos may be required in some cases (although I can't think of any offhand), but not as part of your CV.

You cannot judge someone's capabilities as a pilot based on a photograph. You might be able to judge their apparent professionalism, enthusiasm, and hygeine, but because you're assessing a photo it can be grossly inaccurate. You are leaving the door wide open to be discriminated against if you include one with your resume.

Having said that, photos can be useful as 'memory joggers' for an employer who wants to put a face to a name... Be very, very careful though!

If you're applying as a pilot, in most cases you want to use a resume instead of a CV. Academic positions and some other industries use CVs (which are longer and include more details - job descriptions etc). Resumes are shorter and are more about the headings rather than the explanations. Keep it to 2 pages max (one sheet).

Good Thread!

A few tips from my experience of employing over 300 pilots.

2 pages Max if you have a large amount of experience. 1 page is better. I do not want to read you personnel goals in aviation.

Must have Licence type, Medical Expiry, Instrument rating type and expiry, Total hours, Multi Command Hours in a place very easy to read. This info is the most important, if you have minimums the rest is read. If I can't find it on first glance it gets filed in file 13 instantly!

2 crew hours Command or F/O if the company operates Transport aircraft. If you have zero hours 2 crew - state it.

Instructor rating or Training and Checking experience if you have any.

Type Endorsements and hours in Command or F/O (include command endorsement if you have one but where only employed as a F/O).

I do not want to read every single you have flown. If you have never flown a twin – state it!

Do your homework, if the company you are applying too operates singles and C206 – state the hours on type if you have any. If they only operate twins, stating every single type you have flown just shows you have not done your homework!

If you have all ATPL subjects - state it. If you have 2 remaining - state it. I do not want to read every subject and result, just if you have all credits or not.

I am not interested in any way shape of form of an "Aviation Degree". All one of those tells me is that you have more money than sense!

I am not interested in references, I never call the ones you include as I can always find people who know you!

If you want to include marital status and age, go ahead, it shows you have nothing to hide. If you don't include it and you make it to interview and the position is out in the boondocks with single accommodation supplied, then it is up to you to accept or decline, you will get no special treatment to see your family and don't expect any!

Never send paper resumes, they get lost. Resumes emailed that have minimums get saved. Everything else goes in file 13. DON'T EXPECT A REPLY!

Don't include you photo; you have no idea if the girls in the office open all mail. If they do you will be scrutinised and remarks passed around!

Okay, so the sum total of the advice in this thread is to always include a photo because you can tell a lot from a bloke in a photo but don't bother including a photo because only quals/certs/experience matter, always include DOB/marital status/birthplace but, for the love of God, DON'T give your DOB/marital status/birthplace because it illegal to ask/opens potential employer up to litigation and you won't get an interview anyway and always include a cover letter as that's what gets read first but make sure your CV is up to snuff because that's what gets read first.

Cool, got it.

:ugh:

EDIT: Not meaning to come off that there's not some great advice in this thread as it applies to specific employers and I know those like remoak and others' hearts are absolutely in the right place, especially as they're offering their opinions for free.

But, really, as with every other industry, luck/personal preference/biases are massive factors. Many seem to think if you find the right CV template online, "Woo hoo JOB!", like it's an engineering process which you can refine. There are several general principles which generally work, sure, but generally, you have to play the %'s to get a job. If you go up to one chick in a pub and say "Nice shoes, wanna ****?", your chances of success are infinitely worse than if you ask the same question of 30 females in a night. And, even better, it only has to work once......

Wow I can't believe how far behind the world Australia is...

It has nothing to do with profiling at all. It is simply looking for cues... slovenly appearance, the afore-mentioned leaning over expensive sports cars, wearing of insignia that don't fit the candidate, etc. They all give little hints as to what you can expect from that person. However no recruiter would ever decide a candidate's suitability based on a photo; it simply gives some information on which later interview questions can be based.

Precisely. They are all part of the picture. Nobody hires pilots any more based solely on flying skill. We look for the whole person. Many airlines see their crews as front-line ambassadors for the company, which makes their appearance as critical as the cabin crew. In this context, they are little different to actors or other professionals whose appearance is an important factor.

All you are doing with a photo is having an early opportunity to do exactly what you do anyway in the first few seconds of an interview. To infer that requiring a photo implies discrimination is just ridiculous.

British Airways... Easyjet... Ryanair... flybe... the list goes on. The BA form even helpfully provides a box on the form for your photo. Many airlines, particularly Asian ones (Japan Airlines is a good example) have strict requirements around personal appearance and physical stature (ie fatties need not apply). There are still some airlines in the Middle East that frown upon pilots wearing glasses (in fact Cathay were like that until relatively recently).

I suppose what we are seeing is how out of step Australian HR practices are with the rest of the world. Whether you think that is a good thing is up to you. From a recruiter's perspective, it sounds very restrictive.

Actually remoak, as one who is insisting upon photos, your input here could help with a question I've thought about for a while. I'm physically fit but I'm a big bloke because I lift weights several times a week, play sports, etc. My previous job required something approximating that of a power athlete which means fit enough to run all day but physically strong enough to, say, kick someone's door in during the course of serving a warrant. Since leaving, I've maintained my resistence training mainly because I'm used to it, my girlfriend digs big blokes, etc.

Basically, I present in photos like a bouncer but, for weight and balance purposes, would this present a problem for potential employers?

I suppose it might if you were flying charters in a 152, but no company I worked for ever allowed consideration of physical size as a factor in the employment process (although a few larger airlines do). Our view was that, if the CAA gave you a medical, and you could physically fit in the aircraft, that was all we cared about.

Having said that our smallest aircraft was a 70-seater, so size and weight were not issues.

I'll bet it's illegal in Australia to discriminate on the basis of size or weight though... :}

It is unless it's integral to the job that you be a certain size or weight.

F/As have a minimum height so they can open the lockers etc, you could probably specify a maximum weight for helicopter pilots because that can impact on the payload, but otherwise you'd want a good reason ready. As you say, if someone has a medical and fits in your aircraft you probably wouldn't want to use the 'you too big' line.

It's nothing to do with HR practices and everything to do with the Australian state and federal anti-discrimination legislation, which is much more restrictive than what you get in Europe, or even the UK. There are also clauses about indirect discrimination, where it wasn't intended but occurred anyway. Virgin got hit with this one by a couple of rejected F/A candidates, where the company was found to have discriminated (on age), but unintentionally.

We received a CV for a 210 bush job, that included (amongst the 10 pages)....Gold medal in barbershop quartet contest :confused:

I guess he could provide the inflight entertainment :}

Geez what happened to Australia, are you lot going soft or something...??? :}

can one of you guys post a format of a cv so we can get an idea... that would be great

My 5 cents worth.......
 

Perhaps employers could be a little more specific when they advertise a position. This would make it easier for potential applicants.

When I see an ad ............"pilot wanted, email xyz@gmail".... it tells me very little about the position, and hence I don't know what to include in my resume and/or covering letter. A few details on type, base and nature of the work would certainly help.

My other pet gripe........."must be rated and current on (insert type)".

Do employers not realise that in insisting on rated and current pilots they are encouraging someone to "do a runner" from the employer that provided that rating? If I was hiring someone I would prefer to

• train them in-house, to ensure standardisation
• hire for attitude, rather than solely on the basis of endorsements

Some good info in this thread. :ok:

archangel7

Here's a format that has got me several jet jobs...

http://www.simavia.co.nz/cve.pdf

Sorry, the PDF turned out a bit crappy... :}

I just got my first job in GA and the manager let me go through all the resumes on file and gave me tips on what they look for in resumes- shouldnt be sharing this info with you since half of u are my competition but since im nice:)

-Avoid gaps in employment history or briefly explain if you have them.
-Stick to only 1-2 pages
-If you look like a geek do not include your photo:8
- Do not include a pre primary style cover page
- Stick to a simple easy to read format
- Tailor your cv to the position your applying for, if its your first job in a small GA company you dont want to come across over qualified.
- My boss like a very brief section about hobbies. apparently he can tell alot about them just by a few of their hobbies ie you play rugby- he knows your not an overweight lazy sloth.
- Dont put in the line "I've already written off a plane so thats unlikely to happen again" That was in a girls resume in her "about me section" amongst her love for cooking cupcakes:ugh:
- I know someone else said dont come in, its probably true for big companies but if its your first GA job and its a small company it might be the go- thats how i got my gig.

Im not an expert but those are the tips i recieved and i hope this might help someone.

Good Attitude amatuer :ugh: Remember, some people do occasiionally jump rungs in the ladder, do you want them pissing on you from above or helping you up? I take it back if you're joking.

I'd really love to know how you could do that in an aviation sense.

So I shouldn't put in that I live next to my computer refreshing D,G &P every few seconds while snorting sherbert and biting my toenails?

What do hobbies have to do with work ethic? What does weight have to do with work ethic? It's my time off and I'll do whatever the f*ck I want to in it.

Besdies if my hobby is playing rugby does that mean I also have a side hobby of public urination, defecation and drunkeness?? I think I can tell a lot about your boss from that comment...

That is pretty funny....mmmmm cupcakes....

Whatever you do, even if it's a meeting your 'mate' has set up for you on a day off, DON'T go in in thongs and a t-shirt. That is how I got my first multi gig. The more qualified "I've got 300 hours on a PA-31" bloke rocks up late with messy hair in pluggers boardies and a printed t-shirt. I was dressed in slacks, shirt and tie, total of 25hrs multi. guess who got the job flying bongos...mmmm bongos....I miss bongos


I agree Chimbu, It would be nice. I sent an enquiry off to an ad like that requesting clarification ie what aircraft types etc. All I got back was "Our client does not wish to divulge that information at this stage, but we welcome further information from you..." Sorry, fail...

Thanks for the posting there remoak, simple and to the point.

j3

If you already have the job how can the others be competition? :rolleyes: You will learn very quickly that this is a very small industry indeed.

Another tip:

A very big NO NO!

NEVER EVER go up to a Chief Pilot at the local Aero Club and ask for a job!

They are there to unwind, not interview pilots! If you are introduced by a mutual aquaintence, fine, have a chat, but don't ask for a job!

Also, I have no problem seeing people who turn up at the door. If I have time I will see them, if not, then they are asked to email me their resume with a note saying they dropped in.

Geez j3pipercub dont shoot the messenger :ouch:

In regards to my earlier comment "You guys are my competition so i shouldnt really being sharing this with you , but since im nice" It was just a light hearted comment not to be taken seriously. Chill people:p

Now answering your question about coming across over qualified- when you have multiple different degrees and pocketed 1000 different accomplishments my boss takes it as an indication they are high achievers with higher expectations and assumes they wont be happy living out bush in a shearers shack in 48 degree heat, flying 172s in a repetitive pattern 6 days a week 7hrs a day and spending the rest of their time washing plane bellies. Just an assumption of his.

In terms of the hobbies and interest section he likes, i was also suprised. But being a small GA company out in the sticks he doesnt want a nerdy guy that sits on the computer all day -hes after strong athletic outdoors types to help out around the place with other labouring jobs. Thus the guy whos interests are say footy and fishing would be preferred over a guy whos interests are i dunno IT or something like that.

Im sure when you get to the bigger city companies and airlines the guy with the degree and whos interest are IT would probably be preferred- so its not doom and gloom if your more on the nerdy side of things:8

Amatuer, I did mention that I took it back if it was a joke and I do. However...

Is that a Commercial Op? And do 172 P-Charts go that high?

Ah I see, he's after a laborer that he wants to pay pilot's wages for. And is this before, after, or during flying 6hrs a day and degreasing the belly? Give it time, wait till the novelty wears off.

Glad you're sure mate, as long as you're sure, then that's all that counts. :ugh: Just got your first job and already an expert, awesome. I am a nerd so I'm glad you think it'll be ok when I get to the bigger city companies...

But when you get to 'bigger city companies' I always thought it would be hours and being a decent human that counted. If it came to IT degrees then I'll fail there too. But that's just from my rather limited experience.

j3

j3...what is your problem???? enjoy picking on the newbies do we?? i take it you're so experienced in aviation that you must have forgotten what its like to be starting out....

If we're talking about getting up noses, this is an attitude that gets up mine (I know it's your bosses' attitude amateur, I'm not having a go at you). On paper I'm overqualified for my position, with post grad tertiary and various exciting achievements :} that aren't needed for my aviation job. However, I like my job and I wouldn't want to work anywhere else. Fortunately in the interview my (current) boss had the courtesy to ask me directly whether I would be afraid to get my hands dirty, and of course I said no.

Just because a person has tertiary qualifications doesn't mean they're an office dwelling tosser, nor does it mean they're puny / incapable of physical work. They may be, of course, but IMHO dismissing them out of hand because of their perceived 'uppitiness' is very unfair and probably means you cut out some good candidates.
Hey, send in a resume. Be aware though that it's one of the few industries where a photo is required with the application:}:E

Surely we must have the weakest unions and unity of any workforce in Australia. Maybe the hospitality guys /gals have a worse one.

QF411,

I don't enjoy picking on the newbies, nor do I think I am experienced. I just find some of the attitudes displayed by some fo the newbies to be irritating and frustrating.

j3

Gee wizz J3 did that pipercub fly up your ass or something? If i have offended you in anyway i do apologise- but im guessing your just naturally a d*ck. And like i said im no expert was just passing on the tips my boss gave me- thought it might be helpful to someone going for a similar type job. As for the 48 degree thing trust me i asked the same thing- Its going to be an interesting summer :\ And yes it is a commercial operation- And yes he does wants labourers but he doesnt pay pilot wages for that -its to earn our keep. And by the way J3 if you read carefully these were purely the attitudes and opinions of the business manager and chief pilot of my company- never did i say i agreed with them.

j3pipercub

Cheers.

One thing though...

It's actually not about work ethic. As with photos, you can tell a lot about a person by how they have fun. So, for example, if someone plays in a band on their days off, you can be fairly sure that they have good hand-eye co-ordination and may well do better in the sim than others. if someone restores classic cars, you can be fairly sure that they have an eye for detail and like to do a job properly. If someone admits to riding an R1 or a Gixxer, you can predict that at some point they may well be away from work for an extended period while they recover from their injuries. Same goes for rugby players.

Of course it's probably illegal to ask someone their hobbies in Australia, so... :ugh:

Damn you did a much better job of trying to explain that than i did :ok:

Amatuer,

You didn't offend me before, but calling me a d*ck did offend me, not that you would care much at this point.

You have your first job, congrats, honestly congrats. The things you will learn about yourself, your limits and the industry will amaze you. Good luck, you will need it.

I was never having a go at you in my first post, I was having a go at your boss, if everything that you put in there were your boss' words. I hate the attitude of your boss, it is so prevalent in the newbie CPL scene that it makes me sick.

I was merely pointing out the myriad of things wrong with this view point, not attacking you personally.

However, I must say that not everything you mention is your boss' opinion. The statement in your second post:

is quite ridiculous considering you have just gotten your first job. Don't go making statements or assumptions where you have no experience. I am also pretty sure this is not your boss' viewpoint.

A word of advice, I would keep the rule breaking to yourself, especially the flying 7 days a week, unless your company has a special dispensation. Already I reckon I could narrow down to a few companies who you work for, just on the info you have provided in your posts. Now if I were a CASA FOI (and yes they do look here, just like they look on youtube occassionally. Don't believe me? Just ask the caravan drivers who were in Maree earlier this year) where do you think I might drop in for an audit if I were passing through. Just be careful and TRUST NO-ONE!!!!!!

remoak,

That of course is true in that respect and context, and I don't have an issue with listing a hobby, but to discriminate against someone because they do or don't play rugby or are carrying extra weight????

Although I am an under-achiever, I think I'm a pretty hard worker when set a task. That being said, I have been put to shame when loading/unloading freight/dirty laundry etc by guys with a much larger BMI than myself. On the flipside, also know some weekend football players who are some of the lazi-est b@stards around when it came to working alongside them.

To factor in people's hobbies, sure. To discriminate, ridiculous.

Might also start using that CV template. Mine is similar, but does need a rework.

j3

Thank you for an actual constructive post j3 :D and yes that last bit was my own assumption but am i too wrong to assume that over two candidates going for an airline position identical hrs both suitable personalities ect that the one who also has a degree in aviation or say business studies would not have an edge over the other?

Agreed. It's just to help build up a picture.

Here's a question I have about job adverts:

- Current MECIR, 2 renewals

Does this mean I can (or need to) fork out the extra money and renew my MECIR 2 extra times in 3 weeks to get by this requirement? Or do I have to wait around 2 years and renew my licence every year?

Main thing is that I have the required flight time, but it is all overseas and I recently just got my Australian ATPL (converted from FAA).

Just curious as to how I should "look good" without my photo. :}

Rhino

Really interesting, and slightly disturbing thread.
My view on a CV is that it is merely a snapshot and thus useful to a very limited degree.
Like Remoak, the majority of my experience has been in Europe where 1 page is the norm..anything else is considered fluff.
Tailwheel, I have a question mate,
How can you be open to litigation if you clearly state at the outset of an interview process/advert etc that your organisation doesnt discriminate on the grounds of age race etc etc.
I'd be interested in anyone with some sort of credibility in this regard to clue me up...simply because you can find discrimination anywhere if you want to find it. i.e. she got the job cos shes a girl, or hes taller than me..so you dont like/employ short people.
Just would like to know how you can be proven to discriminate when you publish a disclaimer..and candidates submit CV's of their own free will?

this is why large companies have standard application forms that are required to be filled out so that everyone being accessed is answering the questions that the company wants to know, ie its harder to pretty things up:ok:

On the topic of Referees.
A referee is there to confirm the decision not make the decision.
Your referees are valuable to you.
Only disclose them at preferred candidate stage.
If your CV stacks up and given it's a small industry a recruiter should be able to work out who you will name as a referee without you actually naming them. e.g. if you worked for xxx air charter, it is likely that mr smith the chief pilot of the time will be a referee.
Referees that are rung up and harrassed frequently by a junior HR person, with nothing better to do, will soon desert you.