Advanced Cockpit Flight Training - Opinions?
 

Hi all,

I'm looking to (re)begin my training at Jandakot and I'm intending to go for a TIF in the near future. I've been with another school prior but I'm really interested in learning in the Super Decathlon at Advanced Cockpit Flight Training (ACFT). Nevertheless I thought I'd ask the PPrune crew if anyone had done their training with ACFT and what they thought about the company? Or even if anyone had heard about them on the grape vine? Like I said I am going to organise a TIF with them soon, I just wanted to see if I could get some "inside info". :cool:

Cheers

What I hear is the CFI just got the boot which is a real shame as he was much respected and liked by his peers.

From all accounts it seems to be the place to go at Jandakot right now. TAC seem to be a shadow of their former self which was a real alternative to RACWA, JFC is always an option although the shedevil will have you rolling your eyes in no time always good for a 210 checkride though. Minovation seems to stay below the radar and churns out a good product and if you can deal with a loudmouth AA is alright to.

Personally I'd throw my money over to minovation for my training and do my tail wheel at acft.

Thanks for the info GG. :ok:

As a side point, which do people consider more beneficial; learning to fly with a tricycle carriage or tailwheel? Or does that come down to personal preference and the students future aspirations? I would think tailwheel would be better as I believe it would give the student a better idea of how planes handle, etc. I realise that most students aspirations lead to tricycle carriage in the commercial world but to me flying tailwheel is taking learning back to the art that flying once was. Or am I just talking old-school romantic gibberish?!? :eek:

Cheers

What exactly does the title "Advanced Cockpit Flight Training" mean. Do their aircraft have advanced cockpits? And what sort of aeroplanes do they fly that have "advanced" cockpits? Perhaps they should rename it Advanced Flight Deck Flight Training, maybe. Bit of a wank?

Why don't you go ask them how many of their graduates fly 'heavy metal'...

In regards to the name they can be called Fluffy Bunny Slippers for all I care. As long as they are good at what they do; teach people to fly. As for job prospects isn't that more up to the student? If you get off your @rse you stand a good chance of a job, if not you disappear. A flying school is a school, not a Centrelink.

To the other valid comments cheers. I've done a TIF with Min before and they are a cool bunch plus I save a fair bit of cash using their Boomerangs or Tomahawks compared to ACFT's Decathlon. I think I'll still do the TIF with ACFT aswell, to be fair and see what it's like.

What rubbish. It doesn't matter where you get your licence, it's what you do to learn your trade after you get it.

I don't know anything about the schools in Jandakot but in my experience the larger schools that claim to be 'Airline training specialists' treat you as just another number. The smaller are ones much more friendly and treat you well.

And yes a tail wheel aircraft will teach how to fly stick and rudder.

Go for the decathlon. RACWA sound like a bunch of tossas, and there are way too many of those in this industry:ok:

The only reason to go to RACWA would be if you want to become an instructor at RACWA, thats about it.

I don't know anyone there that had any experience other than RACWA so unless you fit the club mold it is pointless.

Go somewhere that the instructors have actually had some real world experience and have not heard it on pprune or at the club bar when someone is exaggerating about their war stories 'up north'.

On a lighter note if you are going for a PPL and want a friendly club atmosphere RACWA is pretty hard to beat :)

Yes.....but that's OK.

Has anyone mentioned...."don't pay any money up front"??

Hi Guys
Hopefully I can help shed some light on ACFT. I am a currently an ECU student, ECU has many ties with ACFT so we are often presented with the various sales spiels from ACFT at start of semesters etc.

ACFT are a very new school compared to the rest on the "strip". ACFT started out in 2008 as a branch of their parent company Fighter Combat International (the guys that "attempt" to do mock dog fights in their Nanchangs and charge $535 for the one hour privilege).

I had a look around ACFT at the start of this year. From what I gathered they were not a bad school, the staff were friendly. However they are a very small (new) company with only a small fleet of aircraft. ACFT only have 6 aircraft. ACFT’s PPL syllabus includes 35 hours of briefings, charged at $70 per hour, which would equate to $2450 required in briefing charges alone. A little pricey in my opinion.

ACFT's aircraft look well maintained however I can't see why so many people like the Super Decathlon. There are a lot of complex features that I would imagine would slow down your training, Tail Wheel, CSU, Stick, Insane performance etc. Personally I don't think the Super Decathlon is the best aircraft for Ab-Inito training. The Super Decathlons aren’t fitted with Attitude Indicators so I can't see how they can teach basic IF. The tail wheel will result in extra pre solo circuits to get the hang of the tail wheel landings.

I have done my PPL training with RACWA. There are far too many students at RACWA. However the fleet of 152s are geared up for Ab-Inito training and are simple to get the hang of.
There are 30+ instructors at RACWA so make sure you can be picky about who you want, however, must of the instructors are very young, I would have thought the average age would be about 25.
The administration is one sided, favoring the club. The non "flying" staff are often unhelpful.

RACWA have unfortunately recently implemented a charge for briefings however there are less briefing hours in their PPL syllabus. ACFT have 15 hours of briefings for the Navigation component of the PPL, RACWA have 3. A down side to RACWA is the constantly rising Instructor rates, now at $90 per hour, however the aircraft hire rates are a bit cheaper compared to ACFT. You also have the West Australian Aviation College (WAAC) “children” hanging around the place, go down and take a look around, you will see what I mean.

All training at RACWA is charged by VDO timer, so you start paying as soon as the engine starts. ACFT charge by TACHO on their aircraft, so you are not paying for the taxi time.

None of the flying schools treat you as if you are going to spend $16,000+ on your PPL. Think of the service you would get in other places if you were willing to spend $16,000, unfortunately, in my opinion on Jandakot strip, this not the case. All the flying schools act as if they are doing you a favor by "letting" you go flying.

I would definitely recommend having a trial flight with ACFT, RACWA etc. I had a trial flight with The Aeroplane Company prior to starting my PPL training and decided to stay well clear, it was $170 well spent.

Good luck with all your training, it is great fun. I hope you find the school that is best for you.

Zing

Fair call on most of what you said however looking at things down the road...spending time in a decathalon to learn the correct operations for such systems as CSU's WILL save you a truck load of money in the long run because I reckon a CSU endorsement in a Mooney or 210 will be alot more expensive.

This I think is a bonus for an aspiring jet driver like yourself who will have to complete all of these things anyway......and on the note about no AH, wait to you see what little goodies will be going into that acft.

And no...I dont work there

Pffffff

What rubbish, 30+ hours in a 152 for your GFPT and around that for your PPL in a 172/DA20/Eagle etc will be a fair whack cheaper than a Decathalon thats for sure!

3-5 hours in a M201 for your CSU and retrac and you're on your way. You'd be nuts to pay for this in a 210 unless mums purse was nursing you aloft.

The decathalon is a brilliant machine for a tailwheel as opposed to the Moth/chipmonk/Robin or even TAC's Cap10B (if its even operating yet)

All the operators on the field would give you a start if you do the initial SEFIR with them. I do not know of any Junior 3's that have completed training elsewhere from RACWA and been given a start. Perhaps Grade 1's with significant experience, but not a junior 3.

Why would you need a whole hour of ground briefing before each flight anyway? Isn't that what the textbooks are for?

WAAC contract their full time students into being onsite throughout the day so it tends to give the impression they are just hanging arround

ACFT was going great til the departure of the CFI. Will be interesting to see how it does in the next few months.

RACWA may benefit from the return of BH and TR to get thier IFR school back on track, but at RACWA to get any change you will have to deal with the committee. One of the short falls in my mind of the club is the politics that are being played out . They've spent a lot of time umm'n and arrr'n about their single engine fleet over the years while they've left their twin fleet to really fall over.

If i were to do my training over...RACWA would be great for a PPL, Minovation or ACFT for the CPL

So by the sounds of it Min's seems the place to go. ACFT is on a knife edge with the CFI being replaced and RACWA sounds like a meat factory.

I guess if money's a consideration then the Deke isn't the plane to use. At the time of writing the cost of the Decathlon was $220/hr +GST pus the cost of the instructor at $80/hr + GST. Though I believe you can use their C152 if you prefer(?). On further thought the Decathlon's a tandem seat instead of side by side which doesn't sound like a good thing. Wouldn't you wanna see what the instrctor is doing?
Pretty expensive when you can jump in the Boomerang at Minovation for $213/hr + GST dual. So over 30 hours for the GFPL the difference is a couple of grand. Wich you could probably use to go get you CSU and tailwheel endos and still have some money left over?

Cheers for all the comments so far. I think it's been a constructive thread for guys like me, just starting out. :ok:

Minovation just got another Boomerang due to big demand. Good to see the solid Aussie built machine doing well amongst the imported plastic.

I've heard the Decathlon is a great machine for tailwheel and aerobatics training and ACFT have carved a nice little niche there, but you can't fulfill all of the PPL syllabus in it so you will need to fly other types as well. (Diamond or C172 I think)

As for the Multi/IFR stuff, Trent was building up a good reputation for getting the job done well; but if he's not there any more then I guess they'll need to start the reputation from scratch.

It's always more about the people than the cool company names and flashy advertising.

Why is it that people expect a professional to give ground training for free? Does a lawyer only charge for they time they actually go to court?

God help me....I don't where to start:ugh:Where's Das Uber when I need him!!!

I think he was moreso getting at the fact that those are a pretty ridiculous amount of 'required' ground briefing hours. 27.5 during the GFPT alone? Would you really need (in addition to textbook study) an hour of ground briefing prior to learning how to fly straight and level, or perform a couple of stalls, or before every session of circuits?

...not to mention that a single briefing may be attended by as many students are ready for same, for a minimal increase in the time required to brief. Not a bad hourly rate then, is it? Where do I get some of that action???

Touche my fellow aviators! It is agreed that charging every student the individual briefing rate is a bit crap from the student point of view (I've been there myself). However the flip-side is that if student's don't pay, employers can't pay and if employers pay peanuts then all you get are monkeys!

With respect to charging a pre-flight briefing, it has been my experience (over 1000 hrs of ab-initio instruction) that before each ab-initio flight can commence, an instructor must first:
- find the student,
- give a preflight brief,
- conduct or supervise the sign-out (making student has all required
equipment) and reviewing of MR etc,
- go with the student to supervise a pre-flight inspection (direct or indirect
depending on the student's level of competency)
- get strapped in; and
- get checks done to finally start the engine!

To complete that for every flight takes on average 60 minutes... that is time the employer has to pay the instructor for (or any reasonable employer should be). Why should a student who is utilising the said instructor's time not pay for it?

Another point to note is that NOT ONCE have I heard the question being asked at the airline level as to "which school did you learn to fly at?" Where learning to fly matters is will the training (and your self promotion skills) get you your FIRST job? It is your experience since gaining a that coveted license that matters for every subsequent job.

Tacho time works of engine RPM. The tacho turns over 1 hr when the engine is running at cruise RPM for one hour. If the engine is idling or low power (such as on the ground) the TACHO time turns over slower.

VDO is typically based on clock time when the engine is running - run off oil pressure as the switching mechanism or something along those lines.

I am sure a LAME can give us a better idea of exactly how it works, but thats the basics of it as I understand it.

VDO or Hobbs is a clock that runs on a meter usually activated by oil pressure but sometimes by master switch. This is the time that you log and that the instructor gets paid for if casual.

Normally you get around 110 VDO or "revenue" hours to 100 tacho hours and costings will be done on this basis. So, if you get it on tacho not only will you log less but you will pay 10% more.

So CASA's ruling is "when the aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking-off until the moment at which it comes to rest after landing". Am I right in saying that means when the plane starts moving from where it was parked to the runway, including taxi/waiting time, flying, landing and taxiing back to the parking area?
If that's the case wouldn't VDO be better as you accumulate all that time waiting around to take-off anyway?

Or in the charter world you log wheels off wheels on times on your flight plan and add 0.1 for VFR or 0.3 for IFR per landing.

So does that mean if you learn with a company that charges by Tacho you will still acrrue hours by the VDO?

Assuming they have a VDO, yes.

Charging time and logbook time can be different.

Thanks for all the input guys. I've gone and booked myself a TIF with ACFT this weekend so we'll see how it goes. I'm still not sure if I want to go with them for the GFPL as the price difference of the Deke compared to the Boomerang at Minovation is a fair bit but I'd still like to see what they offer for that money. But I'm thinking the price is roughly the same if you also get the tailwheel and CSU endos to boot.
I'm also unsure of training in a plane with the seating arranged front and back instead of side by side. I think I'd rather be able to see what the instructor is doing so I can get a better idea of what I'm supposed to be doing.

:ok:

Doesn't mean a thing. Like looking over a gleaming second hand car with the speedo wound back. Check their maintenance releases. Are they squeaky clean with no defects reported? Immedately be on your guard. No defects noted may mean there are none and it's the perfect aeroplane - or there are defects but not recorded because it costs money to fix and it's best not to advertise the fact to CASA.

What is the rationale for the difference between IFR and VFR. Is that in the Regs somewhere. Seems just another way of grabbing money from the customer.

Obviously you have never left the flying school!

The customer only ever pays the wheels off wheels on times or the Airswitch if fitted. You add the 0.1 & 0.3 per landing to the Airswitch/WO WO to get your pilot logbook times. Or you can record the off chocks on chocks which worse out a little more for your logbook.

Difference for VFR & IFR is IFR requires more stringent instrument checking and more radio work. The 0.1 & 0.3 cover the initial taxi and the landing taxi.

No it doesn't mean that. However a VDO will tick over 0.1hr every 6 mins all the time the engine is running. The Tacho on the other hand, when idling and warming the engine, may take 10mins to tick over 0.1hr. At cruise power it should take 6mins to tick over 0.1hr. At full power it might take 5mins to tick over 0.1hrs. I plucked the figures out of the air (minutes wise) but hopefully you get the idea.

That is my understanding of it. You only use full power at takeoff and when climbing in most lighties.

Highly recommend ACFT
 

As a regular student at ACFT I can highly recommend them as a flight training school. I have been flying there since February this year and have been very impressed with their high level of professionalism, teaching methods, aircraft maintenance and tidiness, instructor experience and customer service. They treat you like a person and not just a number.

I initially completed currency, tail wheel and CSU endorsements in their 2 Super Decathlons which are a pleasure to fly and lots of fun. I'm now flying a C172 to complete my PPL.

Go there and visit them and have a chat with the instuctors and check out the planes.

www.acft.com.au

:ok:

They add 0.2 to all tacho time logs on the Decathlons at ACFT. The clock hardly ticks over at all at 1000rpm, so by the time you've warmed up, pre-flighted and lined up, you're lucky to have added 0.1.

From personal experience, you will take longer to learn to fly a tail-dragger as an abo-initio pilot and you will not be able to complete your GFPT or Navs (PPL) in ACFT's Decathlons as they have no Attitude Indicator. Personally, you would be better off learning to fly a Cessna/Piper and leave the Decathlon for your tail-dragger/CSU endorsement and/or EMT/aero ratings - that's what they're designed for. The longer it takes for you to learn to fly, the more money will spend. Soon you will discover you have all these hours on a Decathlon but won't be able to use the same aircraft to get your GFPT or PPL and will have to learn to fly something else anyway.

It's a great plane to fly, but it's not the best beginner's aircraft.

Method of charge for the Decathlons at ACFT
 

The method of charge for the Decathlons at ACFT is based on Tacho time. Therefore at the end of your flight if the Tacho time is say 0.8 hours then you pay for 0.8 hours of aircraft hire but you log 1.0 hours (add 0.2 hours) in your flight log book. The additional 0.2 hours that you add to your log book time is to cover average taxiing/waiting time etc when you are still in command of the aircraft so you are still entitled to log the time. So you are getting more log book time than you are actually paying for!

If you would like any further explanation give the guys at ACFT a call on (08) 9417 1927 or visit them and they will be only too happy to explain it to you.

:ok:

Briefing times? You mean the quick explanation just prior to the flight lesson? I'm used to home study and then when fly day comes have a short briefing with the instructor about the days lesson and off we go! :}

Let's hope tomorrow clears up!!

What utter bloody rubbish. Man, that takes the cake and is so typical of the GA flying training industry. Of course I presume that someone has done measured taxi trials with a stop watch to see how long it takes a pilot to scan his flight instruments while taxiing (three seconds maybe?)

Instrument checks, more engines to run up, more navaids to TIT, Getting a word into centre when its busy (or HF which can be a pain)

As yes a thorough instrument scan takes longer than 3 seconds.

Back to your 152 fella, you might make it in 3 seconds there :D