Merged: Pel Air vs RFDS for the Air Ambulance contract in Australia
 

I have heard Pelair have undercut RFDS for the QLD section contract, although have not heard any official words about it so I thought I would come straight to the place of all wisdom in things aviation. PPRUNE

Can anyone tell me is there any truth to it?

Sorry, you've lost me. What contract? The crewing, the aircraft? You ex-pel air or current?

j3

It is very difficult for a company to undercut a "not for profit" or subsidised organisation that can quote low and make up the shortfall by asking for donations from the public.
It's not really a level playing field and is a clever means of getting cheap airmedical services for the government by getting Mr general public to subsidise it with donations.

If this is true, Pel Air wont survive. RFDS supply a critical service to all of Australia, and do it with flying colours. Other operators are moving in to the air ambulance business, but you will find they are not there to compete with the RFDS. The likes of Pel Air, Careflight QLD, and now even CQ Rescue in Mackay will support RFDS and hopefully not take its work away.:ok:

Bushy, while I generally agree with your 'not for profit organisations should not have AOC's' mantra, I think it is important to remember that not one cent of donations from the general public goes to running 'Government Contracts'!

In fact quite the reverse, profits from any contracts the RFDS have, go to providing funds for their more 'traditional' rural services. Of course there are tax benefits to being a 'not for profit' organisation which may help reduce their overheads, however the RFDS are currently paying their pilots considerably more than any of their GA competitors!

Personally I don't see too many other GA companies with the facilities, or resources able to cover the State of Queensland, Pelair included!

"Not for profit", doesn't actually mean that they don't, or can't, make a profit. and true, they RFDS do pay more than their GA counterparts, and spend more on training, and uniforms etc.

IF the RFDS had to compete against GA companies run by "for profit" accountants, and using the cost factor they now have.... they wouldn't survive a month...!!!!!!!!!! they are a beauracracy hiding behind a legend. HOWEVER, they do do sterling work, and have my respect. I wish that I had been able to have a stint with them.

You will find that Careflight QLD(RACQ) and Careflight NSW(NRMA) are two very separate companies that happen to have the same name.
CF NSW utilise Pel Air for jet coverage while CF QLD have there own jets and crew.
The companies looked at coming together many many years ago, thus the same name, but with different board members and business models, they went there own ways.

Sounds just like the RFDS!;)

A "not for profit" entity is required to operate “profitably” in order to preserve it's solvency, in the same manner a commercial “for profit” entity generates profits.

A "not for profit" entity generates financial surpluses, whereas a “for profit” entity generates profits.

The difference is that a "not for profit" entity is not permitted to distribute it's surpluses to Members by way of dividends or other benefits, but must re-invest it's surpluses in the services it provides. A “not for profit” entity is not subject to company profits tax but is generally subject to all other taxes and duties, including GST, payroll tax etc. Certain ATO approved charities, generally in health or religious services, operating as "not for profit" entities (but not all) may enjoy FBT benefits which are generally passed to staff by way of a higher PAYG tax threshold.

Both “not for profit” and “for profit” entities generally managed their operations on similar business principals.

RFDS QLD section do a lot of clinical work particularly in the Cape region.
They use operators outside the RFDS frame work ie contactors. GAM and Hinterland etc. They all have to pass quite strict RFDS audits.
The QLD goverment through Queensland health pay for this. it is a community service, provded for the communities.
Perhaps Pel Air have won this work????

Was chatting with an ex-Pelair driver the other day who told me PelAir have tendered for the NSW Air Ambulance contract against the RFDS, using B350s.

"Interesting". :eek:

What happened to the RFDS WA aka Maroomba jet operation that was on the drawing board? Does this service replace that option?

Did not want to start the same old 'profit, not for profit, non profit' debate. Although I do agree with most of what has been said here I was just wondering if Pel Air had actually won the contract, given that no one has any facts about it I guess it just has not happened.

Now Back to the OFF TOPIC THREAD. :}

Like I said I agree with what has been said so far but there is the example of Pearl (I will just duck and take cover now) but they won the contract for the Top End even though they were competing with RFDS, so I think that makes it possible elsewhere. Do not take it as gospel, but now that contract is up again, I believe Pearl, Pel Air and others are competing for the contract against the RFDS.

It takes time and money to put together a bid for a contract and no business would be investing both if they didn't think there was a dollar to be made.

Speaking of profit, I am going to run a book on who gets the the top end contract. ANY TAKERS $$$$$$$
ANYONE WANT TO SET THE ODDS?????????

DD:E

The tender that went out in QLD was for 2000 extra hours on top of what is already distributed between RFDS, Careflight etc by QLD Health.

To date the tender has not been awarded to anyone (that I'm aware of) but there were quite strict conditions placed on aircraft type, loading capabilities and crew experience in aeromedical operation.

RFDS was only one of the companies that tendered for the extra hours and there is certainly no guanrantee they will get it, but 81 years of aeromedical infrasrtucture and experience in QLD, more than 15 aircraft, 50 pilots and 7 fixed bases throughout the state doesnt fall over overnight because of an extra 2000 hrs on top of the 20 odd thousand hours a year they already do.

Does the NSW government still own the B200's, or they owned by the contractor?

RFDS: Victorian Air Ambulance Contract
 

Now here is a shocker!:eek:

As of July 1st 2011 Pelair will be the new guys on the job.

Not good for all the RFDS folk. :uhoh:

One wonders how a really 1st class professional "not for profit" outfit can be undercut by a commercial group with way less experience and equipment for the job.

Any of you folk who know the ropes care to comment?

J:sad:

I was told by an ex-Pelair bloke that they were tendering for the NSW contract too.

I imagine the Pel Air Metro drivers made redundant were on much less money than the RFDS drivers - Rex management know how to screw 'em down :suspect:

I am sure the Vic government know what they're doing - no, I can't see any issue with replacing very experienced specialised pilots with guys with much less experience. No issue there at all. :ugh:

Sooooo, this then leads the question...who actualy owns the facility at EN? and, Who owns the aircraft?

Changing of the guard hey, I guess it was only a matter of time it is a contract after all. Dissapointing for the rfds pilots with the conditions they have built up over time, this is how they get erroded all legal like!

In any case there is two years left and the pressure will be on the next operator to get their act together in time to start. Look forward to seeing who gets SY now, it should be announced very soon I think.

I would say there would be a clause dictating the minimum experience levels for the pilots to fly the line, hopefully everyone who wishes to keep their job does so.

Unfortunately there is no column in a Ledger for 'Experience':mad::ugh:

Sounds ike a CHARLIE FOXTROT in the making to me.....will someone remember in about 3 years to bring this thread and this post to the surface............I may be wrong, but I think it will be a case of ........:ugh:

Isn't the trend in the USA for regular crashes of EMT aircraft?

Reduction in the experience base must be world's best practice then... :uhoh:

Okay I knew this would come out sooner or latter.

I'll add a bit here seeing as I am directly effected:{

Yes it's true the RFDS has been unsuccessful in the next contract in Melb.
Sydney unknown as yet but doesn't look good.

We have a great team down here, top management with the best C&T guys you will get in the business, pilots who can do the job with their eyes closed all well above the mins many in the 5000-10000 hr bracket. Engineers who are worth their weight in gold. The admin staff who really run the place we just do as we are told are terrific people:-)
The fact is that it's a Govt commercial contract & when Govts are involved anything is possible, anyone recall the Amann Aviation fiasco many years ago?
Pelair/Rex obviously have a lot of clout & I wish them well because it's not an easy contract to stay on top of. Anyone can fly a KingAir they are idiot proof that's not the issue it means making several quick decisions on the run under some very adverse conditions that counts, pilots need to be extraordinary at times, will be interesting to see if Pelair use this contract and others (if they win others) as a proving/training ground so to speak for their up & coming 'gringos'! Just an opinon that's all.

I have my doubts as to whether the currect drivers will take on the new employers if they do indeed get offered jobs as there is certaintly almost no chance of us getting our current hard fought T&C's, this will be the deciding factor for us older pilots, early retirment looks good:-)

So I hope that puts to rest some that might be thinking otherwise here. It's been a great ride for allmof us & there is still some fun times & great mateship to be had before we go under but all good things come to an end. The only saving grace might be the fact that 2 years in aviation ('till the end of the current contract) is a very long time, anything could happen & probably will.
ANSETT who? I always thought they where as safe as eggs, most did, but now?..............I rest my case!

cheers


Wmk2

and there is some level of experience money can't buy.............


Courtesy of Jamair vission inc:ok:

Sad day for the RFDS guys and girls at YMEN.

Brave move for the Victorian Government and in particular the Health Minister. With the RFDS being in the aeromedical business since 1928 and owning a large fleet of B200's, you thought they would have put in a very competive tender and had the expertise as well.

Hope its not another Amman Aviation in the making!

Little birdie told me that Pelair are planning to operate B350's on the Victorian and NSW contracts.

GAM will also feel the pinch as they do some of RFDS maintenance in YMEN.

That is probably half the reason why they are losing the contract. The trick is to be cheap, not expensive.

Will there be PC-12s?

FGD135
Unfortunately you are absolutely correct although it just means the same amount of jobs except the pilots now have to live on the breadline. My guess for aircraft is B200's or 350's.

Edit
Wally Mk2
You know, two years is a long time in aviation these days, you never can tell. Another pilot shortage?, a wages breakout?. REX/Pelair is an industry savvy ORG, there is just no way this could be used as a training ground, if anything they would need to use REX mainline as the training ground and I think they know that.

Jaba, where they flares, small lights, or reflectors? Hard to tell from the vid.

rmcdonal

how would you know......and what differece does it make!






Flares I think.

Yup...... them was flares......... and car headlights at the end of the strip.

Yr right guys (FGD) they are going to do it cheaper, no doubt about it. It simply cost the RFDS X amount of bucks to run the contract & they would have been too dear at the end of the day to match the winners. For our price you get quality, less doesn't always mean better:-(

You have a fairly level playing field when it comes to purchasing & the running costs regardless of airframes. The fuel will always be the same allowed for in anyones tender BUT the thing that can be kept cheap & controllable (at a human cost) is the people who work there, they are the ones you can screw down & make it work for peanuts (well try to anyway), the rest isn't negotiable. Remember this is a Govt contract with penalties attached for non conforming performances. It won't be a walk in the park for Pelair but I still wish their employees all the best when they do take over, afterall it's the guys on the ground (so 2 speak) that will make it work not the Mr 'El-cheapo' in SQ!.

"SN" It's only my opinion that the contract could be a training ground for their other operations. Very difference beast SP ops againts 2 crew RPT Ops mostly done during normal working hrs. The few guys that came to us from RPT 2 crew found it very hard at first to adjust, the other way round would be far easier.Top guys now though.

"OS" a tear ot two will flow the day we park them for the last time, we have had ( & still are) some great treatment from you guys, keep it up Med 1 works everytime even 1POB:} (kidding)

"FGD" contract only allows for twins, that's the once saving grace that kept most of us there, the safety side of things. An option is for B350's but that brings a whole set of new problems for the current based ops requirements, we shall see.

Wmk2

When are the other Divisions due for renewal. I'm sure Pel will be looking for these aswell. Had no idea of them of them getting Vic/Tas though.

Wally, as another controller who deals with you guys every day I thoroughly agree with OS. We bugger you around when you aren't MED1 so we're square! :}

A Rolls-Royce service comes with a commensurate price tag I guess. Pelair has some very big shoes to fill.

Wonder what the Pel-Air T&Cs for aeromed ops will be? - Pay for endorsement + a bond and I reakon all casuals hourly rate! Imagine the money that will save - paying those aeromed guys for that 'standby' time costs a fortune !

Very sad - where will cost cutting end in aviation ?

The RFDS team at EN, were the best bunch I have ever worked with!
Sorry to hear that my friends are being displaced and Air Ambulance Victoria are loosing such a great team. I hope that all who fly with the ambulance Victoria may never know the difference.

Lester; maybe the RFDS were overpriced, who knows...but you have to wonder about the state of play in general when ambulance services are ?? Or is it just me?

If 350's are being used, wouldn't it stand to reason that there will be quite a few strips now that will be inaccessible to them, due to being too short for a Balanced Field Length etc?

j3

I sure hope they won't be planting REX cadets in the RHS.

For that sort of op you would want two guys who know what they are doing.

RFDS relies heavily on donations for the aquisition of new aircraft.

The people of the bush (and the city)are aware of this and have got behind the RFDS since its inception. The RFDS has, over a long time, earnt the respect of these people - many of whom have seen loved ones helped if not saved. People who sleep well at night knowing that the "mantle of safety" is there if needed.

I doubt the same level of respect and support will be shown to a newcommer.

They are some big boots to fill.

Good luck!

j3pipercub
The short answer is no. The 350 may may operate into any strip so long as it has been surveyed and the aircraft is at a weight that can comply with the balanced field requirements. Most strips in VIC have been surveyed by the RFDS over the years and i'm sure Pelair will do the same if indeed they are to operate the 350.

Illusion
Your name says it all!