IMO they do. Until you are in the Circling Area or are on final at 5nm/7nm on the VASI/10nm Gp+LLZ, then IMO you are on an instrument approach ie DGA and you have to do the approach properly. Barrelling around the 4nm arc at night using the DGA steps to get onto left base is not on.

I am not going to pull out my DGA chart just to save the ATC a few words. He can clear me down to the MVA, then a VA, thank you. Besides, some places don't have DGAs, and when they did in the old days, the DGA steps were 3nm closer than the CTA steps, so were no good for SI Apps anyway.

A dead horse is being flogged here. The new rules are quite simple and very pilot-friendly: descend as the nice ATC clears you until you look out the window, without worrying about terrain, hop into the circling area or onto the VASI/GP and land. TFE. Pilots doing DGAs into Primary Controlled airports are an anachronism of the past.

Never once mentioned a 4nm arc. Mentioned the circling area about 3 times.

Have a nice flight :ok:

I never said you did. I was merely using that as an example of manoeuvring inside the 5nm FAF on a DGA, outside the Circling Area.

I always do. Dunno about my FOs, though! :E

Thanks, sums it up nicely, I'm happy to leave it at that. I got into this topic as in-depth as I did as I'm still on the front end of the experience curve as an IFR pilot, and this type of discussion is good if it doesn't get too ridiculous.

Had the final chat today with the gentleman of Brisbane. He had been discussing this issue with others in CASA/ASA.

He reported that although there had been no intention to change how night visual approaches were to be conducted, there had been, via the phraseology change, an attempt to clarify the requirements re descent below the last assigned level.

He ended by saying that that amendment would be reviewed, with a likely amendment to AIP in the next cycle.

Vis App
 

I'm just going to kick this off again slightly if I may, it's not in line with the discussion that took place but is still in regards to a VA.

I went in and out of Cairns for a while last year and found myself in the same position a couple of times on a Visual Appch to runway 15. This is only in regards to a day vis app, with a track coming in from the north-west (LHR direction).

On clear blue skies I'd call visual with approach and would then be cleared down to 3000 visual whilst following radar vectors heading south down the coastline. I would usually be cleared visual approach when around 15 miles out. The only problem is that a visual approach was impossible by this stage as at my altitude I couldn't maintain tracking requirements or I'd become part of the landscape as the direct track from where I was to the aid crosses (below) a ridge about 10 miles out.

On every occasion, I'd have to request tracking left (east) direct to 5nm final which would allow me to track further out over sea, to clear the terrain to get in that way. Each time, I'd get the 3000 visual clearance, and then the visual appch. Remaining at 5000 for instance would be impractical as manoevring and descent would be excessive after passing the ridge in the aircraft I was in.

Given the same conditions, is this the best way to approach this?


Cheers, S&T

This discussion has been very useful in helping me make sense of the instruction into LT the other night when at 14 miles we were at the MSA and told to make a visual approach without any reference to "when inside the circling area" or even "make DME arrival". We were expecting to be given some instruction to join the final leg of the VOR approach. When I rang the controller to clarify what he was expecting he basically indicated that whatever I wanted to do was acceptable to him! Our solution was to manouvre within the MSA sector that allowed us to descend on the VOR approach. Next time I will just request the Morris intercept but I stupidly thought that there was a reason we weren't offered it in the first place. :ugh:

socks and thongs,

We're more than happy for you to request left of track - lot's of pilots do, not only because of the descent profile re terrain but also to avoid turbulence. Common request is via Double Island.

Thanks for confirming that topdrop. I just thought I may have been missing something re the vis app clearance but it seems it's simply a bit of an anomaly of getting into CS under those specific conditions.

Thanks again.