Casa Drug screening
 

Hi all. I would like to know if anyone out there has had their medical/job affected by CASA implementation of their DAMP?

I'd have thought it's a bit too early to tell. As I understand it, the legislation passed into Australian law about Sept 2008 and the regulator allowed a 6 month grace period for Industry to come to terms with it, and provide the necessary training. Actual testing should have commenced in the last week.

One thing's for sure, CASA staff won't be affected, they're exempt.:hmm:

Not if they are airside !

If CASA employees took drugs and drank alcohol we may just see them do things in orderly and timely manner.
They certainly need something to kick start'em :confused:

Start Date March 23rd 2009
 

Guy's,

The start date for the DAMP was March 23rd. That was the date that all industry participants had to have a DAMP programme in place. It would be highly unlikely that anyone has been pinged to date. One would hope not anyway!!!!

Groggy

I'd like someone to post here when they first see testers turn up at an airport.

They have their own internal policies for this just as in any workplace.

Think of them as the Police, Police don't get breathtested like a civillian whilst they are at work, same for these guys, but of course if they are suspected of activity thent they will be.

Of course if they were flying as part of their job they would be under scrutiny like any other pilot, but think about it, if you were a cop and you were on a random breath testing station and another cop drove by in a marked cal, would you pull him up and test him? I don't think so.

I can imagine their random testing will be blatantly obvious at the airfiled on the day, they may as well put a sign out the front like when they are ramp-checking.

Oh yes they do and drug tested as well. At least around here anyway.

Regards,
BH.

I should have emphasised the word "random" with regard to Police breath testing.

Bring it on
 

The only people who should be concerned about the introduction of these random tests are the ones who know they should be concerned!:=

It really isn't that hard to be off the piss in time to be safe and legal for work. If something stronger/more illicit is your poison then expect a trip up **** creek with a turd for a paddle. Who gives a rats arse if people who get caught and lose their licence or whatever. The industry will be better off without them.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

VH-XXX

From a mate in the force it is random and done at the work place.

Regards,
BH.

You may know that there is quite an outbreak of whooping cough doing the rounds at the moment. For those of you who are parents of babies under 6 months and you are exposed to someone with Whooping Cough, it is the best medical advice to start a prophylactic course of antibiotics to ensure that you don't get it and thus pass it on to your bub.

It's a run of the mill antibiotic, with no restriction on your ability to fly. However, it will cause a positive test for Cocaine.

If you get caught anywhere in a random CASA test, you will be stood down immediately until it can be clarified - a process of a couple of days at best.

It matters not that you told your DAMP representative that you were taking the anti-biotic.

Do you go to work?

Discuss.

CS, there are quite a few other drugs in small amounts that are used quite legally and are tested for. As you said, "Do you go to work?" Quite! I can see this potentially getting a bit ugly.

You beat me to it CS...

Four-balls, your thoughts are all well and good in a perfect world, however that's not where I live and work!

CS, my answer to your hypothetical is: "why would I go to work and risk being stood down WITHOUT PAY, when I can go sick, stay home, and get paid? That's not to mention the stigma that would certainly stem from a positive result".

You have identified one good example of the flaws in this arrangement - there are many others I'm sure.

I'm not suggesting that NOTHING should be done, or that substance abusers should be allowed to populate the industry, but I simply do not think that any of this really has merit. I have never been convinced by any of the wishy-washy reasoning put forward for it all in the first place, and naturally the cost is borne by the industry.

Now that it is in, I am looking forward to see exactly how many potential menaces to the travelling public are filtered from the workplace by this random testing.

I also look forward to the "8 hour" rule being removed - I can have a beer (maybe two!) at lunch (say, 13:00), have a snooze, and sign on at 18:00 with a zero BAC and in breach of NOTHING.

I can have some wine after dinner in the evening, say three glasses, all done by 23:30, hit the hay and report for duty at 06:00 - again, zero BAC and in breach of NOTHING (except the reg that says "thou shalt not have a life!" - what number is that one again?!)

CASA you can't have your cake and eat it too (but no doubt you will try) :yuk:

What do you guys think?

CR.

P.S. Yeah, I love a drink, but not where it gives me any BAC whilst at work!!

Thanks CASA for my crappy desk calendar
 

got a nice drugs & alcohol calendar from CASA in the mail today.
It contains the same "your limit" rule on it as i've seen on posters around the airport.

The big noted catch phrase being

"The limit for you is less than 0.02"

right.... ok....

read further on the big posters or your new flash desk calendar....

"The permitted level for alcohol is a concentration less than 0.02 grams of alcohol in 210 litres of breathe (0.02% BAC). The permitted level is equivalent to 0.00% alcohol as it will measure sufficient levels to detect consumption"

eh? does this make sense to anyone else?

So if the permitted level is actually 0.00% to ensure you are legal and dont get busted for consumption within 8 hours before you start flying, why does CASA think its a good idea to plaster huge lettering "The limit for you is less than 0.02" on its posters and marketing material :confused:

If you are trying to explain a simple rule for BAC, why would you use the wording "is less than" ? To me, this gives an initial misconception (and i'm sure people who dont read the fine print) that apparently its ok to be up to the "limit" of 0.02.

If you need to prove you are 0.00% BAC, why bother mentioning 0.02% at all??

Four Balls
 

I'm with you, our DAMP program is in use and being used as we speak. The printed matter (policy) is in print and on the main counter fo all to see and read.
I'm told there IS a DAMP person assigned to YSBK and he is there all the time. He will be visiting "all" places on Bankstown Airport.
BRING IT ON.
Kickatinalong.:D:D:D
There is nothing worse than a reformed drunk.

Anyone else notice that March does not exist on one side of the calendar that CASA sent out with the Drug notice.

CASR's explained?
 

Looking at one of the recent Misc. Instruments that just came out in regards to the upcoming barrage of alcohol and drug testing about to take place, I was wondering if someone with a solid understanding of the CASR's in relation to this new area could explin that...

For example I was to be tested at YMMB, it would be by an independent provider (only with an affiliation to CASA), and this person would have to be a Doctor or Nurse - practicing specifically in the area of fluid collection and storage. Does this mean that delegated collectors -people without formal medical qualifications - will be in remote areas?

Who is going to pay for this service, now that CASA has its balls firmly positioned into the mentality of "user pay". I seriously think that spending 10 minutes with a qualified Doctor or Nurse is insane. I understand the want and need to be as professional as possible, but why not just allow all "capable people" to do the tests?

I do not propose creating another breed of "super humans" like what has been done with the outsorcing of many airport security firms. But why is there going to be so much more cost associated when there are mechanisms set up for autonomy and clarity within the (CASA) organisation already?

SIGH....

Stupid hand out to say the least, again it is user pays... thank you for a crappy product which I will never use and that has a month missing! Maybe next time I should look into the NPRM papers in a bit more detail... :hmm:

If you are not subscribed and are needing to get more confused about the issue please read on at... http://casa.gov.au/rules/miscinst/2009/CASAEX27.pdf

"Rather then the calendar, I think some education is needed. We have to do annual briefs (15-45 mins), its a pain, but you do walk away with a better understanding."

Exactly my thinking too. What use is a PR exercise of a shoddy peice of un-informative paper where the situation becomes more and more clouded. The common sence rule should apply, and to anyone who "tries to poke holes in the rules" I am sure they will.

I just think that there should be a zero tolerance attitude to flying and drugs, as I was always taught, you were never to commence duty or flying "if under the influence of a drug that may impair judgement/thinking". Aviation in my eyes is not part of drug taking culture, and excluding some rouge elements of the industry, never had the capacity to harbour it. The catalyst for this PR spin was a set of unfortunate events of pilots that "may" have been under the influence of drugs in the previous 2 days or more.

I honestly think you are an idiot to risk your licence with alcohol let alone drugs. If more emphasis had been put into curbing the culture of these rouge elements and proactive thought processes rather than reactionary "look at me I am doing something, and now have given everyone a piece of plastic, therefore they will not do drugs" stunt, then maybe I would not be so picky as to thier ruling.

You are quite right in saying that this process is not aviation specific, and I think it is a good implementation, but fear they reasons for which it was implemented and how the"authorities" have gone about it is a sorry reflection on lack of industry input.

I think it would be lovely to believe that this was the end we are going to hear about it all, but I see in two years time a lobbist from ASL pushing the government to make it compulsry for every new SPL applicant to sit a Drug Multi Choice Exam, with a 80% pass rate and nominal user pay (rape) recouperation. :yuk:

I see that once again the “if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear” brigade are out and singing their song with all the self righteous pomposity that they can muster.

I for one cannot see the sense in this entire issue. Has there been some massive increase to accidents and/or incidents that are attributable to impairment by drugs and alcohol? If there has been then I would very much like to see the statistics that this so-called ‘safety’ program was based on.

It is an empire building exercise started by the holier than thou that will cost the industry millions annually and provide little or no benefit to the fare paying public, who are the prime responsibility of the CASA.

It will result in prosecutions for minor infractions and humiliation for those who test positive for drugs at “ramp check” types of swabbing but then show acceptable levels of prescription or over the counter medications. It will result in more sick days due to some of the above mentioned instances and breed ill feeling and a sense of injustice, and why, so that a new entire section of the CASA can be formed and grown AT YOUR EXPENSE.

We need this like a hole in the head. It will be another tedious, time consuming expensive and totally pointless exercise that consumes effort and time in an industry already doing its best with limited resources. If they wanted to include a breath test along with a ramp check I can see some sense in it, but this is bullsh!t and you guys are taking it right up the clacker on the basis that it proves that you are one of those who would never be so naughty as to have a few beers with the boys.

Show me the real cold hard FACTS that this entire snow job is based on and I might be convinced, but I am sick of being told to bend over and grab you ankles because this is good for us all, just like regional airport security this is a make work exercise based on motherhood statements and little else.

I dread to think of what those useless oxygen bandits will think up nest in order to ‘protect’ us all, but rest assured, there WILL be something else in 12 to 18 months and I hope that next time some one stands up against it, or most of an AOC or COA holders money will be running more and more safety and security programs, for our own good, of course.

WOW , big rant for a Wednesday morning.

HD

Is Casa on drugs?
 

Did anyone get the calender thingy? not only is March missing. (maybe it doesn't exsist for Casa) but I recieved two envelopes on the same day:\

I haven't read it through yet, it's filed next to the desk :} any other items reflecting the possibility of our regulator on the funny stuff?:p

Is CASA trying to dumb down the industry by restricting alcohol consumption?

Cliff's Buffalo Theory

This is credited to an episode of Cheers in which Cliff explains to Norm the 'Buffalo Theory':
"Well you see, Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as fast as
the slowest buffalo and when the herd is hunted, it is the slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the weakest members. In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the slowest brain cells. Now, as we know, excessive drinking of alcohol kills brain cells. But naturally, it attacks the slowest and weakest brain cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient machine. And that, Norm, is why you always feel smarter after a few beers."


I know some Ag (and Airline) pilots who have operated on this principle for years, and come to think of it more than a few Military pilots, though they have been getting tamer and tamer of recent years. This may well be due to a cultural shift due to behavior modification by education, rather than the baseball bat that CASA is taking to the system.

Sauce for the Goose is sauce for the Gander, every CASA employee in ANY office (or dungeon) in their ivory towers should be eligible for routine and random D&A testing because the ALL work in safety related jobs by virtue of their employer being the safety regulator, if not , sack em and test all those that are left, their jobs must all be safety related.[

HD

Just noticed in the junk mail from casa on drug testing that aviation security (including screening) are also subject to the same rules. I would appreciate it very much if casa would drug test a few of these goons.

In a former life as a Mill Relining company pilot, we were subjected to the same drug and alcohol testing as the workers. (The pilots were expected to assist the reline team on site at the mine plant.)

On the trip out to the minesite the pilots were strategically placed towards the rear of the troopy, next to the back door, so they would be selected by the security staff at the gate for the drug screening.

Eventually, after consistant negative results, some of the security staff caught on and poked their heads in a little further and said , "OK, you with the dreadlocks up the front there, come with me!" :ooh:

.

Towering Q
 

I get your message.......
I am off to get a haircut tomorrow ;) :E

Couldn't agree more with this point kingRB. I think the big posters being put up everywhere are completely misleading. The posters, at a glace - which is all 90% of people will give them - lead one to believe that a quick pot of beer before a flight is ok if it doesn't put you above 0.02. A quicker glance actually omits the words "less than", as they're in small font compared to the other jumbo letters.

I don't know why they're tiptoeing around with mountains of tiny details - people understand a big fat ZERO TOLERANCE message/poster - why all the fluff?

These points are of course discounting the fact that if you don't know you shouldn't be flying with a positive BAC, then you shouldn't be flying at all.

Oh and yes, I can confirm 101% that police get quite frequently randomly tested - urine-sampled far more frequently than breath-tested, but both occur. You can generally expect to be hit around twice a year.

Now let's get a couple of things straight. I hold a class 1 medical. I do not drink alcohol at all. Listerine can put me over! How is that a fair process given that CASA will launch into a medical clearance requirement to prove you're not an alcoholic?!?

Lets look at another thing, I have at times back problems which do not affect my ability to fly. My DAME is certain of that. I am prescribed Voltaren to help with the pain when required. I have no idea what is in that, but am I going to be without work for a week because CASA will assume I'm a druggo for utilising a prescription drug?

This is such a poorly thought out and implemented scheme that I'm amazed it has gained this much traction and was actually approved. Who are these idiotic paper pushers? I'm trying to plan a meeting with my local member with regard CASA and this useless paperwork is part of it, as well as the stupid wrong plastic calendar tent thing. You want a fight CASA? You're going to get it from the whole industry.

Have a look at the list of over-the-counter medications that will give a positive test for codeine and tell me if you will simply call in sick if you wake up with a mild sore throat or risk taking a couple of "Chemist's Own" Cold Flu tablets.

Hey guys,

Just a side subject, did anyone have a look at their nifty lil calender they sent in the mail in regards to this?

Did anyone see March missing in 2010? I have heard of a leap second, or a leap year, not too sure about a leap month? Good bye March

Ausindo

coke drinker,

This assumes for the sake of argument that Voltaren (wonderful drug by the way!) would give a positive result for a banned family of substances.

As I understand it, you'll not be presumed to be a druggo if your Voltaren tests positive. Once the positive test comes back, you'll be stood down while the boffins further test the sample, determining that it wasn't a banned substance, even though in the first instance a positive test result occurred.

Capt,

The requirement to be stood down is in effect a presumption of guilt until proven otherwise.

I think this is the beef most have with the plan.

Freewheel - from being stood down , a negative result and back at work , how long will the mud stick?.
(" So and so returned a positive result") We should hope that our friends,colleagues and managers understand the system and you're career isn't ruined from gaining relief from a headcold.


Ravan - entitlements will fast run out as most we have approx 10 days sick leave however how long will a course of sudafed stay in you after you've stopped taking it?! I'll be enjoying a few more days off this winter (unless I skip the cold season!) sighting DAMP as the reason.
:uhoh:

I've been led to believe Sudafed PE containing Phenylephrine is ok. The main concern is pseudoephedrine. Out of interest , does PE work for anyone? (it doesn't for me).

Does anyone know what the story is with officially prescribed restricted medications? Have allowances been made?

e.g, A person suffers from the adult version of ADHD and is prescribed dexamphetamine from a specialist. The condition has been well controlled with this medication for many years. Where would this person stand?

The same situation could be said about people with mild epilepsy who take benzodiazepines to control it.

Codeine is persistant and detectable in small quantities that are above the CASA proscribed limit. Say you have tooh ache on the weekend, dose up on panadeine, get tooth fixed Monday and go to work the next day, turn up and get tested, uh-oh positive result, over the limit (when test returns after indeterminate time at lab).

Testing is to evideniary standards so now you can be convicted on this legal 'evidence' of your drug taking.

Another scenario, you are at work have tooth ache, chew a panadiene tablet, but before you can rinse your mouth CASA man shoves a swap in your mouth (you cannot refuse or leave the site of the testing), you say that you just had a tab in your mouth and would like to rinse mouth, or wait 15 minutes and have a second test (same as for alcohol test) but CASA not obliged to do that, they can hang you out to dry from this single sample which is in no way representative of the real event. Yes, it is unlikely, but it is possible and sooner or later WILL happen.

I would also like to see the cost benefit analysis that shows that the tens of millions of dollars that this will cost each year will provide any form of safety benefit. these costs will go from now till forever so get used to it. they may be shared between industry and regulator at the moment, but I for one do not expect anything but full cost recovery in the near future.

yes, I am protesting a lot, but just the same as I do not tolerate pilots who would even think of coming to work with PBA over the limit, or after taking any type of drugs that can affect their performance, I have little tolerance for stupid, worthless, pointless time and money eating nonsense like this that is an empire building exercise in an attempt to fool the general public that CASA is actually making aviation safer! it is the whole security/ASIC thing over again. Useless and pointless.

Bring back the old 'Crash Comic' that would be a damn side more effective as a safety program than this load of dog's vomit.

HD

Harley and others - I've been through this type of testing dozens and dozens of times, and I wouldn't worry too much about it. I'll be infinitely surprised if they actually attempt to pull anyone offline immediately after testing, for anything such as false positives for amphets/cocaine etc. The normal procedure is to give you a quick interview about ANY drugs or medication you've taken in recent history, before the testing - and this is recorded. There's generally an A and B urine sample, in urine testing, properly taken and sealed with tamper-proof seals - they'll eliminate any of the medication you've quoted before any action is taken. And yes, everything can be eliminated - the only problem with false positives are during on-the-spot testing, not with more accurate laboratory testing methods.

If you've tested positive and all the false positives have been eliminated, they'll notify you, and open and test the B sample in your presence.

There are FAR too many legal ramifications, especially in this day and age, for pulling someone offline, potentially affecting them financially and perhaps permanently damaging their employment, due to a false positive on an inaccurate on-the-spot testing method. If CASA are planning to do this, then they'll be getting some rude shocks.

To reiterate a main point - there is NO WAY you will be convicted of any offence, or anything to that extreme, from a false positive. Yes, certain medication can give a false positive - but this is ALWAYS distinguishable at the correct level of testing. Nobody will be losing their jobs after taking Codral (I've tested positive for amphets after taking that, around 2 years ago).

Riiiiiiiiightt.. that's not quote how I'd interpret what's in CASA | Alcohol and other drug use in aviation - How does it affect you? - Organisations (the direct CASA link seems broken)
Page 16 says
Look at it from an employers point of view.,,, someone tests positive (it doesn't matter if it's a false positive), therefore they can't fly or perform their duties, therefore a replacement must be found.
At best this will a nuisance (ie Fred ain't doing anything tomorrow, so he can do this charter), and at worst a real financial problem. (I can't get anybody to this location at short notice, so I've lost this and the next n charters, therefore I've got to cut costs and sack Joe)

Whilst I believe that the intent is noble., the implementation is very legalistic and draconian.
What is written in 'black and white' is what CASA will use to make our lives miserable.
Don't forget that you are dealing with a bureaucracy that has absolutely nothing to lose in wasting your time, money and patience.

The whole idea is wrong!

However.

My Company, as part of their DAMP, has a person to contact.

Ops.... "we need you to fly"

Me.... "That should be okay, I just need to talk to our contact person and then I will get back to you".

Me.... "Hi contact person. The company have called me to fly, but I have a problem, you see I had a tickly throat last Thursday and took a Panadeine"

Contact person........."Not a problem b....sht....bst....bsht.

Me...."Thats fine, I understand that. Fax or email me that I am 100% clear to fly.:ugh:

Zap, no urine testing, only swabs and breath testing.

Biggles/Capt Claret, ok acknowledged - well I'd say CASA have some troubles coming to them then. This is not how you effectively drug test and subsequently treat people. We know how word gets around in aviation - the act of pulling someone offline for a positive test is enough to create potential employment problems for you in the future.

Apologies, every place I worked in that was regularly drug tested actually did it properly, where there were no loose ends and no potential for loss through a false positive. Time will tell.