Qantas Reduces LHR slip Time
 

Qantas has now reduced LHR Slip Time to 38hrs for its Tech and Cabin Crew.
Minimum rest in this port is 36 hrs.If an inbound aircraft is late by more than two hours the crew must have this(36hrs) as a minimum.This means that the next service due to be operated by this crew will accordingly depart late.
Several years ago,in the northern winter,Qantas had 3 jumbos sitting at heathrow with no crew eligible to operate.
Having a local LHR base crew probably gets around this problem.
These new LHR patterns are now more arduous with many patterns now operating SYD/ADL/SIN and then onto LHR.
An already arduous trip has now become more so.Once the A380 starts operating SYD/LHR the trip will become incredibly physically and mentally demanding.
Sick leave and fatigue will increase exponentially.
The human body cannot cope with back to back to back trips of this nature.
Where is the duty of care?
How can crew provide an outstanding level of service when they are exhausted?
Who needs a name badge when you are just a number?

If you don't want them back to back, don't bid for them.
They are not a junior trip and I'm sure plenty of the crew who are forced to do JoBerg back to back will take them off your hands.

Tech crew have had LHR slips around the 38/39hr mark for at least 4 years. The only requirement being that we have to operate 4 crew up and back (which rules out BKK during summer which is 3 crew).

Our min rest is much less than 36hrs up there. Around 20 from memory.

I guess with the LHR base crew operating the 31/32 once the 380 kicks off, something had to change with slip times.

My quick look at BP 262 LHR patterns seems more of the same. There has been a mix of short (39ish) and long (62ish) hour slips for many years.

The agreed planning requirements for tech crew are 1 short slip per day plus a short slip for the shuttler.

The minimum slip is a combination of options but the limiting is usually flight + night. TL is spot on around 20 hours.

Once upline, the minimum requirements may be required.

So the question is, why do Tech Crew have a min rest of 20hrs and Cabin crew 36hrs? Our rules are covered by the Civil Aviation Orders, what dictates it for Cabin Crew?

Yes, the patterns shouldn't be planned to min rest, but during disruptions I don't think it's unreasonable.

The cabin crew EBA requires the lesser of 2 local nights or 36hrs after a planned single sector TOD in excess of 14hrs.
This is reducible to the lesser of, 1 local or 18 hrs by majority vote.

Twiggs..You Just dont Get It
 

The point is that they will become junior trips.Particularly the more arduous trips.
More junior crew will find more of these trips on their line ..back to back
A380 crew cant bid.
Do they have minimum rest requirements?
Twiggs you dont fly do you?

What's the logic here. Larger aircraft: larger crew - what's more demanding?

Looks on the evidence that everyone is comfortable. QF know the planning rules. Crew know the agreement.

With punctuality in the region of 90% this looks like normal risk management. Some late arrivals will result in crew rest delayed departures - but not often.

If all of Northern Europe is clagged, that has been the case forever and the passengers understand.

I think packrat has over reacted to a minor change.

In my younger days I was told by a Senior QF Management pilot that optimum crew rest was 12 or 36 hours depending on preceding slips, because going to bed, getting up fresh and flying beat the heck out of resting for 12 and then wasting 12 hours waiting for the next flight 24 hour after the first. So 36 hours makes sense to me as a planning criterion.

FWIW:)

QCCA vs LHR Base
 

Why have a LHR base when you have QCCA?
QCCA are on the same Ts and Cs as the LHR base.
The administation costs in LHR are a duplication....
Rent,Admin staff wages and all the other ancilliary costs associated with the base.
If the LHR base was closed you would save these costs and still have the same crew cost.
Anyway just a thought
Some of those new LHR patterns are arduos though

It looks like yet another straw has just been placed on the camel's back...

For the pilots reading this you have to understand the basic difference between the job satisfaction of pilots and cabin crew..

Pilots like to fly (preferably during the day) their aircraft,get their hours done and get home...

Cabin crew do not fly for the satisfaction of walking around an aluminium tube for 14 hours or so being hounded by passengers...

International Cabin Crew join or want to fly because of the lifestyle.That means travelling and seeing the world...

With the start of the LHR base there was an agreement that Australian based crew would still get one LHR trip per day leaving Australia.This meant that we could still get to LHR and do whatever you wanted to do.

That meant you could visit relatives,sightsee,shop....whatever.Now since the opening of the base, Australian based cabin crew have had this reduced again and again and now it's down to 38 hours...

It seems as though it does not matter how many things you give the company in terms of efficiency they will always want more...

lowerlobe,

What you say, in theory, sounds correct, but I am astounded at the number of cabin crew who admit to spending entire slips in places like LHR, FRA and LAX in their room or venturing out only for a quick trip to the supermarket.

I would say that on the whole, tech crew are far more likely to be out having a beer, seeing the sights, enjoying good food etc.

Allowances form a much larger proportion of cabin crew pay and are therefore much more inclined to save it!!!

Transition Layer...That may be the case today and especially with crew these days on less pay such as QCCA and BKK,AKL,LHR crew on much lower pay than original Australian based crew...

When I was flying we would do trips,hire cars etc....and it was a lifestyle more than a job.

Sitting in a room was not something we would do unless you were crook.In fact you almost needed a doctors certificate if you did not turn up for crew drinks....

I lost track of the number of times we would get back to the pub literally an hour or two before call...

Then again I also remember when it was tradition that the crew member on their first trip to the US would buy the rest of the crew a slab of beer.Then the suspects in the mushroom factory started telling crew that was wrong so it ended....

Umm. 'Scuse me........Isn't that your job? SERVICE? :rolleyes::ugh: So, being long haul cabin crew is purely a means to get you to a slip port.

No wonder QF's on the nose with punters if that's the general attitude!

See youse! TDI

TDI.

I have to agree.

It sounds as if long haul cabin crew (judging by lowerlobes comments) see the job as a free ticket to their next shopping location. :hmm:

A little more sound than seeing flying as your next free ticket to an alcoholic binge.

You know it's true :ok:

As usual it seems as though some here cannot understand what other people do ,see and think what's important in life....but then again being isolated in a flightdeck might do that to you...

funbags and Co,I said lifestyle..... not shopping and seeing how you either cannot comprehend others posts or try to selectively twist words then a career in journalism could be for you.....:E

However,getting back to your post funbags...did you apply for a job as a pilot because you liked the idea of endless hours in sim sessions?....Or is there more to being a pilot than training in a simulator?

Funbags....I know this might be difficult for you to understand but there are a number of reasons people choose a career and lifestyle is one of them but it's nice to know that tech crew do not shop when they are overseas.....:yuk::yuk::yuk:

Personally funbags,I did enjoy meeting people and that includes tech crew when I was flying and I'm glad that you do your job 100% for the benefit of the company and not for even the slightest enjoyment that you might otherwise derive....:yuk:

Getting back to the thread it's obvious that the company as usual is doing their best to take away any enjoyment crew have in their job so that they stay for as little length of time as possible.

Not even close speedbird.

We see flying as a career. Most of us have wanted to fly since we were little kids. Alot of us have spent tens of thousands getting a license so we can have that career. We have to do an annual medical to keep said license, and we like to have a few drinks at the other end. One "alcoholic binge" (as you put it) too many, and we could lose our job. But of course we like to have the odd big night. In fact it was lowerlobe who said that it was a crime for a cabin crew member not to turn up for crew drinks in the GOD's!

Remember, it was one of your own (lowerlobe) who said that cabin crew fly for a lifestyle. We fly aeroplanes because we love it, and for me, I want to be at home with the family more. Shorter slips (within reason), for me, are great. I couldn't give a toss about the allowances, I spend them anyway, usually on presents for the kids. That's why I agree with lowerlobes comment "Pilots like to fly (preferably during the day) their aircraft,get their hours done and get home...:

You might want to take up your opinions with lowerlobe. He apparently doesn't like the aeroplane bit of a flying career (because the passengers hound him). Cabin crew apparently are there for the lifestyle, and the crew drinks, and the sightseeing bit! I hope the passengers don't get in the way too much!

PS lowerlobe, I just caught your post. I learnt to fly because I like flying aeroplanes. I actually like going to work and the other stuff (crew drinks, travel, shopping etc) are a bonus, and not why I work for Qantas. Enjoy your retirement, realise times have changed, slips will get shorter and things aren't like they were 30 years ago.

Funbags....

Now that's funny because one the more interesting and heated things I have read on Qrewroom was the thread about cabin crew getting more allowances than tech crew at times.....apparently not all your colleagues feel the same as you....

By the way,talking about meal allowances.What is the definition of a tech crew dinner in Narita....

A dozen or more beers and 6 Gyoza's.....
Not that that hasn't happened in Narita after a session at the truck has it Funbags????

Speedbird....It looks like you hit a sore nerve with your comment ....So let's get off the anti cabin crew comments funbags and back to the thread about the slip being reduced in LHR.....

What's next....let's see,how about re-scheduling departure times by 5 minutes so that crew miss out on a dinner allowance...Hang on they've already done that....

Like I said.

You know it's true...............

You sound like one of those blokes that just can't give the job away, especially the politics!

Retire gracefully already, get away from Qrewroom and Pprune (1900 posts!!!!), and go and play some golf, or sail a boat (or lawn bowls).

As for anti cc comments of mine, good to see you've got a few anti tc comments of your own as comebacks! Looks like I hit a raw nerve too!

re NRT and the truck episode, exactly what I said!

Bring on the shorter slips I say! As long as fatigue levels (through proper research) aren't too great, why wouldn't Qantas want to reduce them to minimum levels. We don't have to agree with them, but Qantas aren't there to provide a travel service for the cabin crew to facilitate their sightseeing and shopping overseas!!!!

I've got to go, I'm on a short slip and it's almost time for call. See ya!

Funbags.....I don't know about you but I haven't lost my interest in life simply because I have retired from flying....I do like taking the boat out and fishing not to mention other pursuits but I think I might leave lawn bowls to you when you retire and forget about flying.

As I said Cabin crew join because of the lifestyle and not because we want to to live on an aircraft....

If you want to have a go at cabin Crew then start up a thread about that....

Some people tend to forget that this is a JOB. There are many options out there if you do not wish to spend your time in a tube for 14 hours. For some this is a career and you make the most of what you can when you are out on line.
If slip times are reduced then contact the FAAA. After all, the company is not braking any rules.
Patterns are examined by the FAAA and deemed to be 'ok' before they are released.

ciprian,mate I don't reckon any of us forget what we do is a job and yeah the company is not breaking any rules but they are stretching them all the way to the bank.
The drivers are lucky because most people don't get paid to do what they like to do.I go along with lobey and it is a way of life for us.I don't like anything 9 to 5 or driving in traffic jams everyday to get to work.I would throw an office job in 5 minutes if I was stuck with it.Teachers don't do their job because they like to be bagged by noisy kids but they love it because they are teaching kids skills.Blokes in factory's don't do it because they like getting filthy but it pays the bills and puts food on the table and beer in the fridge.If you look at other jobs it's the same
The way ciprian,funbags & Toluene Diisocyanate go on you would get the idea that the drivers never get upset when the company chips away at their conditions.If we get the sh!!$ about our conditions being taken away some drivers forget that they moan and blue about what their not getting any more and have a shot at us.If you want to remind them all you have to do is talk about Jetstar and remind them about their jobs.
Yeah thats right ciprian,starting Jetstar wasn't breaking any rules but it still takes jobs away from QF mainline and tell me that our drivers are not upset about that.
Calling the union about anything the company does legally is a waste of time.The only thing the company understands is when the crew vote not to reduce their slip and their stuck with a delay.I've seen the drivers do it when it suits them so theres no reason we can't.

Pilots,cabin crew, it doesn't matter. What matters is it within the rules?
If so no one has anything to go on about. The major, major problem will be the full implementation of carmen. Geezus, the first question that should be asked is, how many airlines have had major problems with schedule integrity post full carmen implementation? All because companies get very greedy at the perceived cost savings and tighten the slip times to absolute minimum and then cannot fathom why it turns to a can of worms when there are the inevitable disruptions.
Qantas has only tasted the tip of the 'power' of carmen, once all modules have had their impact on roster construction, have a look at how good 'lifestyles' are then!:ugh::ugh::mad:

Roaming:
Not once did I mention anything about the drivers. Not sure how you include me with funbags and co?

Like I stated before, the FAA has access to the patterns before they are released. What options are out there if no one ones to talk to the company or the FAA?

On another note the company had the option of slipping crew on AKL-LAX runs for 36 hours as they did with the AKL based crew, irrespective if they operated 2 sectors on an A330, but they didn't. All patterns had 56 hour slips.

It has been a long time since we last saw 36 hour slips in LHR but it is not the first. If it is deemed too ardous then waht options are out there if no one wishes to speak to the company about it or the FAA?

There are no options except not to accept a reduced slip in the event of a delayed arrival.
They'll get the message. :ok:

ciprian,mate you said it yourself.I don't know how long you've been flying but in my time I have seen the company push and push the limits of our work rules.
If they do something which technically doesn't break the rules then talking to them is as useful as an ashtray on a bike.You have to understand that they don't give a stuff if we don't like the way it's going.
The only thing the company cares about is money.If delays start costing them money they will think about it but until that happens it is a waste of time.

Am I correct in assuming that the 31 ex LHR will now be operated by LHR based crew on the A380?

If so this will be an interesting development.

AFAIK the Thais are not [yet?] going to be trained on the A380.

Lets see then.......

Daylight flight ex LHR with no Thais on board to do the real y/c work?

Should be very interesting given the reputation of the LHR-HKG day light sector.:E

What reputation is that?

Ah, I give up. Hard work??

Really... News to me and the passengers we have on that flight.

Obtuse, disingenuous or stupid?

I have my suspisions......

Let me help you.

Qantas Pilot's 13 hour night sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end.

Qantas Pilot's 13 hour day light sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end.

______________

Now concentrate. This is the hard part.

Use some imagination [if you can] and try and imagine what happens on the other side of the flight deck door and the differences [if any :rolleyes:] in flight attendant workload between night and daylight sectors.

Speedbird,
the reason we will now be doing the 9 and 10 is because the LHR base will be doing the 31 and 32 which will progressively be on the A380, not 29 and 30 which is the HKG flight.

This also means that if we were to be delayed and voted not to extend, all the company has to do is is send us on the 30 to HKG instead and use LHR base on the 10 to SIN.
It would be no problem for the company, but many crew would not like that and I'm sure it would influence voting.

You must fly the sector alot as you seem to be an expert.

Btw it is an 11 hr sector. Lunch service followed by putting the pax to sleep for 8 hrs before a quick breakfast.

You assume I am tech crew. We prefer the hong kong because it gives us a chance to go out and have a good time. We have often had our passengers invite us out for parties on boats to which we all obliged.

As for what the techies do, I don't care, so long as they get us there safely is all that matters...

Twiggs,

I dont think that you and your office mates have thought this through very well which is understandable given the way this company is mis-managed. You lot have the corporate memory of not much more than a nano second.

The new brooms comes in, sacks everybody they can and replaces them with pet sycophants resulting a net loss of corporate history and experience.

38 hour slips don't work in LHR when the minimum is 36. My point being that it was tried years ago and failed.

Anyway. You make it sound like swapping English with Australian based crews is going to be operationally easy?

I don't have a bid book handy but my understanding of departure times EX LHR suggests that you are seriously wrong.

Of course QF are only working to the letter of the law and as such I can't wait to bid for back to back LHRs to recipricate.

Northern winters can be so much fun. :E

Two hours Twiggs.

You lot never learn.

Scyscanner,

is that the best you can do?

My sincere apologies to all QF drivers. I just twigged that we have a plane spotter in the room. :rolleyes:

Speedbird, can you rewrite that last post when you are sober?

Edited said post for your reading pleasure.

Twiggs,I don't know where you work but you are not doing yourself any favours with your posts!
I don't think it's neccessary to re-quote any of your other posts is it?.

You constantly seem to take the side of the company and to people reading this it gives the impression that you are indeed in the office.
To suggest that the only reason for this change in our slip is to accomodate the 380 flights is disingenuous at best.

The company did promise us a daily trip to London and reducing it yet again to 36 hours really does nothing for that promise.We might as well be in Wagga Wagga if we are asleep in a room recovering after a long flight.
If it is as innocent as you suggest then why not give Australian based crew other flights which gives them more time in London.Even if it ended up as they do with the Frankfurt trips and have a one night slip on the way home it would be better.

This is not however about fitting in with the 380 flights.This is more about making the job less attractive to Australian based crew or at least those Australian based crew not flying the 380.

As far as the company thinks the faster they get rid of us the better.

"Qantas Pilot's 13 hour night sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end.

Qantas Pilot's 13 hour day light sector-

6 hours off asleep in a bunk. The remainder sitting on his/her rear end."


speedbird, so if our jobs so easy, why didn't you apply for it.

Isn't in terrible how all those nasty passengers get in the way of a good shopping trip, or a visit to the London Bridge!! :ugh: