HH, as Led Zep has said, even the "request clearance" bit is superfluous if you have submitted a FP. ATC call your flight plan up the moment they receive taxi/departure notification. They know you have planned to enter CTA, and what level you want. They know you will need a clearance. You will get one when they can issue it, which can depend on the traffic, sector layout (i.e a "CTA" sector overlying a "Class G" sector) etc. Having said that, if you have to maintain i.e FL180 without being told "expect a delay for clearance", I'd pipe up.

Superfluous perhaps, but still correct! Pending, subject to clearance, etc... are not!:ok:

Just because there is crap R/T from the majors and from ATC, doesn't justify individuals to follw suit. Might as well throw the regs out and just chat normally if that's the case.

"Copied you copied no IFR traffic":cool:

"readback of your readback correct" :}

Really who care's! how about concentrating on your own flying, instead of worrying what everyone else is doing! is it going to cause a crash? NO, so dont worry about it!

Getting OT now, but to answer the question, ATC's care, and professional pilots care. Theres nothing worse in a busy R/T environment than having the frequency taken over by some guy (or girl) who uses 20 words to say what could (should) be said in 10. As RS said, standard phraseology is in the books for a very good reason. Is it going to cause a crash? Who knows, but I can think of plenty of scenarios where it could.

Great constructive first post.:D:D:rolleyes:

As a student with 20 or so hours there is no way my calls are perfect 100% of the time but heres why I try and make them so;

1. I hate nothing more than waiting on Downwind to transmit the short 'XXX, Downwind, touch and go' while someone gasses on, it also makes the circuit more stressful, I don't want to put others in the position.
2. Others are expecting to hear the standards if you do something else it throws other pilots.
3. Most people judge other pilot's competencies by their radio calls. You don't want your fellow pilots to think your **** do you?
4. I take pride in what I do, and I want to do it to the best of my abilities

If those four things (especially the third and fourth) don't make you want to get your calls right; well maybe you should have a think about why your spending $200 an hour!

Im all for this topic - can be frustrating knowing that some people dont pick up the AIP and read it, yet we all have to share the same airspace. However things can get a little picky like adding an 's' on the end of a word - who cares!

With regard to a post about the old 'double-click' to acknowledge; we have all done it im sure however if you wish to get down to the nitty gritty - whilst reading the AIP i just noticed that in the event of a speachless radar approach this actually means NEGATIVE!! (if the clicks are 1 second each anyway)

For those experienced guys out there a few 'made up' words are fine - you will actually find they use them because they have a bit of SA about what the controllers need/want given certain situations.

Perhaps were taking things to far - spend a bit of time reading the AIP and do your best. Also don't always do what everyone else is doing!

Highlighting only the " *denotes pilot transmission " in the AIP phraseology section has helped with my radio calls, with emphasis on the " ( ) " required transmission and " [ ] " optional information.

In my opinion, if you're flying RPT or charter, you are being paid to fly professionally and safely. The regulators have created procedures on how to maximise your chances to achieve this

"Use of standard phrases for radio telephony communication
between aircraft and ground stations is essential to avoid
misunderstanding the intent of messages and to reduce the time
required for communication"

A question for the ATC reading...

AIP states that when initiating contact with approach control in a radar identified environment transmit

assigned level, flight conditions, if appropriate, and receipt of ATIS (code)

What do I say regarding to flight conditions? In a procedural environment, I expect to transmit the word VISUAL if a visual approach can be made. In a radar environment, I expect to transmit "IMC" or VMC" only if requested to report. Is "flight condition, if appropriate" a request to report IMC [VMC, if appropriate]?

And another one...

During taxi - cleared to taxi A2, upon frequency change from GND to TWR, twr often say hold short. If A2 was my taxi clearance limit which I am now approaching without any other holding points along the way, shouldnt ATC say "hold position"? I'm not being too anal; I want to know whether i'm holding or holding short.

:8

NOSIGN

mistakes everywhere
 

Yes Howard , I would like to add ---shoule should be should.
MC

Look good on finals, sound god on the radio. Thats the only way others will know how good (or bad) your piloting skills are.

I for one do care. Knowing that there may be people out there with your attitude to the simple things, makes me very concerned.

No one is saying you can't make mistakes when it comes to RT but intentionally talking crap because it 'makes sense' or is 'easier' is just rubbish. As McGrath 50 said people are expecting to hear certain information in a certain order. Anything else said usually detracts from SA rather than building the picture.

We all have the same AIP. Hopefully, we all read it and yet we can't come close to agreeing on radio calls and the AIP does not include all radio calls. It becomes further complicated by the use of the phrase "recomended' and different peoples interpretation of that.

Another one that gives me the squirts is the use of 'guard'.
There's no such thing.
There is, however, a frequency that we monitor and it's 121.5.

While we're all in a sharing mood....

Departure Reports

It makes me shake my head every time someone says....

BN Centre, ABC departed XYZ at time 23, tracking to intercept 145 outbound reference the VOR/NDB......

If you take the time to read Jepps ATC AU-934 you can see that the reference aid is only required if giving the departure report to a tower controller.

Even worse and I not only shake my head but actually cringe when I hear reference the GPS. Ahhhhhhh:ugh:

We need the word visual please.

So - "ABC on descent 9000 received alpha, visual." If no visual is received we assume you are not and process for the IAL. If you later become visual then "ABC, visual" is nice.

Saves me rabitting on about '..descend to 2,500, cleared ILS RWY 21 approach etc" and then in response I get "...2500 cleared ILS 21 approach and we are visual"!! So now do you want the visual approach or do you want the ILS?

out of a regional port called taxi and then out of courtesy as the controller was busy (BN CEN) called "ABC departure YXXX" the controller got back "standby there might be a delay on clearance due crossing traffic"

CLL was 8500 and the APA was set to 8500 as a result of this. Called approaching this level as had the crossing traffic on TCAS about 10 miles long gone and the controller came back "ABC you nearly busted control airspace you are now cleared on climb etc etc"

We informed him that it was company policy to set CLL in the APA and he came back angrily perhaps best to cruise at ifr levels...we put his aggravation down to the end of a long shift. perhaps a case of he forgot about us....we were operating under a IFR RPT plan....

thoughts........

Haha, is that the only thing you picked up HH? ;) Yeah, yeah, I'll show myself out.
I'd also much rather hear a "request clearance" upon departure rather than a rabbit rabbiting on about clearances pending...:E

Like I said. Lack of discipline.

Xeptu, two-oh-six or seven-three-seven, you operate in a system matey, and to put your one tiny little operation ahead of anyone else in the system shows immaturity, lack of big picture thinking, and.. lack of discipline.

ATCOs are not out there to delay you. They are probably dealing with some other undisciplined twit that has not submitted correct details/stepping on someone elses tx/making dogs breakfast radio calls on ATS frequencies!

As someone else said, harden up, get YOUR sh!t in one pile and deal with the real world.

The fact of the matter is that it can and it has.

I have read about numerous aircraft accidents/incedents (mainly overseas) where there was "ambiguity" in a sequence of transmissions because of the use of non-standard phraseology between ATC and/or pilots which attributed to the event.

The fact of the matter is, rules is rules. If you are not going to try and follow standard phraseology, why bother with flying hemishperical or carrying fixed reserve. You know you'll get there ok right?:=

While we are on the subject, another one i love is "XYZ standby....standing by XYZ"

And just for the record, no im not perfect and i like everyone else will sometimes make a balls up of even the most basic radio calls. Most important thing is think before you press that button!!!!!!

"ABC traffic...........3 second silence....aircraft XYZ..........3 second delay.............where am i? 10 miles..........north................correction south..........we are agh.............out of 6 thousand agh...........on descent inbound from the south..............estimate circuit..........mmmm time 42............will position to descend on the dead side and join X-wind runway blah blah............traffic ABC"

:ugh::ugh: