IFR TOPD broadcasts
 

I have brought this up before, but you obviously took no notice. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=275949
There are VFR aircraft out there too.

Heard three times today flying in North Queensland.

BN CENTRE... ABC top of descent placename, request traffic.
ABC... BN CENTRE, No reported IFR traffic.
BN CENTRE... ABC, left eight thousand, on descent placename.

No mention of distance or azimuth. Where does this leave the poor old VFR pilot; in the dark I would say. On each occasion I was at an altitude and distance from placename that would have been on profile for the involved aircraft.

I have an IFR machine and am suitably rated but choose to fly VFR. Why?, because I pay the bills. Today I saved about $140 in enroute charges. When I do fly IFR, I always give a correct top of descent BROADCAST, (as promulgated in AIP), including DISTANCE and AZIMUTH, altitude leaving and estimate for placename arrival.

So, how about it guys? You are all professional pilots, how about showing some professionalism in your flying?

Rant over,
Two Dogs

What are the frequencies involved in these specific cases two dogs? ie Are you suggesting that they then flicked to box two and broadcast on a local freq or that they then made a seperate broadcast on the centre freq? Just trying to bild a picture in my head of what was going on. Were they in controlled airspace and about to leave it? when did they broadcast on local? cheers.

.......ML centre & all stations 126.8 in the xxxxxx area IFR Beech Super KIngair VH-XXX 45 mls SSW passing 7500' (or vacated a particular FLVL or height/alt) on visual (insert vis or in cld) decent inbound, circuit for ldg 06.
This is an Eg. of what I say when changing to a freq that is available to ALL pilots in & around the intended ldg aerodrome. That sums it up in one simple TX.



CW

These descents were in Class G airspace, 118.2 or 122.1, and require a broadcast prior to TOPD. The way I understand it is you;

1. Call centre and get traffic advisory prior to top of descent.
2. Make an all stations broadcast advising descent particulars. This requirement is specifically for the benefit of VFR traffic.

This is not an isolated incident, it occurs all the time in class G in FNQ. Pick any frequency, 118.2, 122.1, 120.3, 118.6, 134.65. Those that are doing it possibly don't realise their errors, as it sounds just the same as all the other calls made in class G.

The other downside is when you question these "professional" pilots as to their location, you get treated with disdain as you are "only a VFR pilot."
I specifically remember talking with turbo prop driver to arrange separation inbound to a port and advised I was on a particular radial at 25 miles, passing 4500ft, only to be questioned "Are you sure you are south-west of the field?" FFS, I have in excess of 5000 hours and seven IR renewals and been flying more than 12 years. I'm pretty sure of the difference between a radial and a bearing.

Time for another Red,
Two Dogs

Ok 2 dogs, have to admit I'm the culprit (or at least one of 'em) So, I presume after I get the 'no IFR traffic for descent' reply from Centre and tell them I've left 8000, I then should do a broadcast that goes something like 'Blar blar traffic, Bonanza XXX, 35 miles blar blar tracking 123 inbound from whoop whoop, passing 7500 on descent, estimating circuit area four five, blar blar traffic'. -and then at 10 miles another similar blar balr broadcast on the CTAF?

Two Dogs,

Please advise the AIP reference. I know it used to be there...

ENR 1.GENERAL RULES AND PROCEDURES

62. DESCENT FROM CONTROLLED AIRSPACE
62.1 Before descending from controlled into Class G airspace and before
separation with any aircraft operating near the base of controlled
airspace can be compromised, the pilot in command of an
IFR flight must report position, level, intentions and estimate for
next position/destination to the ATS unit providing services in
Class G airspace. If the report is made using HF radio, a broadcast
must be made on the appropriate area VHF frequency.

68.4 Use of the collective “ALL STATIONS” must precede a general information
broadcast

Two Dogs,
I agree with you on the airmanship point but you are not talking about descent from controlled airspace you are referring to top of descent in G.

Fact is the AIP doesnt require this eminently sensible broadcast. :ugh:

Since when does an IFR a/c "request" traffic, only time I am aware of when you are deviating off track or intending to change from planned level octa.

Any other time all you do is advise approaching topd and ATC are required to pass on any known traffic for descent octa.

Common sense would then dictate that you would do an all stations broadcast.

Excuse my ignorance but could you please explain to me what the difference is between a "radial and a bearing"

Cheers

Hair splitting really. The intent is obvious. I have bolded the bits I think reflect the intent of the rules.

The quoted paragraphs come from the OPERATIONS IN CLASS G AIRSPACE section (Starts at 56 ends at 65.2)

ENR 1.GENERAL RULES AND PROCEDURES
OPERATIONS IN CLASS G AIRSPACE
...
56. COMMUNICATIONS
...
62. DESCENT FROM CONTROLLED AIRSPACE
62.1 Before descending from controlled into Class G airspace and before
separation with any aircraft operating near the base of controlled
airspace can be compromised, the pilot in command of an
IFR flight must report position, level, intentions and estimate for
next position/destination to the ATS unit providing services in
Class G airspace. If the report ismade using HF radio, a broadcast
must be made on the appropriate area VHF frequency.
...
...
68.4 Use of the collective “ALL STATIONS” must precede a general information broadcast

It's not that hard, see Wally's suggested format for a top of descent broadcast. It's pretty well what I say for my broadcasts and has all the required information for all pilots to be in the loop.

The bottle of Coonawarra is empty, night all.
Two Dogs

Shield,

They are always 180 degrees apart. On an ADF indicator the head of the needle indicates the bearing, and the tail of the needle indicates the radial.

The bearing is on the nose of the aircraft or the direction TO the station.
The radial is on the tail of the aircraft or the direction FROM the station.

If I am on the 180 degree radial, or South of the station, the bearing to the station is 360 degrees or North.

Same as if I am on the 135 degree radial, or South East of the station, the bearing to the station is 315 degrees or North West.

Two Dogs

Two_dogs
 

Do you really? I suggest that you brush up before your next renewal. Radial's belong to a VOR. Bearings relate to NDB's. In my time I've never heard of an NDB radial. For the sake of broadcast, why not keep it simple by making a quadrantal reference to your position ie E, SW etc. Makes it a lot easier for the poor old VFR bloke that gets confused with bearings and radials. If you have conflicting IFR traffic, talk to him about radials and distance.

Um.... Bearing doesnt have to be TO a station. Can also be FROM.

And, being pedantic, aren't radials from VORs only? I.e. When using NDBs reference should be made to Magnetic Bearing From.

So what happened to V in VMC? - The VFR person, who has an absolute right to be there, might be listening to Alan Jones for all we know and does not have to carry a radio or talk to or listen to anyone in G. The first and last line of defence in VMC is the MK 1 eyeball. All this blar blarr on the radio often just goes to clutter up the air waves. and is supefluous to the average VFR anyway who horror of horrors, might be flying an ultralight or a glider and not over familiar with all this blar blar stuff anyway - but has just as much right as anyone to be there. Also, on the average Centre frequency, we are often mixing it with Qantas, Garuda Virgin, United or whoever and I'm sure they are delighted to hear all these excessive blar blar blar calls going on way beneath and well aways from them in CTA - Just another view. (I have 8 renewals.)

This has been a problem for some (maybe many?) years... try a decade! As CASA is responsible for pilot education and recommended radio phrases, then maybe they have failed to do their job (again!).

You are lucky to find an IFR pilot that even mentions the place name in the communication with Center - the pilot knows where he is and so does Center, but nobody else does unless it is included!! Take note when next you hear an IFR notify TOPD.

The other goldern rule is NEVER mention a radial in reference to any b'cast on either area or on a CTAF freq. Use quadrants. I have seen many instances, mainly of VFR pilots (but some IFR) that use a "radial" in their b'cast only to find out they are using the number at the top of their DG and are 180deg out!! If in doubt, I always ask them to confirm they are where I expect them to be using compass quadrants. It sorts a lot out! Rule 2: NEVER use the words "radial" or "bearing" in b'casts - especially when the traffic is likely to be VFR. (for the reasons mentioned above - many just don't know)

Very basically the b'cast you make at TOPD, should be repeated on the CTAF at I suggest prior to 30nm or passing A100 if descending from higher. This picks up the VFR that are still on the CTAF when well outside - and there are lots of those!!

As for "requesting traffic". I don't believe there is a need. It is just a hangover from old procedures. If ATS are doing their job correctly, they will advise you (as an IFR operation) what the traffic situation is. You don't have to ask.

EG: "All stations Broken Hill, IFR type, callsign, 30 south west Broken Hill on descent (level passing) inbound ETA Broken Hill time"

It says to mention the place name twice and many say "all stations place" at the end as well, but if you mention the place name twice already in a logical fashion I suggest that meets the intent !

As mentioned above, I believe this is an area that CASA is responsible for, but due to unknown reasons they have not addressed it in any training package that I have seen in the past decade. Many will remember the bulk changes to to phraseologies etc back in 1997 (yes, when we had to start reading back a lot of stuff we never did for many years, just to comply with the ICAO recommendations). I ask: did CASA ever conduct any follow up training of any sort. Many pilots still get it wrong (including instructors and training Captains) but nobody has ever provided the necessary standardisation that is CASA's responsibility.

A good thread, especially if someone learns from it!! :ok:

two dogs..

have had this discussion many times and even just called the controller on a quiet day and asked "after advising 1 min etc in class G is there any requirement to further advise when vacating" the aswer is NO..

I some cases it does nothing but clutter an already busy frequency..

If you cross a freq boundary on 2 linked freq on decent do you repeat it all on the new one as well...

If you are about to leave say 7 or 9000 in an area that has large "for all operations in this area use XXXX" (MBZ was easier to say !!) coverage that everyone is using anyway, then the broadcast you refer to will be made on that frequency...

at discression I reckon..

This reply is not to stir two dogs up, rather an effort to get it right if I am doing things wrong...

In paragraph 62.1 it says the PIC must report position etc to the ATS unit providing services in class G airspace i.e Centre. It does not mention a general information broadcast to everyone else. Only if you used a HF radio a broadcast must be made. From your examples you've used VHF frequencies so this doesn't apply.

From the Controller's point of view, he has to have the notification of intent to change level/descend and his requirements are filled. The controller is correct as there is no requirement to report having "left" a level when OCTA (G). However this thread is about the need to include the VFR traffic in the exchange.

If your notice to descend is worded in such a way that it is also a b'cast to all and sundry of where you are and what you are doing then maybe the intent is filled, but only if you start your call with "Center and all stations" otherwise the VFR may not digest the call (??). My experience is that it is easier to make 2 calls: one to comply with the notice of intent to descend, and two: to b'cast your intentions on an all stations basis (on the G freq). To catch all, this second call needs to be repeated on the CTAF freq.