Wyndham Aviation.....Charming? (Not)
 

If this is indeed true, Wyndham Aviation sound like a charming bunch of fellows.

Nothing like giving a helping hand to our indigenous brethren when they need it. I wonder if it's possible to confiscate the aircraft and jail the pilots and operators?

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...3-2702,00.html

Nuthin new there, pilots for the long expired K**gfi***r where chartering the a/c themselves to do the same at Hooker Creek. They were making thousands each flight. They werent the only ones either.:= Actual operators were unaware as they were based in Perth and only saw a charter on the books.

What about this Tailwheel?
 

Surely this is lower fruit for you. I am stating fact and it would appear you are allowing sub-judice?

flying-spike, the posts above relate to matters already in the public domain. As they are direct quotes by the Coroner, derived from reliable witness evidence, one would believe the allegations are true and correct.

Had the potentially defamatory allegations above been made purely on here say with no substantiating evidence (whether in fact, true or untrue), they would have been correctly removed by a Moderator.

Are you sure that CASA are not prosecuting over the alleged overloading? My point is that just because a coronial inquest has been held it doesn't mean that investigation and possible prosecution based on evidence given during the inquest doesn't follow.

Australian law does not work that way. In general, evidence gained from a Coroner's Inquest can not be used as evidence in another Court.

I have no interest in whether CASA prosecute or not. My sole interest is whether the quotes contained in the first post above, exist in the public domain.

If The Australian has been untrue in it's report here, their financial resources to defend a libel and defamation action are significantly greater than PPRuNe's non existent resources to defend a similar action.

Jail the pilots?
 

Sunfish, i don't really see your point here. Any pilot willing to risk his own life, and the lives of others by overloading his/her plane is an absolute freakin moron! So i get that bit.
I don't get your point about the booze running. Is alcohol illegal in this community? If yes then yes the pilots should be charged, and the aircraft confiscated. If not what's you point? Are you saying that our " indigenous brethren" shouldn't be allowed to make decisions regarding their alcohol consumption? Surely you wouldn't advocate imprisoning pilots because they're carrying legal alcohol?

Really not trying to be a smart ass here mate, but it's a big can of worms to open up.

Cheers.

I think he is questioning the ethics of a practice that most of us know has been happening for far too long.

If telling yourself "it's their decision" helps you sleep at night then great.

I don't think anyone is going to be jailed for it.

Why? Its not illegal to charter an aircraft for freight is it?

Well, I believe her and she can show me around the back of that jet any time!

Seriously though, what a bunch of hangers on - and we thought things in NSW were bad. Couldn't believe who was there as WAcareflight expert!

Oombi (AKA Forrest River), is a dry community, but I wonder if they crew have actually done anything wrong (other then morally and overloading the aircraft).

Is it illegal to use somebodies key card if you have their consent? I use my wifes all the time. Booze is not a dangerous goods, so no law broken there. Is there a gazetted bylaw banning the carriage of alcohol into Oombi???

I don't condone this sort of thing. You dont have to look too hard to see the effect of a 'red can' or a 'white lady in da boat' has on the indigenous people. But they should be made accountable for their own community.

I'm amazed though that this story is true. I had always put it down to a Kimberly myth.

this says it all really :)



http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/phot...181333_135.jpg

Well I actually worked there a few years ago so I can speak having seen it all first hand.

Yes the air charter kept keycards and peoples PIN numbers, up to 55 at one stage while I was there.

The key cards were willingly left by people from this community and Kalumbaru for that matter to pay for flights. More often than not we carried grog on the flights as well people, but very little of the key cards we held were actually used to pay for the grog. They made their own arrangements with the bottle shop in that dept.

While I may not agree with the way many businesses held key cards (dont just single out Wyndham Av!) there was nothing illegal being done. These people have very little understanding of the value of money or how to manage it and if we did not hold there keycards and allow them to pay off flights over a period of time they would not be able to travel or eat! To that i mean if we charged them up front for a full flight in one hit they would have no money left til there next welfare payment. At least this way it was a form of credit and trust between both parties. Many kept a close eye on how much they owed and the owners of these businesses knew if they ever ripped people off news would spread very quickly and they would be out of business.

As for overloading, well it never happened while I was there.

I dont think you can blame the pilots for any of this. Like previous people have said, no rules were broken, while I am not condoning it, it opened my eyes to how the Aboriginal welfare system operates, and how businesses operate in the Kimberely. It has left me with a scathing view on the whole welfare system and the aboriginal communites. Like Monople said these communities need to be held responsible for themselves and not try to blame everyone else.

It is definately true.

I agree though...they are adults responsible for their own actions. No-one is forcing them to charter aircraft full of booze

MACH082

You may wish to delete the first photograph. It is now a long time since I have practiced law but there is a good chance that you are at legal risk for publishing that one.

Not saying it is fact just there is a risk. Something about infringing the subject's rights comes to mind.

This is a friendly heads up, not a brickbat.:ok:

Obviously Sunfish you have spent to much time in the big smoke.
Cessna C206 is the black man's taxi.
How did the coroner come to the conclusion that the aircraft was dangerously overloaded?

And I like this bit:

Quote:
He said (To the Coroner) the situation had been uncovered when police were called in to investigate a burglary at the company's offices in 2004 in which the cards were stolen.

You mean to tell me this was the first time the police knew of this practice! Ha ha they all knew it was going on!

Monopole, maybe that was a typo but Oombie is NOT a dry community.

Mach080 you need to edit your post and at the very least obscure the poor man's face (or just get rid of that insensitive photo altogether).


Remember that lasting social change only ever comes from the inside. Yes outsiders can help and encourage but should never dictate. Tragically (and yes I do know the true meaning of tragedy) the people of Oombie have decided that alcohol will be allowed in their community and have given the businesses serving their community rules by which they must operate governing the days, type and quantity of alcohol permitted. I personally believe that they permit way too much... but as I wasn't a resident they didn't let me vote.


FRQ CB

The Facts-sunfish
 

I was working for Wyndham aviation at the time of said. I'll keep this short:

FACTS-
*Wyndham Aviation closed its doors a year ago. The owner Retired and the AOC sold.
*Ombie is not a dry community!
*A/C DID NOT FLY OVERLOADED!!!!
*Holding of keycards is a common practise in the town of Wyndham and Kunners. I believe it may also be legal if handled and done correctly.I recall a certain department who gave us advise on the holding of keycards.
*Wyndham aviation worked closely with the police and local Grog stores and alcohol was restricted to certain times and days.
* Yes there are and we're massive drug and alcohol problems in these towns and communities ( not the fault of Wyndham Aviation as you seem to suggest).
*The pilots working at Wyndham aviation at said time we're responsible hard working people who valued safety!
*Wyndham Aviation was a well established small charter company with over 30 years operating in the Kimberlies

SUNFISH, If you would like to chat and clarify a few things PM me. It seems you have been miss informed.

Amateurs, the now defunct company I worked for in Darwin between 1999 & 2001, kept around 250 keycards!:eek:

This practice was known about and approved by the banks concerned, the only difference was the money was never used to pay for grog, only flights.:hmm:

I would not say that Sunfish has been misinformed.

He is just one of many city people that draws conclusions from media reports about the aboriginal situation. He has obviously (unlike many others here) not experienced the Kimberely or an aboriginal community for himself.

I find it is the people in large cities that often have such a sympathetic view towards the aboriginal plight and yet most have never even had a conversation with an aboriginal in their life! The top end is another world and unless you have experienced it people in cities just dont know what really goes on.

Checkerboard.......

Hear hear :D:D

My experience with the 'problem' was gained in C310s with SAATAS out of Darwin to all ports north on Bathurst and Melville on Saturday afternoons. I then (so-called) graduated to DH114s with Connair more or less doing the same thing.

Having a very drunk 'guest' spewing on me while doing the trim sheet at BTI one afternoon certainly 'cemented' the indelible memory for me of the not-so-fun situations and unhappy memories of booze runs in 'paradise'..............NOT.

It wasn't pretty! :{

Checkerboard i reckon you're pretty right there mate.

There are so many complex issues in regard to the Aboriginal communities up North, especially when it comes to drinks! In this case what should be done? If the community has "self determined" that they want booze, then isn't that their call? The alternative would be paternalism, and we know how that went over last time!

I had all the problems solved in my first month up there. Then at the three month mark i wasn't so sure anymore. By six months i knew, i knew nothing.

These blokes at Wyndham Aviation probably didn't feel so great about flying booze, but they are not responsible for the actions of the adults that bought it!

Cheers

No they are not responsible but they sure as hell provided a f*cking market didnt they!

Lucky the mainstream population doesn't read this horsesh*t because I'm embarrassed by the "can of worms/its so complex" attitude.

Every last one of you who has dealt with these communities knows the absolute catastrophe alcohol has been for these people.

Hell who gives a sh*t, in a year I'll have my jet job eh?

Opportunist abound everywhere in every field. Aviation is just another form of transport into places as being discussed here. The grog problem at indigenous communities stems from two fundamental things. The white man who came & changed the aboriginals way of life many years ago (whether they wanted it or not) & therefore introducing the ways of at the time modern civilization and the fact that isolation & the ability to not be able to similate into the white mans way of life has given these people little reason to do anything else and has left us (white fellas) with an unsolvable problem of which aviation is just part of it. Fix the core problem (if at all possible) & then discussions like this wouldn't exist.

Am sure the use of planes has been used many times for the transportation of booze into areas where it's not allowed but does prosecution eradicate that problem? I doubt it but 'Fred G' is right, we are responsible for what we created in the first place to some degree.

Personal opinions only as always


CW

So Mr Gassit, are you suggesting that the Pilots should be making decisions with the welfare of these people in mind?. Get real. they are paid to fly the aircraft that the Aboriginal people CHARTER.... not try and change the existing culture and mindset of these people.
It IS a complex problem, and certainly nothing pilots or charter companies wish to IMPOSE on them, will change anything other than the mode of transport............ so your last statement,
Is exactly what the pilots should be thinking.

And who are we to tell them they cannot drink???, whilst we provide them with the income, and protection of the law to do so?. They are a self determining people, and are free to do as they wish, and it is legislated for them to do so.
Pilots fly aircraft, Not make government policy. People paying for a service should not be questioned or limited in the service provided, as long as it is lawful, regardless of the skin colour.
Governments make rules that govern the babysitting process.

I certainly dont remember creating this problem. and feel absolutely no responsibility for it.

Thanks for the back up W, was up too late last night and probably used harsher language than I intended but I stand by the sentiment and we have to take some responsibility for what happens.

I dont envy young operators being put in that position as they have for so long (especially the ones bothered by this practice)

First of all, the information I posted comes from the Australian, it relates to a evidence presented at a Coroners Court and it is in the public domain.

To those who posted regarding the holding of bank cards and PIN numbers by charter companies, thank you for explaining the logic and necessity of this practice. You might try and tell the Australian or the Coroner about this as well, because "The Australian" article implies, in my opinion, that it was done for an immoral purpose.

Contrary to suggestions here, I am no stranger to the problems of Aboriginal communities and have spent considerable time around the top end over the years and I've seen (but thank God haven't lived in) quite a few from Doomadgee to Fitzroy Crossing. I also thought that the warning "watch out for the empty flagons" on the Tanami track was a joke, until I saw otherwise.

I know alcohol and Aborigines is regarded as a "complex problem" by some, but I understand that "dry" communities are generally happier, and the legislation regarding the bringing of alcohol into them is pretty tough. If Oomby isn't dry, then poor Oombi.

What pisses me off are the "White Enablers" of a lot of these problems, like the pub in Katherine selling wine casks straight off the pallet.

...And if any of you top end pilots fall into that category, shame on you.

Should pilot's feel guilty then for flying in the garbage food for the community stores, seeing as obesity and diabetes is such a massive problem?

Should pilot's feel guilty for flying passengers to certain Asian destinations because they may be exploiting people in the illegal sex trades?

etc, etc...

As wiz wrote, I get paid to fly an aeroplane within the law. I have flown grog into "wet" communities. I have refused to fly, and involved police when necessary, passengers trying to take grog into their "dry" communites. I have seen many keycards kept to pay for flights (only). I sleep really well at night.

By the way ... How's Clear Prop going ? Margaret still chasing for child support ?

Just stepped into the middle of a blue outside the Fannie Bay shops
Nullanullas the works
An old drunken bat screeched at me "PONE DA PUKIM POLISE!"
I said do I look like pukim pone box?

Ya just gotta love 'em

2008...RUDDS Closing The Gat....er....Gap :hmm:

The "problem" of companies holding debit cards and pin numbers is well known to the banking industry. A few years ago I was working for a company that organised a charter for a mob of about 30 quite high ranking people from the banking and finance industry from Alice Springs to Aryeonga so they could see the practice in action.

Very thoughtful mob on their return as the vast majority had never been to Central Australia before let alone an Aboriginal community. I think some thought a remote area was south western suburbs of Sydney.:ok:

I worked for a company in 2000 that kept debit cards and pin numbers for unpaid charters. Every morning we would swipe the card until the debt was paid and then return it when next we saw the passenger. I was told of one company whose owner had a card reader at his house and would swipe them when he woke so as to beat any person who may have had another card. The practice was common. We only used it to pay for charter flights though.

"White enablers"???
 

Sunfish ol sport

a long long time ago I worked in the bottle shop in a town... ah, shall we say "similar" to the one under discussion.

Yeah OK I worked at Vaggy's.... it was a good job :ok: and a good education :eek:

Oombi then was a dry community and the president of the community council made it very, very clear that any air charter company caught bringing booze into the community would be banned from Oombi forever.

That made life very difficult for Ord Air (as was), being the closest provider of transport to the closest source of booze. The pilots and staff of Ord were very dilligent in ensuring that no grog got on the planes.

The president, meanwhile, brought his boat into town, it was loaded up to the gunwhales, and he set sail back up the mighty Forrest River with his monopoly unmolested by the Yankee Capitalist Sky Pirates you so deplore :yuk:

I went up the Kimberley straight from Uni with stars in my eyes and my (bleeding) heart on my sleeve.

I returned with my eyes wiiiiide open, scars inflicted by those I tried to help, and a tale my Sydney acquaintences wouldn't believe.

Too many shades of grey in this world for judgements & moral outrage :=

well haven't times changed. back in my day you wouldn't be caught dead not flying a 206 pod load of VB in and a load of turtle meat or something else out and about 20% overweight with the CoG off the page.

good character building stuff that seems to be lost on the current crop, shame.

rutan around
 

Alcohol is allowed in Hooker Creek provided you have a permit. They have one of the better systems. Anybody can obtain a permit-black white or brindle so there can be no accusations of discrimination. If anyone commits an offence involving alcohol they lose their permit.It seems to work.Perhaps other communities should copy instead of having a different set of rules for every place you go.
It always amazes me how sidewalk "experts" know that a plane is overloaded. They must know the weight of the cargo the pilot the px's the fuel and the empty aircraft. For the benefit of P-pruners not familiar with the Wyndham area a return trip to Oombie is about 20 minutes.A C210 or C206 would need to carry less than 90 litres of fuel. It would probably run out of room before it reached gross weight.
I have been visiting these hell hole Aboriginal Concentration Camps for more than 10 years now. If I lived in those conditions and was as bored as they are I'd drink too. Governments should remember that repeatedly doing things the same way and expecting a different result is the first sign of madness.

Yes!........but my question is if it is ethiical?


I'm sure it is covered by the AIP.

Its your opinion and your entitled to it.

Like any bottle shop.....

No-one is forcing people to buy anything. If Australian citizens choose to live in that way and I'm glad that they have the choice to live in that manner. Have you ever thought that they may enjoy their lifestyle?

Again this topic has been done to death.

What has ethics got to do with flying a plane (or aircraft for the fanatical)? Seems to me the pilots did their job well under trying conditions. Their only responsibility is to get the pax and freight safely from A to B, everything else being legal of course.

As for the social problems – well we can thank our elected officials for doing the job we pay them to do. That is to keep the problem swept under the carpet with welfare payments and preferential treatment so we can sleep better at night.

The only solution starts with abolishing any welfare (by some transitional means) and integrating the aboriginal population by recognising them as just Australians of aboriginal descent. No different to you or me. Until this happens we’ll be reading articles like this in the paper for decades to come – that’s if there are any “indigenous brethren” left.

- I'm sure you MEANT to say "WE are a self determining people".....aren't we all the same nationality, with the same rights, obligations, privileges and responsibilities?

The pilot is no more responsible for misuse of alcohol in this location than the truckie is in Brisbane, Melbourne etc.

And FWIW, while I have no answers to the problems discussed here, I suspect they might start with a bit of self respect and self reliance....just a question of how to introduce those concepts into a 3rd and 4th generation Welfare society....?:(