Deceptive Position Call at Longreach
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an aircraft on a 2 mile final has priority over others and you're not supposd to cut in front or overtake, and your circuit position call call should be accurate and truthful.

As I discovered yesterday, some pilots think because they might be a Lawyer or Doctor or Instructor or a Committee member of a Flying Club (or even all of the above) means they can do as they please when it comes to joining a circuit.

Flying in to YLRE yesterday on a 2 mile final I heard a home built called left base RWY22, so he should be out to my left. WRONG! This guy turned base abeam the threshold of the RWY ,turned final over the piano keys, and landed about 2/3 down RWY22.

Deliberately deceptive circuit position calls cause mid-airs. This guy might think he's smart but in reality he's stupid and endangering life.

Ovation,

I don't think the call was deceptive, it's just that the pilot flew an extremely close base leg. In his/her mind, they were on base when the call was made.

Walrus

I'm sure there's a minimum distance from the threshold that you have to be established on final (is it 500 meters?).

He is probably a cow cocky that may not know much better - thats how close he flys his circuits on his own strips.

YLRE can be an interesting place to fly in and out of, because you get the RPT guys mixing it with the cockys that only fly into a CTAF once every year to get their periodic done. Throw the odd other lightie (like FTDK) and an RFDS Kingair at the same time and the poor old cow cocky just about craps himself.

There is one guy that comes into town (not YLRE) every year for his annual and he comes up on the twr freq something like this;

"Um gidday fellas, its me and I'm coming in from the west and I'll be there about 10 o'clock."

... and thats about all you hear from him.

So the poor bloke or sheila in the twr scrambles to separate traffic from him.

They might give him instructions to "report joining left base for RWY 15" and his reply is "Yeah righto, I'll just use this one here" and then he lands straight in on 04.

There is a thing called a 225 you know.....

Ovation

Forget the 225 unless you feel your safety was seriously compromised.

There is no value in getting up a head of steam over this sort of thing. It is just a fact of life in places like YLRE. Has been that way for the 30 years that I have been flying into there.

Dodging the b*ggers is all part of aviation in the bush - adds to the satisfaction of having survived another journey.

At YBMA the other day, FTDK on a 5 nm final Rwy 16.

Me: Isa traffic, XXX is on a 5 mile final runway 16, Isa.

Cow Cocky in his 172 at a mid-Rwy holding point: Ah, XXX is it OK for me to just duck off on Rwy 34 ahead of you.

Me: YYY, negative hold your position.

I chatted him while taxying in about wanting to take off in the opposite direction to me while I was on finals. He said he thought I was on finals for 34 (maybe he should have looked out the window - I had the landing lights on!).

I have no doubt that his intention was to take off towards me and do a split-arse turn off the deck!

Dr :cool:

It's was interesting to watch a certain crop sprayer's arrival at Swan Hill. It was the closest I've ever seen to a "circling approach" - just a continuous turn from an impossibly close downwind leg that had him on runway heading as his wheels touched.

He was in his chair with feet up and a beer in about two minutes flat.

If you were flying a straight in approach, then you do not have priority. You must give way to aircraft flying a standard traffic pattern.

Now I am not defending the pilot other for flying what was probably not a standard pattern....

Bevan..

My comments were not to say that the other person was entitled to such a close base, only that that sort of approach could have been normal for them and there may have been no intentional deception with the radio call.

Walrus

Poor airmanship seems to be on the rise again!

Forget about what YOU think may be legal, how about WE just do what is RIGHT by the book and by other users of the airspace!!!

Actualy Atlas there is no such thing as a 225 anymore, now called an ASIR. Same fish different scales!

richo

I must be getting old!

I fully understand on a straight-in approach I should give way to an aircraft landing off a normal circuit, however at some point on final that has to change to the aircraft that was #1 to land.

Can anyone elaborate just when that point occurs? After the straight in aircraft is 500' AGL and 1.5 M?

This idiot who cut in front of me did not position his aircraft at the normal base position of 45 degrees from the threshold, nor did he announce that his base turn was "early" commencing before abeam the threshold.

No real danger because we saw it all happen, but seriously poor airmanship IMHO (and bad manners).

.............................even before they re invented the rules & allowed straight in approaches in a CTAF (for which I feel is just to unsafe) for all this type of poor airmanship was happening. Now we are allowed under certain conditions such as radio equipped A/C etc. to wander on in with no flying of at least 3 legs of a standard circuit. It does boil down to airmanship something that as someone else mentioned here is lacking. A safer arrival in these cases would mean to overfly the circuit 500 above circuit pattern like we all used to do & join accordingly therefore minimizing the hazards. I know that time is money in an aircraft but a mid-air means money also, in a whole lot of different ways! There's always an element of risk in our trade & it's a calculated risk that only the PIC can asses.

See & be seen I think the boffins have labelled it!..........feel comfy in the fact that having seen & avoided the for mentioned event that it was handled in a professional mannor by the 'correct' pilot.

As for AG planes?............well don't get me started on those cowboys!......like some truckies.................I was once told by a heavy hauler in response to my statement "you guys think you own the road!"...........he said........nope...........just the black bit !!!!!

Capt Wally..............safer at Flight levels

"even before they re invented the rules & allowed straight in approaches in a CTAF (for which I feel is just to unsafe) "

I gotta disagree!

Straight-in approaches = best thing since sliced bread. Do'em ALL the time!

1) Listen on Area and CTAF frequency.
2) Make appropriate calls on Area and CTAF frequency.
3) Turn all your lights on
4) LOOK OUT THE FRONT WINDOW TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE CIRCUIT AND ON AND AROUND THE RUNWAY.
5) If anything pops up that you don't like the look off - break off the straight-in Appr, rattle upwind on the "Dead" side of the circuit (descend or climb to circuit height as required) and come around for a normal Appr and landing.
6) From short final, tell anyone who gets in your way to "f*ck off", unless safety dictates a go-round!

I cannot see what the problem is!

Some of you need to get out into the real world a bit more.

Dr

PS: Most of the Ag pilots I have come across have been top operators. They have a job to do. Keep you eyes open, work in with them, and let them get on with it.

Straight ins are a normal part of an efficient operation. I conduct them whenever I can. I find sitting out there on a 5-7 mile final gives a good chance to appraise what's going on the circuit and you can still make adjustments to fit in with other traffic if there is any.

The ag blokes out there can teach us all a thing or two about how to manipulate an aircraft through the air.

It's amazing how motivated you can be to streamline your appraoch when you are flying a machine operating at around $1200 / hr

FTDK :ok: - not sure about point 6 though.

...

Ovation -




...

Right!!
 

Werbil has got it right. The less time you are in the circuit, the safer it is.
Visibility is poor during turns (particularly in a high wing aeroplane), so the less turns you do the safer it is.
Many of our rules are inherited from the military, and the time when there were swarms of tiger moths in the circuit without radios.
Change can be good.

I had a good long read of the new rules when they came out a few years ago, and the 2 main points I was able to decipher out of it all were:-

1. Although you need to be established at 5 miles on final, you are not required to make a call AND you do not have right of way.

2. At 3 miles you are required to make a call, you are considered to be in the circuit, AND you now have right of way.

Well, there you go. I knew that it was in the regs somewhere.

..........what where all you guys doing before they invented straight in approaches????................at least 3 legs of a curcuit.....................didn't see too may of you lot jumping up & down like you are now saying it's gotta be better...............that's why for a zillion years there where no straight in approaches (visual that is) allowed. too damn dangerous. Sure the RPT boy where allowed to b4 GA at certain AD's but that's because they had RT contact on the ground for first hand info. Change is good but not when it's abussed! See how someone here is motivated by the dollar...............hope I don't meet you in the dollar world curcuit !:-
As for the AG cowboys?, got nothing to do with they could teach us a thing or two about flying, I can't do what an AG plane can do neither can they do what an 8 ton mach 0.8 machine will do, horses for courses, (did you not learn properly in the first place?)...........well obviously most have not been at the controls of 5+ tons when a 'cowboy' decides to drop on in extremely close via a x strip that would have been out of the range of most GA A/C's x-wind capabilities & sail past as if they where King D...!!! Look at the end of the day we all have to work together (obviously) so lets appreciate everyones views here & learn something from them

capt Wally:-)

Well yeah right Wally, I think.

Oh dear...:(
huh?:confused:
Luckily I know that not all 5+ tonne pilots are tarred with the same brush, unlike us ag folk.:hmm:

PS what is the MTOW of an airtractor 802?

And what's so different about 5 tonne aeroplanes? Flown plenty of 0.5 tonne aeroplanes and flown 400 tonne aeroplanes, all do pretty much the same thing. If some cowboy drops in in front of you, the 0.5 tonne aeroplane has 0.5 tonne + a little bit of lift and the 400 tonne aeroplane has 400 tonne + a little bit of lift. Use the appropriate amount of lift and get out of the way! Can't be that hard surely.
:confused:

.......pigdog............ obviously you missed the part about 'energy management' in a heavy jet endorsement lesson...................0.5 tonne plane will get out of the way of almost any hazard with a quick instant response from the controls...........400 tonnes or even 5 tonnes for that matter simply will not be that agile & turn at a far greater arc now wouldn't it be interesting to see an AG plane cut off a 747, the Capt might choose to go right thru him seeing as he would have scant little time to do much else !.....anyway am not going to debate about that all of this is just opinions..............if you & most of the others out there think that all AG operators out there are playing by the book then you ought to check on the gnomes at the bottom of yr garden they too are laughing ! :)

Capt wally :-)

Well well wally, what a stuck up indivudal. While you sit in your little cockpit and label people as cowboys and such, spare a thought for others who use the airspace in your 8 ton little world. ( oh by the way a lot of agricultural aircraft weigh over 7.2 tons today) Time for you to go back to your latte set old chap and dream about what you could of been, instead of bitter and twisted!

........ahhh my poor unlearned college (sadly). I see yr level of intell doesn't quite fit here as you have displayed.............remember to be in that world you say I live in I had to start at the bottom (where you still are!). Anyway personal attacks show a low level in many ways.........that yr obviously good at, stay there "sumhorizon" there's no room for the uneducated further up the professional food chain!:) My comments are mine only from personal experience, not directed at any individual as you sadly like to do. Also have a look at what this site is called PPRUNE..........then first letter is Professional, something that you & no doubt others whom will show their ugly faces here by attacking me sadly lack!......now where's yr SOH buddy?...............only hope yr not in a 2 crew environment.......God help the Capt for surely yr not as such!:rolleyes:

Capt Wally :)

[QUOTE]Capt Wally..............safer at Flight levels.... Yes you need to stay there, but make sure that your Capt takes control for you below 10000'. That way we will all be in safe hands!!!

Capt Wally, I am quite aware of radius of turn and manoueverability of large and small aircraft.

Firstly radius of turn depends upon one thing and one thing only and that is airspeed, not size of the aircraft. Due to the incredible hi lift devices used on many heavy aircraft, they are able to manouever at speeds similar to some lighter aircraft, they will therefore have a similar radius of turn. An A380 at mlw has an approach speed of 137kt, a Piper Aerostar could easily be doing 200 kts in the circuit. At these speeds the A380 will have a significantly smaller radius of turn.

Secondly, manoueverability is dependant upon two things, size of flight controls and thrust available maintain airspeed. Many larger aircraft have stabilisers, essentially meaning that the entire horizontal tail surface is a flight control. In roll they not only have relatively large ailerons which are augmented by spoilers. This means that if required the aircraft has incredible manoueverability in pitch and roll. Additionally if abrupt pitch changes are made, the aircraft most likely has sufficient thrust to ensure that the aircraft can climb away easily. Compare how a lightweight twin jet such as a 737 is able to climb away compared to a Cherokee 6 or similar. You cannot tell me that the lighter aircraft has a better ability to climb out of the way of trouble.

There are many factors that effect the amount of airspace an aircraft may use when manouevering, but weight is not primarily one of them. The primary factors are speed, thrust and flight control capability.

I am not condoning any unprofessional behaviour when flying in CTAF's etc, just trying to point out the flaw in your argument regarding weight and manoueverability.

............pigdog yr way over the top now, I wasn't going to go into the intricacies & depth like you have made here, you would loose a lot of pilots that fly more basic machines & rarely consider yr statements, there's inertia also ( a factor you didn't mention) as you would know that has a lot to do with an aircrafts ability esspecially a heavy craft to 'get out of the way quickly',am more concerned about A/C's positions such as prior to ldg therefore no where near circuit speeds etc..............I'm not going to go back & forth here with you butting heads or anyone else for that matter,am sure none of us here want to be insulted by the uneducated. As you seem to know more than most now there's also engine response time (thrust as you mentioned) in order to assisit in getting out of the way of an intruding plane, turbines are slower to react esspecially just before touchdown, but we both know that now don't we :-).If my words appear flawed to you as you say then that's purely yr assumption & I didn't get the basic point across to you in the first place.

The original comment was refering to the cowboys within the AG industry, (I also mentioned elsewhere that I met a few great ones since passed away sadly) there's cowboys in all facets of aviation, not picking on them persay just poor airmanship seems to go hand in hand with some of them & one can only make those assumptions from first hand experience like everything, something along the lines of the original thread of poor airmanship.

And ty 'sumhorizon" at least this time you where not insulting. I'll ask the Capt to take over blw 10k ft, I only hope I listen to myself !:)


Capt Wally

Clearing the air!!
 

Capt Wally.
Have seen lear jets do barrell rolls on take off, Dash 8's do low level beat ups and countless other reckless acts. But never have I classed your industry as a bunch of cowboys, you have them and so do we but neither you or I deserve to be classed as such. I took offence to your remarks as did a lot of my industry. Here is looking to more fruitfull debates in the future.:ok:

.....hey sumhorizon that's fine, I always mentioned the fact that there are rouge elements such as cowboys in all sectors of our industry,not just yrs (if that's where you fly). barrel rolls in a Learjet?........shall take yr word on that although just about any plane could do that with a positive G maneuver as did the prototpye 707 ) It's just that the original thread was aiming at poor airmanship & the AG fraternity where mentioned before I hoped in on the bandwagon, they have their fair share of them as we all do. I didn't invent the word cowboy for the AG guys, just happen to agree that's all, am sure those in that sector know only too well they operate like that, & quite often!......yes more fruitful debates, without being personal ok?:ok: So shall we drink to that?

.....................Capt Wally:)

Have'nt done Ag now for a few years(bloody drought) Mostly overseas flying survey now, but will definatly go back to Ag if it ever rains again!!. And yes I think I'll nearly drink to anything.

Thanks for the PM sent to me concerning the pilot of the homebuilt that made the deceptive circuit call at Longreach. If everything I was told is kosher his lack of airmanship is becoming commonplace and likely to attract the attention of the authorities. My ATSB incident report was filed last Friday. Maybe there'll be more.

Capt Wally,

Re maneuverability issues:

1) A fully loaded AG plane has minimal excess power / thrust available - first runs can require the aircraft to be nursed into the air with very gentle turns until some product is sprayed / spread. :eek:

2) An 802 IS a turbine and also has "engine response lag" :ugh:

3) Basic physics / aerodynamics - a 400 ton aircraft generates 80 times the lift of a 5 ton aircraft and 400 times the lift of a 1 ton aircraft. If the controls can generate the same pitch / roll rates (and you don't stall because of a higher wing loading) it will be just as responsive as a lighter aircraft at the same speed. :ugh:

Pig Dog :ok: - well explained.

W

PS In the old days I remember hearing and seeing numerous regional airliners "joining downwind" on a 4nm final. It is safer now days because at least you know where they are. :ok:

PPS I don't fly AG - mind you I'd love to if didn't involve chemicals.