Deceptive Position Call at Longreach
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Deceptive Position Call at Longreach
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an aircraft on a 2 mile final has priority over others and you're not supposd to cut in front or overtake, and your circuit position call call should be accurate and truthful.
As I discovered yesterday, some pilots think because they might be a Lawyer or Doctor or Instructor or a Committee member of a Flying Club (or even all of the above) means they can do as they please when it comes to joining a circuit.
Flying in to YLRE yesterday on a 2 mile final I heard a home built called left base RWY22, so he should be out to my left. WRONG! This guy turned base abeam the threshold of the RWY ,turned final over the piano keys, and landed about 2/3 down RWY22.
Deliberately deceptive circuit position calls cause mid-airs. This guy might think he's smart but in reality he's stupid and endangering life.
As I discovered yesterday, some pilots think because they might be a Lawyer or Doctor or Instructor or a Committee member of a Flying Club (or even all of the above) means they can do as they please when it comes to joining a circuit.
Flying in to YLRE yesterday on a 2 mile final I heard a home built called left base RWY22, so he should be out to my left. WRONG! This guy turned base abeam the threshold of the RWY ,turned final over the piano keys, and landed about 2/3 down RWY22.
Deliberately deceptive circuit position calls cause mid-airs. This guy might think he's smart but in reality he's stupid and endangering life.
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cockatoo Australia
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ovation,
I don't think the call was deceptive, it's just that the pilot flew an extremely close base leg. In his/her mind, they were on base when the call was made.
Walrus
I don't think the call was deceptive, it's just that the pilot flew an extremely close base leg. In his/her mind, they were on base when the call was made.
Walrus
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm sure there's a minimum distance from the threshold that you have to be established on final (is it 500 meters?).
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In the Hangar
Posts: 117
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
He is probably a cow cocky that may not know much better - thats how close he flys his circuits on his own strips.
YLRE can be an interesting place to fly in and out of, because you get the RPT guys mixing it with the cockys that only fly into a CTAF once every year to get their periodic done. Throw the odd other lightie (like FTDK) and an RFDS Kingair at the same time and the poor old cow cocky just about craps himself.
There is one guy that comes into town (not YLRE) every year for his annual and he comes up on the twr freq something like this;
"Um gidday fellas, its me and I'm coming in from the west and I'll be there about 10 o'clock."
... and thats about all you hear from him.
So the poor bloke or sheila in the twr scrambles to separate traffic from him.
They might give him instructions to "report joining left base for RWY 15" and his reply is "Yeah righto, I'll just use this one here" and then he lands straight in on 04.
YLRE can be an interesting place to fly in and out of, because you get the RPT guys mixing it with the cockys that only fly into a CTAF once every year to get their periodic done. Throw the odd other lightie (like FTDK) and an RFDS Kingair at the same time and the poor old cow cocky just about craps himself.
There is one guy that comes into town (not YLRE) every year for his annual and he comes up on the twr freq something like this;
"Um gidday fellas, its me and I'm coming in from the west and I'll be there about 10 o'clock."
... and thats about all you hear from him.
So the poor bloke or sheila in the twr scrambles to separate traffic from him.
They might give him instructions to "report joining left base for RWY 15" and his reply is "Yeah righto, I'll just use this one here" and then he lands straight in on 04.
Ovation
Forget the 225 unless you feel your safety was seriously compromised.
There is no value in getting up a head of steam over this sort of thing. It is just a fact of life in places like YLRE. Has been that way for the 30 years that I have been flying into there.
Dodging the b*ggers is all part of aviation in the bush - adds to the satisfaction of having survived another journey.
At YBMA the other day, FTDK on a 5 nm final Rwy 16.
Me: Isa traffic, XXX is on a 5 mile final runway 16, Isa.
Cow Cocky in his 172 at a mid-Rwy holding point: Ah, XXX is it OK for me to just duck off on Rwy 34 ahead of you.
Me: YYY, negative hold your position.
I chatted him while taxying in about wanting to take off in the opposite direction to me while I was on finals. He said he thought I was on finals for 34 (maybe he should have looked out the window - I had the landing lights on!).
I have no doubt that his intention was to take off towards me and do a split-arse turn off the deck!
Dr
Forget the 225 unless you feel your safety was seriously compromised.
There is no value in getting up a head of steam over this sort of thing. It is just a fact of life in places like YLRE. Has been that way for the 30 years that I have been flying into there.
Dodging the b*ggers is all part of aviation in the bush - adds to the satisfaction of having survived another journey.
At YBMA the other day, FTDK on a 5 nm final Rwy 16.
Me: Isa traffic, XXX is on a 5 mile final runway 16, Isa.
Cow Cocky in his 172 at a mid-Rwy holding point: Ah, XXX is it OK for me to just duck off on Rwy 34 ahead of you.
Me: YYY, negative hold your position.
I chatted him while taxying in about wanting to take off in the opposite direction to me while I was on finals. He said he thought I was on finals for 34 (maybe he should have looked out the window - I had the landing lights on!).
I have no doubt that his intention was to take off towards me and do a split-arse turn off the deck!
Dr
It's was interesting to watch a certain crop sprayer's arrival at Swan Hill. It was the closest I've ever seen to a "circling approach" - just a continuous turn from an impossibly close downwind leg that had him on runway heading as his wheels touched.
He was in his chair with feet up and a beer in about two minutes flat.
He was in his chair with feet up and a beer in about two minutes flat.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an aircraft on a 2 mile final has priority over others and you're not supposd to cut in front or overtake, and your circuit position call call should be accurate and truthful.
Straight-in visual approaches: Aircraft fitted with a serviceable VHF air-band radio may conduct a straight in visual approach to land at any non-controlled aerodrome subject to the pilot-in-command determining beforehand the wind direction and runways in use, broadcasting intentions on the CTAF at the start of the approach, completing manoeuvring to establish the aircraft on the final approach path by 5 nm from the landing runway threshold, and giving way to any aircraft flying in the circuit pattern.
Bevan..
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Cockatoo Australia
Posts: 234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My comments were not to say that the other person was entitled to such a close base, only that that sort of approach could have been normal for them and there may have been no intentional deception with the radio call.
Walrus
Walrus
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Perth WA
Posts: 256
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poor airmanship seems to be on the rise again!
Forget about what YOU think may be legal, how about WE just do what is RIGHT by the book and by other users of the airspace!!!
Actualy Atlas there is no such thing as a 225 anymore, now called an ASIR. Same fish different scales!
richo
Forget about what YOU think may be legal, how about WE just do what is RIGHT by the book and by other users of the airspace!!!
Actualy Atlas there is no such thing as a 225 anymore, now called an ASIR. Same fish different scales!
richo
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
Posts: 394
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I fully understand on a straight-in approach I should give way to an aircraft landing off a normal circuit, however at some point on final that has to change to the aircraft that was #1 to land.
Can anyone elaborate just when that point occurs? After the straight in aircraft is 500' AGL and 1.5 M?
This idiot who cut in front of me did not position his aircraft at the normal base position of 45 degrees from the threshold, nor did he announce that his base turn was "early" commencing before abeam the threshold.
No real danger because we saw it all happen, but seriously poor airmanship IMHO (and bad manners).
Can anyone elaborate just when that point occurs? After the straight in aircraft is 500' AGL and 1.5 M?
This idiot who cut in front of me did not position his aircraft at the normal base position of 45 degrees from the threshold, nor did he announce that his base turn was "early" commencing before abeam the threshold.
No real danger because we saw it all happen, but seriously poor airmanship IMHO (and bad manners).
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
.............................even before they re invented the rules & allowed straight in approaches in a CTAF (for which I feel is just to unsafe) for all this type of poor airmanship was happening. Now we are allowed under certain conditions such as radio equipped A/C etc. to wander on in with no flying of at least 3 legs of a standard circuit. It does boil down to airmanship something that as someone else mentioned here is lacking. A safer arrival in these cases would mean to overfly the circuit 500 above circuit pattern like we all used to do & join accordingly therefore minimizing the hazards. I know that time is money in an aircraft but a mid-air means money also, in a whole lot of different ways! There's always an element of risk in our trade & it's a calculated risk that only the PIC can asses.
See & be seen I think the boffins have labelled it!..........feel comfy in the fact that having seen & avoided the for mentioned event that it was handled in a professional mannor by the 'correct' pilot.
As for AG planes?............well don't get me started on those cowboys!......like some truckies.................I was once told by a heavy hauler in response to my statement "you guys think you own the road!"...........he said........nope...........just the black bit !!!!!
Capt Wally..............safer at Flight levels
See & be seen I think the boffins have labelled it!..........feel comfy in the fact that having seen & avoided the for mentioned event that it was handled in a professional mannor by the 'correct' pilot.
As for AG planes?............well don't get me started on those cowboys!......like some truckies.................I was once told by a heavy hauler in response to my statement "you guys think you own the road!"...........he said........nope...........just the black bit !!!!!
Capt Wally..............safer at Flight levels
"even before they re invented the rules & allowed straight in approaches in a CTAF (for which I feel is just to unsafe) "
I gotta disagree!
Straight-in approaches = best thing since sliced bread. Do'em ALL the time!
1) Listen on Area and CTAF frequency.
2) Make appropriate calls on Area and CTAF frequency.
3) Turn all your lights on
4) LOOK OUT THE FRONT WINDOW TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE CIRCUIT AND ON AND AROUND THE RUNWAY.
5) If anything pops up that you don't like the look off - break off the straight-in Appr, rattle upwind on the "Dead" side of the circuit (descend or climb to circuit height as required) and come around for a normal Appr and landing.
6) From short final, tell anyone who gets in your way to "f*ck off", unless safety dictates a go-round!
I cannot see what the problem is!
Some of you need to get out into the real world a bit more.
Dr
PS: Most of the Ag pilots I have come across have been top operators. They have a job to do. Keep you eyes open, work in with them, and let them get on with it.
I gotta disagree!
Straight-in approaches = best thing since sliced bread. Do'em ALL the time!
1) Listen on Area and CTAF frequency.
2) Make appropriate calls on Area and CTAF frequency.
3) Turn all your lights on
4) LOOK OUT THE FRONT WINDOW TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE CIRCUIT AND ON AND AROUND THE RUNWAY.
5) If anything pops up that you don't like the look off - break off the straight-in Appr, rattle upwind on the "Dead" side of the circuit (descend or climb to circuit height as required) and come around for a normal Appr and landing.
6) From short final, tell anyone who gets in your way to "f*ck off", unless safety dictates a go-round!
I cannot see what the problem is!
Some of you need to get out into the real world a bit more.
Dr
PS: Most of the Ag pilots I have come across have been top operators. They have a job to do. Keep you eyes open, work in with them, and let them get on with it.
Straight ins are a normal part of an efficient operation. I conduct them whenever I can. I find sitting out there on a 5-7 mile final gives a good chance to appraise what's going on the circuit and you can still make adjustments to fit in with other traffic if there is any.
The ag blokes out there can teach us all a thing or two about how to manipulate an aircraft through the air.
It's amazing how motivated you can be to streamline your appraoch when you are flying a machine operating at around $1200 / hr
The ag blokes out there can teach us all a thing or two about how to manipulate an aircraft through the air.
It's amazing how motivated you can be to streamline your appraoch when you are flying a machine operating at around $1200 / hr
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Darwin, Australia
Age: 53
Posts: 424
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
3 Posts
FTDK 
- not sure about point 6 though.
...
Ovation -
...
- not sure about point 6 though....
Ovation -
CAR 166 (2) (g) before landing, descend in a straight line starting at least 500 metres from the threshold of the landing runway and at a distance common to the ordinary course of navigation for the aircraft type;
CAR 166 (3) (e) the pilot gives way to any other aircraft established and flying in the circuit pattern at the aerodrome.
You may be able to argue that he broke the rules if he/she was not established on final by 500m from the threshold, but CAR 166 (3) is very specific that to fly a straight in approach you must give way to ALL aircraft in the circuit.
...
Flying three legs of the circuit concentrates more aircraft into a smaller volume of airspace by increasing the amount of time an aircraft spends in that airspace.
Greater traffic density = increased risk of collision.
Greater predictability = decreased risk of collision.
Concise, accurate, appropriate broadcasts = decreased risk of collision.
Greater predictability = decreased risk of collision.
Concise, accurate, appropriate broadcasts = decreased risk of collision.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Alice Springs
Posts: 1,744
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Right!!
Werbil has got it right. The less time you are in the circuit, the safer it is.
Visibility is poor during turns (particularly in a high wing aeroplane), so the less turns you do the safer it is.
Many of our rules are inherited from the military, and the time when there were swarms of tiger moths in the circuit without radios.
Change can be good.
Visibility is poor during turns (particularly in a high wing aeroplane), so the less turns you do the safer it is.
Many of our rules are inherited from the military, and the time when there were swarms of tiger moths in the circuit without radios.
Change can be good.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: QLD, Australia
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I had a good long read of the new rules when they came out a few years ago, and the 2 main points I was able to decipher out of it all were:-
1. Although you need to be established at 5 miles on final, you are not required to make a call AND you do not have right of way.
2. At 3 miles you are required to make a call, you are considered to be in the circuit, AND you now have right of way.
1. Although you need to be established at 5 miles on final, you are not required to make a call AND you do not have right of way.
2. At 3 miles you are required to make a call, you are considered to be in the circuit, AND you now have right of way.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: On the equator
Posts: 1,291
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CAR 166 (2) (g) before landing, descend in a straight line starting at least 500 metres from the threshold of the landing runway and at a distance common to the ordinary course of navigation for the aircraft type;
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,569
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
..........what where all you guys doing before they invented straight in approaches????................at least 3 legs of a curcuit.....................didn't see too may of you lot jumping up & down like you are now saying it's gotta be better...............that's why for a zillion years there where no straight in approaches (visual that is) allowed. too damn dangerous. Sure the RPT boy where allowed to b4 GA at certain AD's but that's because they had RT contact on the ground for first hand info. Change is good but not when it's abussed! See how someone here is motivated by the dollar...............hope I don't meet you in the dollar world curcuit !:-
As for the AG cowboys?, got nothing to do with they could teach us a thing or two about flying, I can't do what an AG plane can do neither can they do what an 8 ton mach 0.8 machine will do, horses for courses, (did you not learn properly in the first place?)...........well obviously most have not been at the controls of 5+ tons when a 'cowboy' decides to drop on in extremely close via a x strip that would have been out of the range of most GA A/C's x-wind capabilities & sail past as if they where King D...!!! Look at the end of the day we all have to work together (obviously) so lets appreciate everyones views here & learn something from them
capt Wally:-)
As for the AG cowboys?, got nothing to do with they could teach us a thing or two about flying, I can't do what an AG plane can do neither can they do what an 8 ton mach 0.8 machine will do, horses for courses, (did you not learn properly in the first place?)...........well obviously most have not been at the controls of 5+ tons when a 'cowboy' decides to drop on in extremely close via a x strip that would have been out of the range of most GA A/C's x-wind capabilities & sail past as if they where King D...!!! Look at the end of the day we all have to work together (obviously) so lets appreciate everyones views here & learn something from them
capt Wally:-)