NZ: ATPL Flight Test
 

Help/Info Required:

Returning to NZ and need to do an ATPL (A) Flight Test.
I have all the NZ subjects and 8000+hours (Heavy Jet blah blah).

Does anyone know where we can do the Flight Test privately?

Not looking for any ad hoc work in NZ at all.....just need to do the check!

Thanks in advance. (PM me if you're worried about "advertising" on Pprune)

PF

G'day mate.

I'm not worried about 'advertising' on PPRuNe, and someone else may find this useful. Doing an ATPL flight test privately is not all that common, and as you will know it has to be done in an aircraft of reasonable complexity and performance.

Air Wanganui is probably your best bet. They've done this sort of thing before using their Piper Mojave.

Do you already have an ICAO ATPL? I'm sure you've exhausted all avenues, but it could actually be easier (and would certainly be cheaper) to do an Aussie ATPL and convert (no flight test, just convert your license, and do the papers).

Perhaps other people have got more options........

Good luck with it all :ok:

Check your PMs

I know of at least one person who used an AirNZ sim- 767 from memory. Was about 4 years ago though but worth checking.

Me too, have done the subjects, looks like I may now need to do the flight test.

Either that or go to Aussie and redo the subjects

Be aware that doing your ATPL flight test in the old mojave will cost you well over $10,000 ! as the flight examiner will require you to have over 10 hours on type, which is fair enough I guess but it goes for a thousand dollars an hour, which would seem a bit excessive for an old chieftain! You'd be better trying to find someone who can do you a sim ride in something you're typed on. Either that or convert your ICAO ATPL to an Australian one, then use the TTMRA agreement to bring it over to an NZ licence.

the TTMRA only allows conversion of licenses. You cannot exchange your subjects in the hope of then getting the australian license. Any flight test in NZ will cos you mega bucks. best idea is to go and do the ATPL course in Mooloolaba. It is a full time course and by all accounts is top notch. It will save you a small fortune, and at the same time having a holiday.

There was some talk in Aussie recently about having to do flight tests for the issue of ATPL licences, you might want to check up on this before going over.

Gravox,
Does that mean that the Aussie licence will then be as good as the NZ/UK/JAA licence rather than the wheatbix packet variety?
:E :E :E :E :} :} :} :}

I've heard of a Kiwi expat coming back from HKG to hire the ANZ B777 SIM and instructor to complete their ATPL.

If the test is done properly to the required standard you should really complete it in an aircraft that you are "properly" current on.

I was fortunate to have completed it as part of my employers training/checking cycle.

My advise to people considering heading overseas is to get the Kiwi ATPL before they leave. If I was doing it all again with regard to the ATPL theory I would take the Aussie/TTRMA option - the sunshine coast operation looks like a good setup, the exams more realistic than the ancient NZ slyabus and also a great opporunity to blaze it up in a "foreign" land.

The only possible draw back about the "back door" option is that some prospective employers may ask/judge as to where & how you achieved the ATPL.

Swamped

gravox, i was assuming the guy has an ATPL already, in which case he can get an australian ATPL fairly easily, certainly a lot easier than an NZ one, and convert that via the TTMRA. As you say, if he's still on a CPL, go and do all the Australian exams at AFT.

I have a full set of AFT notes + law books going cheap as it happens, PM me :-)

Thanks for the info guys.

I have NZ CPL and instrument rating (multi engine) and have completed all the NZ ATPL subjects but have not done a flight test. I also don't have curently have a type rating on anything suitable for a ATPL flight test. I was planning on the flight test being taken care of by a potential future employer....

However now that thats not happening( :mad:), I'm thinking about looking for work overseas and therefore need an ATPL. Looks like its either cough up for the flight test or cough up to go to Aussie and resit all the exams.

Sorry for the resurrection of this post, but looking at current info of who I can do a ATPL flight test with.
Won't have time to write my Aussie ATPL with current work commitments.
No jet or large turboprop time. Just king air 100.
Any help would be appreciated.

I'm in the same boat as you lilflyboy. Currently I'm looking at starting the process to get a b200 recognised for the flight test which seems to just be a paperwork exercise with the Feds. I've noted that flight test and training nz don't seem to have testing officers for the issue of ATPLs. Air Wanganui may be of some help from their experience using the Mojave?
For some reason it seems like a fair bit of an effort just to organise a flight test outside of the airlines

Have you got a quote from CAA with their hourly rate and how long it will take?
That in itself could well be $1000s

I've heard that Air2there can possibly do it with their 200? Waiting to hear back from them about this.
I've emailed CAA and the only response is with all the airline operators and all above 5,700kg aircraft.
No mention of the Mojave or any Kingair types other than a 350 with Hawker Pacific.

If I read the aircraft registry correctly the only B200 is ZK-LRJ at 5710kgs.
Aeromotive Leasing Limited, Hamilton. Which could be leased onwards of course.
The last I heard about the B350 ZK-MMM was that it was de-registered to leave the country for good.

NZ CAA recognised Air Wanganui's Mojave as a ATPL machine because of its complex systems i.e csu props, retractable gear and pressurisation.

I would assume any Kingair variant C90, 100/200/350 would meet the same criteria. The Beech Duke B60? has also been used in the past.

AIRNZ has a Beech 1900D sim in Auckland. Might pay to check with them as a similar type to the Kingair.

S2K

Theres also MYM which is a b200.

I think Helipro brought it into the country and airtothere operate it?

Having been thru this process about 10 years ago, it seems it hasn't changed much in the lack of availability of an appropriate aircraft. The requirements from CAA are 3 fold, it is EITHER over 5700kgs, pressurized or turbine. Note either, not all 3, so this is why the Mojave can be used as it's pressurized. Someone mentioned that you need 10 hours on type, this is correct, and you also need a current NZ Instrument rating, so if yours isn't, then you need to do a currency ride, which is going to cost. Add on top a 1-2 hour type rating as well to that mix. It was possible to do "dead" sectors in the Mojave to reduce the cost, however, as I found, this was a very frustrating exercise as you basically need to sit around waiting for it to be used, mainly to WLG, which is about 1/2 an hour so it takes a fair few sectors to get your 10hours up. At the time Air Wanganui had just acquired their Kingair so they were using that mostly as opposed to the Mojave, as you would, so it took me months of back and forth to Wanganui. Unless they now use the Kingair for ATPL flight tests, I would not recommend this path. I'm not sure of other aircraft, I did contact Vincents in WLG, they seemed receptive but again, this information is old.

One more thing...don't expect the examiner from CAA to be available when you are. I believe there was only one examiner in the country, and it was near impossible to get him booked any time under 6 months prior. This was obviously a major hindrance in getting the flight test done. Don't forget also, the examiner is based in Wellington, so you'll need to pay his costs in getting to where ever you are and home again.

All in, if you can't get it done with the airlines, expect an excessively frustrating, long and expensive path to the flight test....and NZCAA were about as useless as Captain Hook at a gynaecology convention....:E:ugh:

Flight test prerequisites
A candidate for ATPL (A) issue flight test is required by Civil Aviation Rule to;
(a) Hold appropriate current written examination credit(s), and
(b) Present all relevant knowledge deficiency reports; and
(c) Have a certified logbook record of the requisite flight experience, and
(d) Have proof of their identity, and
(e) Hold a current CPL(A) or SCPL(A) or equivalent, and
(f) Hold an instrument rating, and
(g) Hold a current Class 1 Medical Certificate, and
(h) Hold a type rating for the aircraft used on the flight test.

Aircraft and equipment requirements for flight test
The candidate is required to provide a multi-engine aircraft of a MCTOW of at
least 5700 kilograms (or equivalent as approved by the Director) or approved
flight simulator for the flight test. The aircraft or approved flight simulator must
be equipped for, and its operating limitations must not prohibit, flight under IFR
and all other pilot operations required during the test. Required equipment will
include;
(a) Fully functioning dual flight controls, and
(b) Those instruments essential to the manoeuvres planned to be
demonstrated during the flight visible to both pilots without excessive
parallax error, and
(c) At least three-point lap-and-sash harness, and
(d) Intercommunication equipment of an approved type, and
(e) An acceptable means of simulating instrument flight.
The candidate is required to provide adequate and private facilities for briefing
prior to and after the flight test.

ZK-MYM shows as registered at 5670kgs.
Unless it has had a recent mod to increase the MTOW?, or is any B200 on the "or equivalent as approved by the Director" list, like the Mojave is also?

Hi Delta, I can't find the section on the CAA website....surprise...but I remember it as one of 3 requirements, 5600kgs, Turbine or pressurized...that's how the Mojave makes it in, as it's only pressurized.

I had an elderly gentleman, he was a gentleman and I won't name names....as my examiner on my flight test and we had been single engine since the start of the VOR approach and missed approach into Palmy, went SE to the NDB at Wanganui, did a hold there and then into the NDB approach in deteriorating weather conditions and strengthening winds. At about 800 feet on final approach into Wanganui, the examiner had clearly forgotten that we were SE and he did the instructor trick of putting a piece of A4 paper between the throttles and the mixtures so I couldn't see which engine he was going to "fail"....it took me a moment to realize what was going on and I shouted out "we're already single engine!!" and grabbed every lever I could and firewalled them! That was an exciting moment.....:E But ever the examiner, as we climbed away, he apologized and then promptly failed an engine again and I had to circle to land SE!;) All in, a pretty thorough test!:ok:

The pool of testing officers for ATPL issue is limited. The airlines have them for in-house work (you can rent an airline's sim and then rent the examiner as well) or the CAA. Based on the avenue you're pursuing, it will have to be the CAA.

Delta T. Thanks for your concerns but I meet all the above requirements that you listed bar having an approved machine (in which I'm currently looking into a having a 200 approved) and sourcing a CAA examiner

I know a guy who did his ATPL flight test in the Kingair sim in Melbourne with a CAA guy and got his ticket, it can be done.

Yeah I was also considering flying an examiner over.

There is no 10hr requirement. I checked that with CAA and all they said was a rating on type.

Still waiting on hearing about aircraft that are under 5,700kg such as the Mojave....

That's probably an excellent option guys, and much cheaper than the 10hours on type, which is hard to get and not to mention the hotel plus flights or gas getting to Wanganui. The CAA examiner who did my flight test said he could have done my flight test in the CRJ sim in Aussie, if I'd paid for his flights and hotel. However CRJs aren't on the NZ register and this was contrary to what the CAA told me in correspondence, that it had to be a type registered in NZ...:ugh: I still don't know but the flight examiner was adamant and he has been around since the Wright brothers!:E

Ok, recall that the old proverb is that CAA stands for Campaign Against Aviation.
And remember from your training long ago:
AC61.10
For a piston multi-engine (non centreline-thrust) aeroplane not exceeding 5700kg MCTOW Initial issue - 5 hours; subsequent types - 1 hour.
This same document has for Helicopters over 5700Kgs 10hrs required.
However has nothing stated for Multi Engine Aeroplanes over 5700kgs in this document, but you can see where I am going, most likely the requirement is for complex aircraft, first type, not done in a simulator...10hrs. -I am still looking.

Air Wanganui have a nice King Air c90 to do the ATPL test in.(ZK-MKG) Brenton Knight is the examiner.

Just to clear up one point, you cannot do an ATPL flight test with an examiner other than one from CAA unless you work for a company that has an approved examiner and ATPL flight testing on their 119 certificate.
As a flight test NZ examiner with ATPL testing approval I cannot do the test.
Not sure why this is but makes to tough for anyone who does not work for an airline.
We have tried to work with CAA on this one but no luck so far.

Then they wonder why everyone goes to Aussie does it over there then changes the licence via the TTMRA!

VH-VIN can you clear up the 10hr requirement?
I've stopped looking, can't find anything on it for fixed wing.

I read a science article recently that had in it, incompetent people cannot recognise their own stupidity and also the intelligence of others.

From the fingers of Bill MacGregor at CAA NZ via email.

I asked him directly "There is a rumour that we must have 10hrs on the aircraft before the flight test. Is this true?"

His response was "There are no specified hours on type but you do require a type rating on the type used for the test"


Still no word on aircraft under 5,700kgs that we can use. A kingair 90 would be great...

CTC Hamilton have a Kingair B200 FNPTII Sim, you can but ask if you can hire it.

Re the 10hrs, I think I have found it, it is if you are acting as a crew member for a Company, and have to receive 10hrs Instruction on type.
Part 125.557 d(3). So not applicable.

Part 125/121 training V Part 141 training
 

If the organisation is a Part 141 then the ten hours may not apply, but if you are completing a type rating for something such as a B737 or A320 the type conversion going to greater than 10 hours anyway.

However if the operation is able to do ATPL issues under its part 119 exposition as a part 125 or 121 operation and do not hold a part 141 then you would have to follow the ten hour requirement, because you would have to become an "employee' temporarily to complete the training as they cannot sell the training to an external.

Part 141 = you can sell training externally.
Part 135/125/121 = you can train your own people only.

So it is likely that Air2There may not have Part 141 for training, I don't know what their approval status is.

Has anyone had an luck since April in successfully getting their NZ ATPL?

Is there any scope to change the rule to allow licensed examiners to carry out tests on individuals?

At the moment the only options seems to be:

*Pay for rating with Air Wanganui and use their Mojave with a CAA examiner.
*Pay for rating (if not already rated) on an available King Air (250?) in NZ and carry out flight test with CAA examiner.
*Fly a CAA examiner over to aussie and do in a Sim (already rated or initial typed)

Is this seriously the only options available to individuals in NZ at the moment? :ugh:

Yep. Does seem strange and severely limiting to those not employed by Air NZ group, Air Chat's, Airwork and a couple of others I guess. Strange rule :ugh:

ZK-MKG (Air Wanganui) has been and still can be used for ATPL flight tests..I know of 2 people, 1 being a current pilot with Air Wanganui who have done their ATPL flight test in the c90

If you are rated on any of the aircraft that Air NZ fly, you can hire the sim from them too.
Does it have to be a full motion sim for the test?

Having an ATPL licence is not the godsend you think it is.
Just because you might not have one you think that obtaining that holy grail will make all the difference to your employability. The reality is similar to a 200hr CPL going for a MEIR, unless you are rated on a popular type and ready for Captaincy it really is not the magic ticket.
I wouldn't bother spending the extra cash.

Don't bank on NZ CAA recognising the Aus ATPL under the TTMRA either. I have had an Aus ATP since Nov '04 & straight away applied and was issued a NZ ATP licence.
No I have just started arguing with them as they are back-tracking on why i was issued a kiwi ATP in the first place bear in mind I have had this licence for 10 freakin years & have flown for 4 years in New Zealand on it.
Head scratching stuff from the pin heads in Featherstone St.

what do you mean by back tracking? is it being revoked? was it issued in error?