Aerobatics Endorsement
 

I am thinking that in my next stae of flying I would like to get my aerobatics endorsement. I have noticed (while researching) that you can obtain this by training in all different types of aircraft. I am a little tight on money, and was wondering if the plane you train in actually makes a difference with this endorsement, and if so what is the best plane?
Thanks
TMP

Try a C152 Aerobat!
 

Why not try a C152 Aerobat. Most pilots have spent time on the 152 and it is easy to fly and very forgiving. Also cheap to hire by the hour.

It depends on what you want to do though. If you go for a Citabria you get tail wheel experience (and endorsement) as part of the deal. A bit more challenging to fly though.

I looked the Tiger Moth but too costly to fly with instruction.

Couple of good Melbourne options.
1. Have a search for Tooradin Airport, Chris Burns is instructing there, or
2. Royal Vic at MB, see David Pilkington.

You should get a good grounding from either of those two guys in aeros. IMHO, like many facets in this industry there are many willing to accept money for the lessons, but a small number who will give you true value for the money spent.
Do the Tailwheel endo with it, it will teach you a fair bit on aircraft handling.
Good luck with the aeros, highly recommended

I am more Central Vic. I think Ballarat do aerobatics, but in a YAK, which i would presume would be quite expensive? I am definately interested in doing it in a tailwheel.
Is there much theory to accompany the endorsement? If so, any books you could recommend?
Thanks
TMP

Telemaphone,

No real theory, however any good instructor is probably going to quiz you on stall, Vne and entry speeds to each manouvere along with errors and what happens if it all goes wrong in a given manouvere.

As to the type, 152 is a great little plane, but the yoke and the throttle controls don't lent themselves to aeros in a graceful way, that said you'll be a past master at energy management if you do it in a 152 (not an easy sequence a/c), my preference would be a tailwheel with a stick. - more natural if that makes sense ?

Books, there are many , however you can't go wrong with :

Geza Szurovy and Mike Goulians' Basic Aerobatics,
ISBN 0-07-0629226-9
rrp Approx 40-50 aud.

cheers

7g

I like to support local products first: Dave Robson's book, Aerobatics: Principles and Practice A good read is "Aerobatics" by Neil Williams - an oldie but a classic. The next book to buy, if you're getting into competitions, is Better Aerobatics by Alan Cassidy

CASA's draft Manual of Standards identifies the knowledge requirements, for example:
- positive & negative g limits
- rolling g limits
- engine limitations
- phyiological effects eg G-LOC
- symptoms of an aircraft overstress
- Va, Vne & Vno
- minimum altitude

Have a look at what the MOS says about spinning - you'll need to understand the basics of spinning and reasons for the recovery actions.

I belive that there is a Citabria available at Sheparton, not sure who the instructor is. Give Pip Borrman a cal, I'm sure that he'd be happy to advise you.

I have been looking at the Citabria (few google searches) and it looks like a nice aircraft. I also found the Chipmunk and was wondering what people's opinion on that is?!
What would you say would be the number of hours needed to getthis endorsement (would be my first time in a tail dragger too)? Are their any extra costs ontop of the dual aircraft hire if you are doing aerobatics?
Thanks Again
TMP

Aeros
 

Dude,

A basic aeros endorsement should be around 6 hours dual (If you're combining that with a taildragger it may be a few more). There should be no additional costs, apart from the theory book (I used Dave Robsons).

I did mine in a C152, which (as has been mentioned) gives you a very good understanding of conservation of energy.

I posted on this back in January:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=158532

Cheers,

and ENJOY!

DIVOSH

Chipmunky is a bit demanding and and if you have grown up on spam cans would prolly scare you silly.
Go for the CitaBRA and you get a little docile tailwheel exposure at the same time.

I've done a bit with DjPil, and will continue once my ears settle down.

Downside: Nystagamus which I have to work through.

Upside: Citabria is a joy to fly with DjP as an instructor. Even when it is prodded it is just a lovely aeroplane!

Just teach yourself, that's what I did. None of it's all that hard. :rolleyes:


Aileron Roll:

Just pull the nose up and...... RRRROOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLL....!!!

Then stop.


Loop

Begin in the straight and level but make sure you're going really fast. Close your eyes and pull the stick back really hard.

You will feel a little heavy. Count to ten, then release back-stick and open your eyes.

If the scene looks exactly like it did when you closed them, you did it right - well done!

If your view is of someone's swimming pool rapidly getting larger, you screwed it. Close your eyes and start pulling again. Hard.

Consider saying something kool on the R/T like, "Timberrrrrr......!!"



There, I just saved you 100s of dollars!

You're right, scrubed, its not all that hard. There are a few good books which seem to be written for self-learners - take them in the cockpit with you and follow the detailed instructions. Unlike Australia, there are some countries where spinning and aerobatic endorsements are not required and it is quite legal to self-learn. It has worked for many people. You should consider the accident history too and assess the risks. One risk mitigation action is to wear (and have a plan to use) a parachute. Then find an aeroplane.
I've lost too many friends to recommend that, however. Consider a spinning and aerobatic endorsement as a licence to go out by yourself afterwards and really learn aerobatics safely.
TeleMaPhone, I trust that you're also looking elsewhere on the net for information.

:p :p So..yer rock up to a flying school with a book on aerobatics and draggin a parachute , and ask if you can hire a plane????

Yeh spose that would work.
djpil...er.. curious as to how many friends you have lost?

So scrubed you taught yourself? So to get that final polish on a sequence of aeros do you just polish yourself?

Sounds like it.;)

Pitts
 

Why not go all out and jump into a Pitts S2A when you've done your initial aeros endorsement.

This thing will tweak the ears of anyone!!

May I reccomend the Robin R2160 (Alpha 160A) for training. There are a few around in oz and are a fantastic aerobatic trainer. I did my Aeros rating in a 152 and then later convirted to a R2160 and would never go back. 152 Just doesn't cut it for me any more.

aeros in a 152 are fine if you don't mind the climb back to altitude - it's a bit like riding a 125cc race bike (ironically has the same numbers....) on a big race track -you've got to use momentum all the time. they do all you need for a beginner aero pilot, and are docile enough to get you into trouble, but help you out of it when you do . i would be reluctant to self teach spinning, as if you stuff it up, chances are you'll fall on your back into a spin, and being confident in the spin (when doing aeros) is probably the biggest thing to keeping you in the blue stuff. and from experience, losing it into a spin at the top of a slow barrel roll with 2300rpm on the clock, you wanna be confident getting it under control in the spin!

NZDP - there are no Robins in this part of the world.

TeleMaphone said that he was "little tight on money" so that limits the options. A tailwheel endorsement will add significant $ so probably leaves the Cessna Aerobat - as has been mentioned - a great trainer. That narrows the choice of books down too.
The Basic Aerobatic Manual by Bill Kershner.

Chris Burns
 

I have flown with a number of very good aeros pilots over the years. I insist you go to every effort to fly with Chris Burns - not only one of the best aero's pilots and teachers in the country but he is a top bloke.

Flying aeros is not all about the aircraft and with a bloke like Chris he can teach you anything in a aircraft capable of reasonable performance. He is also the kind of bloke who won't waste your time and money - an that is why he isn't liked among the sausage factories{GFS}, ie. because he is too good. Even if you get an aircraft from somewhere or someone I'm sure they will let Chris teach you in it - if they know him and his excellent reputation.

If your out there Chris - Thanks mate - I hope all is still going well and your still putting together your guitars. Safe Flying old mate.

Only with the best
 

Scrubed, If you don't die, can you autogragh my "crash comic" when your story of "...and there I was, upside down and spinning, all I was doing was a stall turn!" ends up in it?

TeleMaPhone, save some cash and do it right , with quality instructor and in something built for the job.

C152 Aerobats just don't cut it. The others will bang about how they teach you "Energy management etc, etc.", but you will WASTE a lot time climbing before you even start the actual lesson.

Go and find Instructors that are expierenced and current.
Some of the "sausage factory" instructors (GFS - but not Chris Burns) are lucky to have 10 hours of aero time on the Decafs before they start training chums like you good self. Some of them are noticably scared about teaching things like loops according to an ex student.

Here are a few that I know of. Kevin Peat, don't if he is still instructing but ask at Peter Bini's.
Phil Unicomb at Action Aerobatics in Maitland NSW
Chris Burns as perviously mentioned by PennyBenjamin
Darren Williams at Ballarat. Top bloke and good teacher He flys the YAK at BLT, 3 minutes from take off to 4500 agl. What does the aerobat do that in?
David Pilkington at MB, one of the most Experienced around, used to be factory test pilot on the Pitts.

Good Hunting, Fiesty Ferret (could'nt get WILD WEASEL)

tinpis - more than one, and one is too many - message me if you really want an answer - the point I was trying to make was that there are enough risks without trying to teach yourself aerobatics. Scrubed didn't really mean it though, did he?

Feisty (or should I call you WILD) - I agree with all of the above but not what you stated next True, you do waste time climbing so it takes longer. In my opinion, everyone should do a tailwheel endorsement - but if TeleMaPhone chooses to stick to trikes then the Cessna is indeed a good choice. I'd be happy to take you through the Sportsman sequence in one. I admit to be even happier in one of the other types mentioned but thats not the subject of the debate.
Thanks for your other comments.

Weather in Melbourne this weekend seems ideal for sitting in the hangar talking about aerobatics, or continuing this debate.

To add to Fiesty's list of instructors:
Dick Gower at Coldstream , Laurie Byrnes at MFS and Graeme Hodges at Civil . Laurie uses a Decathlon while Dick and Graeme fly Cessnas.

Aerobatics also done at Tristar and Tyabb but I don't know the instructors and heard no feedback on their training. Both have Cessnas.

The Aerobatic Club has their monthly practice day this Sunday but it doesn't look promising due to the weather.

Off now - to MB to sit in the hangar and talk aerobatics.

Sure there are. Around 19 in Oz at the moment with more on the way. Sydney Aerobatic school currently opperate a fleet of 6 as their primary aerobatic trainer. Also, we are manufacturing them over here in hamilton,- is accross the ditch not in your part of the world ? :p

NZDP, I think he meant around Melbourne. A bit far to drive to Sydney or indeed "across the ditch" for an endorsement

The register shows 9 Robin 2160's in Australia. RVAC in Melbourne is looking at getting some Alphas (see the newsletters on their website) so I'm looking forward to them rolling off the NZ production line. From the manufacturer's website, it seems that production has not yet commenced.

I don't doubt you, Fiesty, but the same situation applies to other aspects of flying training too. I've known instructors to be scared of demonstrating a wing drop at the stall. Getting off topic here but I see that the draft MOS and the new instructor's guide talks about stalling from a turn, not sure how many students get that exercise.
Regardless of experience, the real question is whether the instructor is competent (we're only talking a basic aerobatic course here at this time) and can teach the appropriate knowledge and skills then judge when the student is safe to fly aerobatics solo. I agree with the recommendation to seek out an experienced instructor, who you would expect to meet those criteria (that recommendation applies to everything, not just aerobatics).

Aeros
 

TeleMaPhone - U R crazy! If you think there's no theory in Aero's you are HORRIBLY mistaken and may one day join many others who probably thought that before they tried to spin their aircraft to 100ft.

Look at the Citabria that crashed in SA a couple of months back. A couple of small changes, like passenger and a downwind component were enough to make him come unstuck and crash and burn.

Chris Burns is temporarily out of action, but will be back on deck shortly. He is no doubt your best option around Melbourne. He had been recently teaching at Tooradin in the Decatlhlon - VH-BWM. He certainly can put that aircraft through its' paces. There's a picture of it on their web-site. www.tooradinflyingschool.com.au

Other than that, a great coach would be Paul Andronicue in Melbourne. He flies a Laser and rivals Pip Boorman in airshow type displays. PM me if you want his details.

Reading over some of these posts leads to another thought of advice I often give to people seeking flying training, not just aerobatics:
Choose an instructor that you can get on with. The right instructor for the individual is a factor as important as the choice of aircraft type. And, no, he's not going to use my airplane.

On the other hand, most instructors don't have the luxury of being able to tell students to go and find some-one else but more should - see this article at Avweb.
Any one of those is not good for your health in aerobatics.

i saw on the web that overseas there is a Boeing 737 for hire , for aerobatics! its only $97.00 AUD per hour.! cheap. you can do everything in it, spin's spiral dives, wingovers, barrel roll, some big 15degree banks! wow, everything .. look it up under "737 aeros" go for it mate.!

VMC4ME

WHAT THE !!!!!!

CAP10B's seem pretty good, and they are a tail wheel!!

The CAP 10B is nice, Dave Robson swears by them. A CAP 10C would be even nicer. Doesn't go as well as a Laser but we're still discussing basic training here. Unfortunately, no CAP's in Victoria either.

they havea nice cap 10b at ypjt.....

i have been eyeing it off for a while...may be a good way to get tail wheel in the bible aswell....

Go for it 4SPOOLED. You never know, you could rival Paul A before long.

Just saw this online, from info in another forum:
Has anyone seen that instant pull inverted?

Action: http://www.aerobatics.com.au/ or maybe ACST http://www.acst.com.au/

So "BUCK ROGERS" you know otherwise? you think Pip is better than everyone else? Don't go catching Chris Burns disease. Pip's show is a lot of smoke and mirrors and is too expensive for most airshows now, which is why Paul gets invited to them all now days.

With regards to R2160's in Australia, Yes there is a few of them, but the best one stands out in YPJT where do the aero's with Joy, then make a deal with the yank and you'll also be taught on how to do arrester cable landing practices as well?????

Pip is up there with the best, in my opinion. Very few others in the country could match his ability as an airshow aerobatic pilot. Pay your money and take your pick. I'd probably even get a few gigs if I did it for free.

PS: what disease is this?

It's a fast spreading disease that aerobatic pilots get. It's a disease that causes them to bitch with each other frequently about who gave who the low level endorsement and who actually has a ground level endorsement and who dobbed in who for doing aeros illegally, etc, etc, it's soooooo damn painful when people are infected with "aerobatic-envy" disease.

There are other airshow performers out there who are willing to do it for far less and who can put on a show. A fellow David Kilpatric (hope I've got his name right) did a nice stolen aircraft routine in his 2 seater Pitts recently at an airshow.

People, particularly airshow regulars get sick of seeing the same guys there.