QF Psychometric Testing
 

Can someone out there please explain to me why the QF Psychometric test is so important?

Did the original Impulse Pilots now Jetstar Pilots have to pass the Psychometric test before QF swallowed them up?

Did the Australian Airlines Pilots pass the QF Psychometric testing before QF Swallowed them up?

I am sure this didn't occur.

I am also certain that in the above two Pilot groups, that is ex Australian and ex Impulse, there are Pilots that have not passed the Psycometric Test.
Does this make them a poor Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.

At the moment an interested Pilot can complete a course that will 80% guarantee they will pass this test.
Does this make them a bad Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.

VirginBlue Pilots as far as I am aware don't have to pass any Psychometric testing. Does this make them a poor Pilot? I am sure it doesn't.

Is flying a Jet aeroplane that much harder than flying a Turbo Prop aircraft? No it is not. Many people I know who have missed out on the QF Psycho. test have gone on to fly with Virgin, Cathay, Ansett in the past, Dragonair, Emirates and several other carriers around the World.

As QF Regional Pilot I have history with the Company and have climbed the ladder to my current position. I received a rejection letter yesterday via email to say that I was unsuccessful at the application stage. So I hear, Jetstar take into account any previous Psycho. test to cull applicants. There has also been a number of other people rejected because of this process.

QF and Jetstar you both need to update your application process and bring it into the 21st century. Both of you are missing out on good quality people/Pilots.

Well said that man!

Unfortunately, this is just another way to cull the large number of applicants to a more manageable side.

Along with the HSC requirement, having your ATPL subjects, minimum hours, etc...

Whilst these are not prerequisites to being a good pilot, they do test ones determination and ability to equip themselves effectively. Those who want it bad enough will succeed.

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

Well a rejection letter is never easy to take, whatever the reason.

But be reassured: yes there's a big difference between jets and turbo-props. JETS ARE MUCH EASIER! And the simulator is an ideal place (and far more accurate place) to find out how a pilot works as a crew member and potential commander. I'd back actual practice vs. psych testing any day.

It has always seemed weird to me that Qantas (and AIPA) are happy to reap the rewards of selling seats on any aircraft with the White Rat on the tail, implicitly telling the punters that the whole thing has the QF seal of approval....but in fact there's an apartheid system operating as far as the pilots go with "separate development" being the ongoing order of the day.

Do QF really want to explain to the SLF that the Captain who flew them on their Dash 8 isn't really Qantas material?

I can't recall total numbers etc but my recollection is that TAA incorporated pretty much all of the ex-AQ pilots without too many problems. I might be wrong of course, but giving the ex DC-3 people a shot at it was alt least humane. Of course that was in a more enlightened time under real airline management.

:hmm: How many weeks/months we allow for this in a EASY TO FLY JET sim?

Psychometrics are the latest fad in recruiting. You can bet that QF have paid somebody a heap of cash to do the testing. Its a great way to sift a large quantity of applicants.

Only one slight teensy weensy ickle problem or two. First the tests can be learned, and anyone who knows what an employer is looking for and how the tests are constructed, can mimic the necessary traits to pass. We used to be taught how to do this at MBA school.

Aptitude testing BTW is perfectly OK, however I would have thought that if you had the necessary licences and experience that would not be an issue.

However the real problem is that personality is not stable over time. Differences are measurable in two years. hence the gregarious, tenacious problem solver can become a know it all SOB in two years.

Furthermore, the personality tests contain traps to supposedly calculate a "lie score". However even the reliability of this is suspect. For example, you can make an argument that an applicant prepared to lie is highly motivated and therefore employable.

And of course the final problem with the "personality" aspect of these tests:- There is to my knowledge no peer reviewed research that shows that there is any correlation whatsoever between personality test scores and job performance, either short term or long term. If there was, then American companies would not be losing discrimination cases over promotions supposedly based on "pyschometric test results".

Obvious question : How many Jewish or non Anglo Saxon pilots does Qantas have? If the answer is zero, go figure.

Translation: Do you really want to work for a company that believes this bull****?

Do your course by all means, but do it under a false name just in case.

Qantas the equal opportunity company!!!!! What a crock of s.#t.

Psychometric testing is a product invented by psychologists, mainly to justify their existance and created a need for, u guessed it, psycholgists. Some will even admit it.

I recall reading a study by the US military, I think it waas the US Marines, the did a study where they used the best psychometric screening tools to select 50 perfect candidates and trained them in a task. They also selected another group of 50 candidates, at random and applied the same training to them.

The end result was that there was almost no difference in the outcome. Both groups performed to the same standard in the required task.

It boils down to psychologists wanting to quantify the un-quantifyable. A human cant be broken down into a series of stats and numberss.

True, and we all know about some of those "rocket surgeons" they have hired in the passed.:E

This probably won't appease Tofasttofly who seems rather upset, and I guess understandably so, with having received the dreaded "Thanks, but no thanks" letter. However, some others may find the following of some minor interest. It appeared in a mainline newsletter late last year.

Why are experienced pilots not given the chance to show their practical abilities in the simulator and interview simply because they cannot pass an "airy-fairy" psychometric test?

The competencies assessed by the psychometric test are, in fact, very practical and very specific to the role of a Qantas pilot. They include such things as decision-making, communicating, teamwork, spatial orientation, systems operating, situational awareness and analytical and reasoning abilities.
The sim ride and panel interview are highly valuable tools but they have their limitations and do not necessarily paint the full picture on all of the relevant competencies. A pilot who does not demonstrate the required standard in the psychometric test therefore represents an unacceptable level of doubt in a highly competitive process.
The sim and interview assessments require a significant outlay of money, time and effort by both Qantas and the candidate. It would be irresponsible to expend these resources where the psychometric result has raised a significant doubt about the candidate's abilities. However, if the candidate has a good resume and work history we have the option of offering a repeat attempt at the psychometric test to allow for the effects of an "off" day, unfamiliarity with the test format etc.

Anyway, that's the official line of QF recruiting, for what it's worth. Some of you won't be at all sympathetic, but that's your right.

For those of you yet to embark on the weird and wonderful journey of the QF recruitment process, a word of warning - you may be unsuccessful. You too may fail the psychometric test. And whether you agree with psychometric testing or not, QF use it in their recruiting process. So come to grips with that fact now, prepare yourself as completely as you possibly can, and give it your very best shot. And just because you have an Aus passport/CPL/ATPL, you do not have a birth right to a job with QF mainline. It's their train set afterall..............


Tofasttofly - have you called recruiting? What did they say?

ur2 - just exactly what is a 'rocket surgeon'??

Yeh ..how many full blooded aboriginal captains does kwantas have ?.....and why not?

"teamwork, systems"

I dont remember that being included in the Stage 2 testing?

If they wanted to cull people, why not just raise their minimum requirements?

OK.

So the first part of the test is co-ordination. I think that with around 1500 hours flying, you will have gained some co-ordination. This 'airy-fairy' psych test failed to see a lack of co-ordination in some applicants I know of. People that actually failed the test, but got through cause they knew someone. One particular person was so clumsy, that she/he used to trip over herself/himself all the time. Great commander potential. He/she was also a very poor pilot.

Now what comes next, Englush testing. Well, I think anybody that can pass those intrinsic CASA exams bloody well passes an English exam as well.

Maths, OK. might be something here. But seriously not to the extent that they impose. Lets not go overboard guys. Whats an FMC for anyways??

Cubes?? What the hell does that have to do with flying straight and level. This should be used for Military ops more likely, or sending a monkey into space.

The rest is pretty fair. Psych is abit of bull too. The questions are too broad and could be misinterperated for too many situations.

Thats cuts down a 5 1/2 hour test to down to 2. Half the price perhaps.

All it comes down to these days is, he who has most money wins. If I had 800 dollars to throw away on books and tutoring, will I pass?

Please tell me who else makes you pay for an interview besides the Qantas group??

And they still need a merger to survive...Maybe they need a psych on their own management team. Ohhh sorry, that product was not tested on animals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:\

Can someone please send this thread to Geoff D, Chris M, Alan J and Chris M's counterpart in Jetstar.

I know at the end of the day it is QF's train set and they can play any way they so choose.

Twelve months prior to the QF takeover of Impulse, their Pilots where flying B1900s. What testing did these guys pass to fly a Jet aeroplane owned by Qantas?

Don't you think QF might finally take care of their Dash 8 Pilots? We are human and have desires and dreams too. Over the years there has been so many rumours about how certain people in power how they have rorted the system to get a friend or family member in. Why can't professional courtesy prevail here and give us a fair go...

At the end of the day when Australian Airlines was taken over by QF the Dash 8 pilots came in the package. No consideration for our future ever occured. In recent years the Dash 8 ranks have been loosing so many well qualified Pilots to other Airlines. 90 Pilot lost in 18 months.

For that matter Tin, how many full blooded aboriginals do they employ period?

I reckon I can guess....

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

Woomera et al...

Anyone know where the "QF Deep Throat HR" (or something like that) thread went?

That was just starting to get interesting!!!

TL

Sunfish, how 'recent' is a 'latest fad'. QF have been doing a psych test on wannabe's since at least 1989!! That's sixteen years ago now! It's hung around an awful long time for a fad.

It'd be interesting to hear from some of the other QF drivers about when they remember doing thier tests. Mine was '90 but I know a bunch of guys did them in '89. Any earlier than that?

(Not saying that I agree with it, just pointing out how long QF have been standing by it).

Anyone know what the pass rate for stage 2 is?

"They include such things as decision-making, communicating, teamwork, spatial orientation, systems operating, situational awareness and analytical and reasoning abilities. "

These are very nice things to measure because they are aptitudes and no one can argue with that.

However, what else is QF testing?

Keg, this stuff has been around since at least the second world war. I'm sure there is a lot of well researched evidence regarding aptitudes and pilot performance.

However the question remains" How many Jewish and non anglo - saxon pilots does QF have?

maybe it should be; "how many apply?"

I was talking to a psychologist recently, who have been involved extensively in psychometric testing (not at QF). He thought it wasn't worth the paper/computer it's done on, and it makes no difference to the outcome. I believe him.
I asked another psychologist and she thought it was a load of rubbish too.

So, if the profession that developed it thinks it is rubbish, it probably is. It's not in their interest to bash it, is it.

It was reputed for many years Sunfish that Catholics were persona non grata. Sons of C of E professional or public service types was the prevailing demograph. Probably not a long bow to draw that FMs had a strong presence at different levels of the company.

At AN it was said that you had to live in Essendon, barrack for Essendon and have a funny handshake to get on. Never noticed anything unusual myself.

Interesting thing would be what happens if someone challenges their rejection in court. Its happened in the U.S. and while the "aptitude" bit is easily upheld, the "personality" bit has always been thrown out.

There is no research that says you have to have the right "personality" to do a job, provided you are obviously not an out and out fruitcake.

Most of the personality tests are actually designed as diagnostic tools for mentally sick people, NOT as selection tools for sane people presenting to recruiters.

Yes that would be something.

“Hey wawa...........takeoff”

“Aboriginal 421 line-up runway 16 and confirm eight zero zero POB”

“Yo..........family”

“Aboriginal 421 turn right heading 200 climb to fl140......if able, runway 16 cleared for takeoff”

“Takeoff........Yo”

If only :}

Tinpis and HH - the lowest common denominator always goes for the racist issue for whatever reason.
Why dont you complain the fact that Cathay Pacific has predominantly expat pilots as do airlines such as Singapore.
What about Alaskan Airlines.......how many full blooded Alaskans there guys?
The Japanese employ many non Japanese pilots as do the Arab airlines.
Wanna go at them as well???

I suppose you two are backing affirmative action type employment such as in the US where minorities were employed and placed into senior positions on purpose and at everyone elses expense whilst in many cases not being qualified for the applicable position?
This led to pandemonium in their public service where unqualified people cost their economy billions and led to even more hatred of minorities.

With regard to full blooded Aboriginals, if any were to apply, met minimum qualifications, jumped thru the testing hoops like anybody else and presented themselves well at the interview then they would be hired - pure and simple and not just because they are indigenous.

I suppose you will start whinging about Australians going offshore and working as expat pilots next at the expense of other races !

Mr Dreaming,

Please do not confuse an observation with a racist statement, perhaps I should go on to say that I have never actually met a full blooded pilot period. In fact I have only ever met one aboriginal pilot at all. Despite the fact that should any Indigenous Australian choose to pursue a career as a pilot, they may be inline for some serious subsidies...

Now back to my other point, how many full blooded Indigenous Autralians work at the Big Q (kneels down in reverence) at all?

I find it interesting that the people who tend to shout loudest about racism are the ones who know least about it, get out there and have a good look around my good man, whilst not a government policy, apharteid is alive and well in Australia.

If you want to do something about it, you need to recognise first that it exists, where it exists, try to understand it, only then will you be able to do something about.

By the way, your name in itself is a slur on aboriginal people. Perhaps that could be your first step...

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

HH,
dont worry about óle Beer Can, he is still cranky over the descent speeds thread.
How is that apology coming Beer Can Man? Man enough yet?

bbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzz210below5inGzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Dearest Mr Hughes,

To even suggest that my love of a beer after a long days/nights work is a slur on our indigenous citizens reaks of racism on your account !
How can my user name be a racial slur because I long for a coldie?????

HH - you talk about "full blooded" aboriginals.
I deem this a racial slur on those that are mixed race and an insult to all those others that are part aboriginal.
See where this is all going HH...........nowhere fast !!!!
Me thinks you are jumping on that bandwagon that you so easily complain about.

Apartheid you say???????

I know of 3 girls that are QF hosties that are aboriginal - full blooded if you want to use that expression.
I also know a few engineers of the same or similar extraction and quite a few ground staff also Howard.

You sound like those idiots in the USA that pushed affirmative action Howard - and see where that one panned out.

MR Buzzy - rumours around VB is that you are actually an FO.
Any truth ??
And what's with the stupid bbbbzzzzzzz crap at the end of your entries???

Yer not aloud rashul in here

norty


mack..mack..

Sunfish, why are you playing a rascist line now? For your information, I personally know of two pilots of the Jewish faith and one part aboriginal. In the latest Qantas News there is a picture with around fifty aboriginal and Torres Straight Islanders that are all employee's of Qantas. Go figure.
In fact Sunfish, you're really starting to get up my nose with your anti Qantas postings and "know all about business" rantings. This posting about race I find offensive. From what I can gather you don't even work as a pilot and the only pilots licence that you possess is a private one. So what exactly are you doing on this forum then?

Yes you may indeed be correct, but luckily for me, I can at least recognise any racist tendencies on my part.

That is exactly my point that you seem to so eloquently evade, disproportional representation.

Yes, take a look around central/northern Ausralia, segregated bars etc...

Once again you have me all wrong, I would'nt be so presumptuous or stupid to say I have the answers, I merely recognise that it exists. All I can do is make a stand and clean up my own act. The rest is up to far more powerful and intelligent people than myself!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

PS: I humbly apologise if your name is merely a reflection on your penchant for beer, I suspect however that it is not.;)

Thank you Mr. Boeing for your advice. It therefore appears that Qantas is not using its psychometric testing for discrimination which is why I asked the question in the first place.

The reason my question was relevent is that psychometric testing has been used in the past in a number of large U.S. organisations for covert discrimination. The courts have apparently put a stop to this practice.

Sounds to me like you're back-pedalling Mr Hughes.
Anything to do with so called "racism" is a poison chalice.

Besides Mr Hughes, why dont you go to the media and politicians about these so called segregated bars, name them publicly and have them closed down I wonder.
Maybe you just dont care that much because you tout the fact that apartheid is rife in Oz but dont want to do anything about it as I suggested.

Just remember that states such as Victoria ( not NSW fortunately) have laws against racial/sexual and religious vilification.
All you have to do is make a public comment about any of the above and you are under severe scrutiny and could be in the firing line to be sued by one of many minority groups just want a name for themselves and to get their 15 minutes of fame.
And they're run by lawyers scraping for a buck typically that the media panders to.

I'm sure that if Qantas or any other large employer could have been sued they would have.

Besides Howard, I saw the QF pic of about 50 indigenous staff in the NT also.

But then again what would I know being Jewish and all that eh????

Besides HH, wasnt this thread about psychometric testing and not racism???
Stick to the topic.

Errrm..back on the topic..

Firstly, if you read up on this form of "testing", the jury is still out among professionals (and I mean psych specialists, NOT HR types) on this fad. It's been in increasing use now for 10-15 years and the main danger is that while it is a useful tool among many to help select the right person for the job, it's importance and accuracy in many cases is overemphasised , generally because your score is interpreted by poorly trained staff who have no psych background other than attending some overpriced 1 day seminar.

I know someone who used to use these tests in her HR job, and feels they were passingly helpful in selecting the right person, but her boss insisted on using them as the sole culling and selection tool (qualifications and experience being equal among applicants). Ultimately they ended up placing some highly efficient, ruthless sociopaths in a couple of positions and wound up with a flurry of resignations and a big mess on their hands.

Secondly, I've done a few psychometric tests over the past 15 years or so, and have had (I've gleaned) pretty much the same result/score each time. My success in getting a job offer has actually been more evident in the attitude of the interviewers during my interviews, which is to say, if they didn't like me, or were just going through the motions to place an insider in the job, I got no further than a second interview (and probably then only to make up the numbers).

Ultimately I'm glad I didn't end up getting some of those jobs. If a company isn't able to adopt a human approach to recruitment, and if this is some relection of that corporation's attitudes, why would you want to work there? You'll probably only end up being unhappy working with a bunch of %$##^&$.

Silver - my experience exactly!

Thanks to all who have sent a reply. By reading the responses out there it appears to me the big Q has lost its way in the recruiting department.

1. There is a course at the moment to help with passing this test.

2. Having a pass in the psycho test does not necessarily mean you are better equipped to fly an aeroplane.

3. Psychologist agree the memory used in a computer to run the test is a waste of computer memory.

So if the people who design the psycho test don't believe there is any value in these tests """WHY""" does Qantas insist on using them?

TIMMEEEE,
You don't know me from a bar of soap, how can you possibly make such assumptions about my character?

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

Sounds to me like they do the psych testing to protect themselves from any form of litigation should a candidate missout. It puts everyone on a level playing field.

It isn't a level playing field. There are plenty of people in the Qantas Group that haven't passed the Psycho test, either through the Austalian Airlines merger or the Jetstar (Impulse buyout).

Beer Can Bozo,
so if you're up on all the VB rumours, you must be up on all their manuals too. Did you do your ammendments and get all red-faced?
Sh%t ...now what?.... can't admit to being wrong...... Must abuse Mr.Buzzy some more.....
Keep it coming Bozo.... the hole is getting deeper for you with every dig!

bbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzz

All the expensive testing and its supposed value does not stop pilots getting into a stouch with the hired help.

Well there certainly are some very interesting comments in this thread and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
The harsh reality of the situation is, that if you wish to work for a company that is part of the Qantas Group you will need to pass those skills, aptitude and psychometric tests. That's it, there is no way around it.
Just the same as if you want to join the army as a grunt, you have to pass a battery of aptitude tests. Or if you want to fly for the RAAF, same again (they are much harder than the Qantas battery). In fact these days it is a fairly common practice for most employers in non aviation sectors to have their potential employees put through a battery of tests to get a better idea of who they are dealing with.

The suggestion was made that you can learn to pass these tests. Maybe the skills and aptitude but not the psychometrics. You can't fool the system on those two tests, there are too many inbuilt markers that will show if you are being honest or not.

The other comment I would like to offer to readers of this post is just because you make it through to the Sim and Interview doesn't mean that you will get an offer of employment. The Qantas group can pick and choose who they want. If you go in and have a bad sim, then that is hard but if you haven't developed an instrument scan in your day to day flying you won't have one in the 45 minutes that you are flying that sim.
There is an acceptable amount of nerves that is taken into account with scoring your session, but either you can fly the profile or you can't. It's no secret what is expected of you, and it's not like you don't know that you are going to do it.

I am sure that there will be a number of people that will say that my post has been a waste of time to read, but to those people I say that proper preparation and planning on your behalf will make your life so much easier on the day.

My final thought. If you go through the process and give it 100%effort and are unsuccessful then you can hold your head high and say that you did your best, but if you didn't do everything possible to give yourself the best chance then you were never being fair to yourself.

The system may not be perfect but it is the one we are stuck with ladies and gents so adapt, improvise and overcome!

Best of Luck to all of you who have the focus and determination to get what you want out of life.