:cool: yowie...great to see your 'sweetbread' out and about

:E

ROKAPE.

Maybe if you stopped whinging you'd get on and not be so bitter.

I hold a CASA ATPL, flew in Australia for five years and may well come back again. If I decide to there's nothing you can do to stop me.

Know the funny part? When I came back to the UK everyone thought I was Australian and gave me a hard time for taking their jobs. Unlike when I arrived in Australia and was welcomed with open arms and friendly p!ss taking. Good job I never met you, eh?

I got on because I got stuck in and didn't complain, just like lots of other people there. But not everyone it would seem?

Flintstone

That was a confusing little rant?

I'm not bitter about anything and I am 'getting on' in aviation.
I'm trying to promote Australians for Australian jobs, just like your fellow British pilots were when you returned to the UK.

With your attitude it's a very good thing you didn't meet me over here sir.

Rokape,
Have another read of what Flinstone wrote.
He's English, came to Australia (legally) and got requalified (already had UK licenses) and got a job. He wrote that he was made welcome in Australia with open arms and a gentle piss take.

When he returned to the UK, he was rubbished because the poms thought he was Australian (remember, he's English...) and was ridiculed for trying to take a British pilots' job....

Also regarding your rant about foreigners coming down to Australia and "taking" a job from a local. Guess what? The rest of the world is chock full of Australians taking jobs from the locals. Actually, it's better described as "the more appropriately experienced" person getting the job. The top man in BA is Rod Eddington (about to leave though), he's Australian. The top man in easyJet is Ray Webster, he's a Kiwi.

The industry is global and getting more so every day.

Thanks folks for making this thread lively... :p

Reddo, thanks for that, as the only contributor who actually knows me, your thoughts are as always most welcome, hope the new gig is going well... ;)

MOR, DeltaSix, Metro man, turbinejunkie, ITCZ, thanks guys for your reasoned unbiased input.

Now I turn to ROKAPE...

and:

I worked in Australia, paying taxes, and my position was directly resposible for providing local instructors with jobs... is that good enough for you? You do not need to applaud me though... no need for all that... :O

I am not looking 'down under' for turbo prop time, I was looking for a job, there is a difference!

Why? Only because he/she is an Australian? That is very dangerous talk for the future of your country! Just ask MOR why his previous employer recruited so many kiwis... yes, because they were most suitable for the job, nothing to do with nationality... your narrow mindednes is stagering!

As for Aussies getting a hard time in the UK, I have never seen it myself, and whilst I do not doubt Flintstones experience, I think it is very rare, and would certainly never happen in Scotland!

PS By the way ROKAPE, guess what nationality the first chief pilot of Qantas was? I will leave that one with you... mate! :p

ROKAPE

No matter how many times I read your post I can't help but hear a high-pitched whining noise in the background.

You sure you're not a pom?

He was "in Australia teaching said pilots how to fly", so?
If he was here doing it for charity then I applaud him.

I hope you wouldn't applaud him rokape. That's called working for free. Where I come from that's not too cool. In fact that could easily be the greatest cardinal sin of aviation. yes and if every national had to return to their respective countries I don't think you'd be flying a 206 in the next 10 years.

redsnail

Re read my post. I am saying that like myself some British pilots promote local pilots for local jobs. (regardless of Flintstones perceived nationality)

'Chock full of Australians', well that's the 'rest of the worlds' issue to resolve, may I suggest a trap similar to the Cane Toad Buster trap, they are very effective. The rest of the world 'chock full' of Australians.... In countries that have no GA, small military forces, inexperienced pilot body and where the occupation of professional pilot is not a career aspiration i.e. Hong Kong S.A.R. , PRoC, United Arab Emirates, Taiwan, Singapore etc. Then I guess it's every pilot nationality for themselves! Come one come all. I can see those countries being chock full of Australians, however which are the other countries to which you refer? U.K. , U.S.A. , Canada , N.Z. ,R.S.A.? Are they really 'chock full'? I stand corrected on this, as unlike yourself I am not an expat "taking jobs from the locals".


Flintstone

:zzz: Enjoying the English weather? You are right, some poms do make a "high-pitched whining noise".


Meeb

OK you worked and lived in Australia ,gained experience and were payed a salary and I'm presuming enjoyed the country and our facilities. You should have been paying taxes. I'm sure an Australian in your said position would have also been 'directly responsible' for providing jobs. Now it seems you want to return to Australia and fill a turbo prop job the same instructors/students you 'directly' employed are going for.


My apologies. However there are plenty of appropriately qualified local pilots looking for a turbo prop job .

I wrote

"Rather than trying to get your M.P. to change the immigration laws, let your manager/recruitment guru/chief pilot know that a local pilot would be better for that metro job!"

You replied


Yes because he/she is an Australian. In the majority of situations I would try to employ, from the 1000's available, a suitably qualified local pilot first. Very dangerous talk? As an Australian I think I can write my opinions regarding the industry in this country. Very dangerous talk? For who? Yourself and Flintstone? The Taliban? I think the future of Australia will be OK, brus. Although we are suffering a skilled worker shortage at the moment, but not for pilots. As I wrote
druglord

No I don't advocate working for free. It was a 'tongue in cheek' remark to redsnail.

ROKAPE

Weather is weather. It varies the world over according to climatology, seasons, local influences and stuff. Why you should feel the need to bring it into this baffles me unless it's to infer that I'm somehow worse off for being here. If so, how curious.

Now where would I rather be? Scrubbing around the bush in pursuit of twin, turbine or just any old time (no thanks, been there done that)? Plotting and schemeing in an industry with some of the oldest GA aircraft in the world? Having to pay for a type rating or compete with the silvertails and pay to fly? Or do what I'm doing now? Take a guess, mate.

As for 'dangerous talk' none of it bothers me. I've dual nationality and can return to live and work in Australia any time I like. Truth is it's a shaky old business there and I like the aircraft, destinations and pay I have now. So what if it rains a bit? I just look at the exchange rate and watch my savings going into ANZ.

The point that there are many more Australians working overseas than there are foreigners working in Australia was well made. As long as the Australian expats remain just that those struggling to make their way up in Australian aviation will have less competition. Just imagine all those ex-Ansett/Emirates/Cathay/Singapore/easyJet pilots suddenly coming home.

PS. I'm well aware some poms whine (I made the point first) but so, it seems, do some Australians. Mention no names, follow my eyes ;)

Flintstone

Point taken. I agree with you regarding the ex-Ansett/Emirates/Cathay/Singapore/easyJet pilots returning to Australia. However they are in countries that require their skills apart from easyjet (I presume). Incidentally, when ex-Ansett pilots were 'suddenly' on the job hunt again, bush bashers were still being employed by the airlines.
Australia does not/should not have a requirement for foreign turbo prop pilots. You have dual nationality, so you can pick and choose where you like to live, depending on the weather and the jobs available. Some Australians don't have that luxury, and as I have written, local pilots are the ones who should be considered first for that metro job. How many expat Aussies working in the UK have dual citizenship? Are they then really expats? Does this make you an expat Aussie or Brit? ;)

ROKAPE

You just don't get it, do you?

If the UK took the attitude that you are advocating, hundreds of Aussie pilots, currently employed in the UK instead of British pilots, would return home and effectively kill any chance of low-time Aussie pilots ever getting a job. There would be no new jobs in Oz for a good ten years. Bloody lucky for you that the Brits take a slightly more expansive view of the world.

Now, it is true that expats having dual citizenship could be construed as being citizens of the country they choose to live in. No problem there. But our friend Meeb has that right too, as does any other expat coming to Oz, or any immigrant who jumps through the hoops to become a citizen. He has the same rights you do, so what is your problem? Oh, and while you are thinking about that, how long is it since your family emigrated to Oz, taking, in the process, a job belonging to an Australian?

Wake up. A job in Australia does not belong to an Australian. It belongs to person chosen by the employer, who is best qualified for the job, and who can satisfy immigration requirements.

I am not sure which is sadder, seeing Aussie pilots squabbling over jobs flying 20-year-old Aztecs, or listening to Aussies whine on about anyone who doesn't speak Strine working in Australia.

You sound worse than a bloody Pom, and they whine like a Dart at high idle...

Oh, and by the way, I am just in the process of getting my Oz licence, so before you know it I will be across there using my 10K hours and piles of jet time to beat you to a nice job. Thanks, CASA, for making it so easy... ;)

They ALL have either dual citzenship or a UK or other european passport. Without those they wouldn't have the right to work here.

Good luck to them I say.

ROKAPE. Everyone except you acknowledges that there are more Australian pilots working overseas than there are filthy, job grabbing, foreign pilots stealing bread from the mouths of hard working Australians in God's own country. The facts support this. This is deemed 'A Good Thing' for those seeking work in Australian aviation.

Now would be a good time for you to admit to this too. Have you noticed how you are the only one arguing your corner? Everyone else is either saying nothing or trying to explain to you, slowly and in words of few syllables, that you are wrong.

If you're not adult enough to admit this just stop posting. Either way, you're just making yourself look silly.

He's just another wannabe driving a lighty, all bent out of shape 'cos he can't get a decent job and needs somebody to blame for his lack of career progression...

That'd be right.

You fool MOR....... FOOL. A job in australia most certainly belongs to an Australian. When it becomes detrimental to industry and there are no other options, then, and only then should an expat get a look in (for a defined period). Dual citizanship or not. We'll let you know when that becomes the case in the turbo prop market (or any other for that matter), but don't hold you breath. Actually do hold it.

Ivor.

If Australian employers are taking on foreign employees in aviation, basket weaving, banking, whatever then it seems they are the ones deciding who the jobs got to, no?

Who would you have sitting at the front of the aircraft your loved ones travel on, a suitably qualified and experienced foreign pilot or one who jagged the job on the basis of his/her place of birth?

And I didn't see MOR being abusive so how about an apology?

lol... ANOTHER wannabe driving a lighty, all bent out of shape 'cos he can't get a decent job and needs somebody to blame for his lack of career progression...

Now why do you think Oz airlines would hire foreigners over Aussies? Could it be... gasp... that the foreigners are more qualified? That they actually have some solid airline experience, rather than 20,000 hours banging around the outback in 20-year-old Aztecs? Time, by the way, that is virtually worthless to an airline?

If you want to blame somebody, try blaming your government, because they make the rules... not the foreigners that are invited to take advantage of them.

It s called fair trade. check out all the ozzies working around covent garden london. there is a pub in london that accepts no one other tha an ozzie, the place to go for a visa.

MOR

Australia has a smaller airline industry than the UK. If the UK didn't require Australian pilots, then they wouldn't be employed. If they are a dual citizen of the UK and Australia, then they have the right to be considered for a UK position. Some Australian pilots are working in the UK because they couldn't get a job in Australia (for whatever reason), are they going to suddenly return and walk into an airline job? No. I keep referring to the airlines as yourself and Flintstone describe myself and Ivor as "wannabes" and "driving lighties". As soon as you fail to make your point you degenerate to 'my aeroplane is bigger than yours', pathetic. If Meeb is an Australian citizen then good luck to him, he hasn't written that he is. What I have written is
You wrote
Yes a job does belong to an Australian, until we have a pilot shortage. If there is no way to train an Australian or the position requires someone immediately, then a foreigner can get a look in, after he passes working visa requirements.
An Englishman dumping on Australian pilots, our lovely old Aztecs and our accents THEN wanting to come and work here...I'm not sure which is sadder either
Then dumping on his 'own' mob as well. You are a champ, when can we expect you?


Hehehehe too late.......then followed by, twice
but wait there's more

...but myself and Ivor are the ones 'bent out of shape cos we can't a decent job'? You are a true aviation hero. The crews at Channel Express must be ready to 'wop' you, no wonder your trying to escape down under. 'Lack of career progression' for you up there?

'Solid' European airline time. Seeing as your making assumptions on flying experience and airline requirements in Australia.... Did you get the job with 300 hrs and an MCC course from Oxford flight school old chap? Or because you had Radar, VHF, CatIII ILS, a captain/FO holding your hand and all that ferocious strato-cu cloud everywhere you went? Hate to tell you but the Australian airlines you are coming down to 'beat' me to, value those '20,000 hrs banging around the outback in a 20 year old Aztec'. If your solid European experience was so valued I wonder why there are any Australian flying down here at all.
'You just don't get it'

Flintstone


Wrong.
I wrote to redsnail
You wrote

I am having a argument with two Englishman, a Scotsman and an expat Australian regarding jobs for Australians in Australia! Sorry old chap but you are wrong about me being the only one in my corner. Why don't you trawl through your own part of PPRUNE.

..but then you agree with MOR's pathetic post regarding 'wannabes', 'lighties' etc. Then you get all emotive with this one
You are making yourself look silly.
Is this British sarcasm? Everybody else kept it civil until MOR decided to crashland with his moronic comments.

Pin Head

Check out all the Brits(Pop 58.7 million) working in Australia (Pop 20 million) i.e. Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Cairns, Adelaide, Perth, Broome,Darwin, Alice Springs, Hobart etc etc. We are talking about pilot positions, and until recently turbo-prop positions.

Wrong. There are plenty of unemployed CPL holders in the UK who would jump at the jobs held by Aussies. I know, I used to be tasked with trawling through the 50-60 CV's we received every week from British pilots looking for employment.

...in the same way that Brits with Aussie citizenship, or right of abode, have the right to be considered for an Australian position... jeez...

Well Mr Biggin is certainly driving a lighty, unless a PC12 is a "heavy" in your estimation. What do you fly? You may also care to note that he was calling me a fool, which rather blunts your point.

Sadly for you, your government, and Australian law, say differently.

Not nearly as sad as you not working out that I'm not a pom... ah well, keep trying... :rolleyes:

You really are having comprehension problems! Never worked for Chanex. Or are you trying to make some other obscure point?

Well, my last UK job was as a training captain on a nice jet, so.... no. Nice try, though.

Well I started long before MCC, but I did get my first UK airline job with 710 hours in my logbook. Most of that was instructing (and not in the UK either).

Well, there aren't many. But, to the point: if you knew your arse from your elbow, you would know that lots of single-pilot time is in fact a major training impediment when flying multi-crew aircraft. All the relevant studies show a dramatically increased conversion time for long-time, single-pilot crew members. The longer you do it, the harder it is.

Now it is possible that Oz airlines have their collective heads so firmly rooted in the sand that they haven't figured this out yet, but everybody else has. Do some research.

In my last company, we deliberately did not hire people with lots of single-pilot time, it took too long to get them thinking multi-crew and we ended up chopping a lot of them from the sim course.

No... you aren't.

Luckily for us, your quaint colonial attitudes are not shared by the majority of your countrymen, your laws, or your government...