CASA Raids Meatbombers No 2
 

Gday

Last week the principal of the meatbombers at Barwon Heads was arrested for the alleged assault of one of the members of the Barwon Heads Safety Committee.

It is alleged another member of the committee has taken out a restraining order against the principal and the chief parachute instructor.

The owner and operator of the airfield has set up the committee with representatives of all the users including the meatbombers to draw up a set of operating rules (taken from CASA and APF regs) that must be adhered when operating at the airfield, it is understood the meatbombers refused to comply.

Two people from CASA and one from the APF arrived last Wednesday to apply further restrictions to the meatbombers, it is believed one of them being that they must not jump if conditions were under VMC below 10,000 ft.

As these gents were about to depart it was pointed out to them that the jump plane was climbing above cloud, if they cared to wait they would witness a breaking of that rule, they cleared out as fast as they could.

Just makes you wonder.

Cheers Q :confused:

Yes, does make me wonder?

I heard there is a charactor that sits regularly by a hanger down there with a hand held radio butting in on the jumpers organising separation with other aircraft and confusing/jeopardising the safety of arriving/departing aircraft and the meat bombs.

This same person also used to work for the said company but got the sack.

This person would want to be carefull. No doubt the operator is sick to death of the harassment and sooner or later, legal ramifications will be on the way.

I feel sorry for this pathetic creature who obviously desparately needs to get a life - not you is it Q?

Qnim this is not the only place to be blatantly breaking the jumping through cloud rule. A few months ago there was a thread about this sort of carry on at YGWA. Happened to be in that neck of the woods last weekend & they were at again, 8/8ths & still dropping. Personally I don't believe casa want to do anything about it they appear to be, to interested in trying to make life for reputable AOC holders harder for minor accidental indiscretions.

Gday Boney

"Nup"

Gday Marreeman
I totally agree, its about time CASA got real with these meatbombers, that are not clubs and force them to hold an AOC like every other GA organization, advertising and charging for their services.

Cheers Q :confused:

In defence of the parachute operators, you can not generalise about all operators being serial rule breakers. There are outfits out there that don't pressure us pilots to bust minimas and fly fully loaded. The club I fly at is dead against breaking rules and regs which makes it a pleasure to fly.

Jump flying is some of the most enjoyable flying you can do. The people you meet and experiences one gains is great. Anyway my two cents worth...

Ang ;)

I dont know the operators involved, however some operators have an exemption under CAR 152 for "Authorisation for parachute descents through cloud". I have also seen an NPRM that CASA has put forward to allow it.

Dont think the exemption actually covers the aircraft.

CASA has also issued Authorisation CASA 205/98 to the Australian Parachute Federation for "Authorisation and specification in relation to parachute descents".

CASA has also issued Authorisation CASA 206/98 to the Australian Sky Diving Association for "Authorisation and specification relating to parachute descents".

Boney

Well what a gob full and most of it bull**** ever thought (if you can) about getting the facts right?

The guy you refer to never worked for the halfwit operator and neither would anyone with an ounce of sense as he exploits all his staff and gives them up at will to the authorities to protect himself.

It’s people like you and the operator that confuse and jeopardize SAFETY don’t know your reason but the operators is $$$$ and at anyone’s expense.

Before you shoot off at the lip again it may be best to take a little time to familiarize yourself with the regs.
May help to prevent you from making yourself look like an IDIOT in future.

The operator can be as sick to death as he likes, what the guy is doing is within the regs. unlike the operator.

It is you I feel sorry for, as it must be an unbelievable burden to go through life being so stupid. (no prize for 2nd place)
:yuk:

QNIM

Spot on what more can I say the COPS and CASA have got it right.
:ok:

Griffinventure:

CASA should take a look at any dodgy operator but need to be advised of all breaches of regs. remember it has taken 3 years and 100s of reports to get action at B.H.
Maybe when the B.H. saga is resolved it will set precedence and the industry will be cleaned up.
;)

Ang737

I agree and you’re a lucky chap.

ps. Any chance of the club you fly for coming to B.H. all the promotional work has been done and a professional competitor may put this clown out of business?
:D

Rs480
:cool:

griffinventure, I hope that stick your poking into that wasps nest is a long one. ;)

Wiz,
check ya PMs

I suppose any operation can be "an accident waiting to happen", but griffin, I know the operator you mention south of PH, and after seeing him fly...I really hope nothing ever happens. But its frustrating, because pilots, especially low timers, unfortunately do not put reports in when they should. So CASA/ATSB (which we have to live with) never really know.

Ive flown ypjt to albany IFR, on 8/8 days at 8000 feet, in june, july, and these clowns are jumping from 10000 upwards. Reported it, been told it will be investigated...to this day... funny thing is that ATC and pearce both know about them...and they give tham as traffic, blah, blah, blah, but CASA does not know anything.

PJEis a big money industry, some operators Im sure do the right thing. I have flown for some PJE ops in my time (one very good one over east), and it is a great way to learn and enjoy flying.

Sorry to say that maybe it will take an accident with some foreign tourists (even though they have signed the "Im risking my life" form) for something to happen.

By the way, downwing t/o in a navajo Id say is ok, if winds are 5kts like the manual says, but with that strip, and those trees, and that weight...stupid. Tip of the iceberg?



:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

G Day Islander
 

you may have seen the other post Goolwa IFR, if the people are prepared to report the offenders,who are the best people to notify in the sky dive world ? Will they take notice ? Will it make any difference ?

Sako,

My advice would be to make my first point of contact the Area Safety Officer (ASO) for the state council concerned.
South Australian Parachute Council -
GEOFF COOLING
Phone No(s), 08 8272 8229 (wk); 0409 707 775
Email [email protected]

One would hope that if there is a blatant disregard for the association's Operational Regulations by an operator then it could be adequately dealt with at the state level.

If you receive no joy from the state ASO then I would go direct to:
National Director Of Safety, Graham (Dixie) Lee in Perth on (08) 9339 6439 or mobile 0412 122041, or
Director of Aircraft Operations, Al McVinish 07 4668 0135, mob: 0428 457840.
I would also CC any correspondence at the national level to the appropriate CASA FOI. Phone CASA on 131757 and ask for the FOI responsible for sport aviation in the state concerned.

The APF numbers given above are all taken from the APF website.

Whether it will make any difference is doubtful. There were reports of a certain pilot in WA taking off with control locks in, contually busting CTA, flying and dropping meatbombs through 8/8ths, blasting off with the door open and a skydiver being literally dragged into the plane as it became airborne. And that was just one pilot at one DZ.

Nothing is likely to be done either by CASA or the APF until there is smouldering wreckage at the end of a runway somewhere with a few corpses fused together. As has been said before, there is big bucks in this game and regulation is enforced by enthusiastic volunteers often with personal agendas. Think along the lines of an FOI being responsible for surveillance of flying training and also him/herself being CFI of an operaton within that area. That is how the APF operates.

Sorry Islander, but I really doubt the National director will do anything about it. He, the same as all APF people, derive income from skydiving, and once in a while jump though cloud if they need to, and jump into aeroplanes pushing the pilot to go...

You said it, the day the accident happens things might change. Until then, the people responsible for the safety (pilots) are the only ones with the power to not do the wrong thing, and give CASA HELL until something is done about unsafe practices.

Forget the APF on this matter.

I dropped chutes for 3 months over East, out of a 206. Every weekend, usual grind of Saturday drops. Only twice did I refuse to drop, the first because the 2nd radio wasn't operating, so a replacement was found, problem solved. The second, it was 8/8 at 7,500ft. Operator trying to get me up over it but I told him either we land, or we drop from 7,500ft. So we landed. Much to his disgust, but he saw me reasoning for it later on.

Those were the only 2 problems I ever came across. I was lucky in that the owner of the DZ and other skydivers involved there, were quite good in that they followed the rules as much as possible, and didn't make life too difficult for myself.

If you find a good parachute operator, all good and well, but dodgy ones are just way to dangerous to tolerate. Throw in a report, and encourage others to do the same.

Certainly enjoyed my time dropping meatbombs, and learnt a hell of a lot from it.

Floody

I have a question!

QNIM
Simply what is the purpose of your thread?:rolleyes:

I have read the original you started a while back and now a second go for what reason?

There has been some very interesting comments made about the sky diving world and its operators. Some very correct and educational. Also some rubbish.
But QNIM what are you trying to achieve here. A collection of people to hate the BH mob?
Why dont you start a local petition of support for your views and get it off to CASA and the local council.
Just keep sending them off. They will get the message in a while.

A number of years ago I was a meatbomber and enjoyed it very much. At the higher level it is a very responsible, challenging, and rewarding job with great people.
I found the tourist and bigger turbine operators to be very profesional and safe. They also pay very well compared to other GA or entry level small airlines.
One such operation over east has been operating IFR for a number of years now and as far as I know have little probs with traffic, or incidents on marginal days.

Also QNIM, dont quote speculated rubbish like;

"it is believed one of them being that they must not jump if conditions were under VMC below 10,000 ft"

So are you saying there is a new APF and CASA reg just for BH.

SWH
Once again your on to it with the facts. Always enjoy your posts.

rs480
states "Spot on what more can I say the COPS and CASA have got it right"
So whats the problem?

HS

PS. I also think the tandem operators should go the AOC way but I can see that in the meantime the effective body doing the same thing is the APF for the sport side of it. CASA dont have the time or the experience to deal with this so rely on the APF.
As for the a/c well thats another topic!

Thanks Jock

i think a few people are getting into the ear of the authorities concerned,

there is no excuse for them not to act. should an inocent tandem get hurt, there inaction will be exposed.

come on casa and others do something, you are getting info handed to you on a platter.

Gday

Friday the 13th is a great day for aviation.
I have been handed a copy of a faxed letter to the Meatbombers at Barwon Heads from CASA today, then to other interested parties.
I tried to scan it so as to post it but I dunno it don’t work, so I typed it the hard way.

Australian Government.
Civil Aviation Safety Authority
13 February 2004

Luke McWilliam
Skydive City Pty Ltd
1405 Barwon Heads Road
CONNEWARRE VIC 3227

USE OF BARWON HEADS AERODROME
REGULATIONS 92 AND 152 DIRECTIONS

I attach for your information direction made today pursuant to regulations 92 and 152 of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988. The effect of the directions is that parachute descents may not be made within a 2 mile radius of Barwon Heads aerodrome. The direction is effective from today.

The directions are made in the interests of safety of air navigation. They have been made to protect the safety of parachutists, aircraft and persons in the vicinity of Barwon Heads aerodrome. This is because since at least 2001, Luke McWilliam and Skydive City Pty Ltd have been party to breaches of 152 of the Civil Aviation Regulations 1988, when parachutists exiting from aircraft operated by Luke McWilliam and Skydive City, including VH-MOS, have descended through cloud and near other aircraft.

If you have any questions concerning the directions, please do not hesitate to contact me on 0262171139

Yours sincerely


Tony Rothwell
General Manager
Aviation Infrastructure and Sport Aviation Branch.


So what have they done moved to a small paddock adjacent to the circuit area of the other training airfield in the CTAF. They are really desperate.
I am sure that will be sorted early next week.

Cheers Q

Gday Meatbombers/Dirt Darts

It is alledged that there are far more reaching restrictions from various authorities to the skydiving operations at Barwon Heads than those just implemented.

Thanks Guys

Cheers Q :O

Well all the posts on CASA doing something at last to protect all concerned around the BH area is to be applauded, must say it is about time! why do these people not move to a more isolated area that traffic will not interfere with (for there own safety as well) I seem to remember that a Geelong Club was in the Meredith area for many years without any noted trouble? suppose the dollar grab is better than safety though? Do think this is only a temporary fix as they started in this area obeying all rules just to get a foot in the door and then anarchy reined supreme, but the department may now have it in hand as they are tigers once they too get the bit by the teeth.
Sounds as though by Qnim it is still about to become a bit more safe, well that can only be a great step forward for all concerned.
I notice in the local paper that the DZ operator is bemoaning the fact he is losing 10 thousand dollars a DAY? MM! sure is not about money hey? he states that he has never had an accident here but as we all know that is just pure luck on his part as the more cloud dropping can only cause the chances of it happening.
If his figure of $10,000 a day can be believed can you imagine the amount of drops this is and the concerns that the average Joe are about the safety of all other persons flying in and around this place?

the thing is, no one is flying around the place. their all flying through the place. I am sure if it was a DZ, it would be marked on a chart some where as a danger area. What does it take to fly around the area? (unless its your destination).
sounds to me like there are people with an axe to grind (other than the saftey concerns) and are just using the rules and regs to prove a point. How very GA!
you people need t get a life and move on.

Gday justapplhere

It certainly is real and signed by Tony Rothwell.

I think your criticism of the investigaters is some what harsh, they have been working on this problem for at least three years.
I think the delay was further up the chain.

Cheers Q

Im with you Wizard!
It does sound a bit like axe grinding going on down there by a select few.
I would like to think that in time the operator will sort out some sort of danger area just like they have at Picton DZ south of Sydney.
Then I would imagine the area would be safer and the wingers can move on!

HS

justapplhere. I would think Rothwell would hold that delegation.

However in view of Sect 9 of the Civil Aviation Act, how is CASA able to determine commercial parachuting operations as private category operations and delegate it's regulatory responsibilities to sports aviation organisations? (E.G. Ultra lights and parachuting.)

Air Ace,

Basically its sport as they all jumpers need to be a member of a club, and "purchases" are done through the club (in theory).

Where I see it gets very grey is advertising for services, that requires and AOC, adverts I see don't say become a member of a skydive club for one day and we will give you an introductory push out an aeroplane, rather "Tandem Jump thrill of your life" etc.

Some states clubs use similar rules to get around the liquor licensing rules, instead of buying say a beer, they purchase a raffle ticket from the club, you just happen to get a beer with the raffle ticket.

swh,

The Civil Aviation Act 1988 states:

9. CASA's Function:
CASA has the function of conducting the safety regulation of the following, in accordance with this Act and the regulations:

(a) civil air operations in Australian territory.

My question is: "How is CASA able to determine commercial parachuting operations as private category operations and delegate it's regulatory responsibilities to sports aviation organisations? (E.G. Ultra lights and parachuting.)"

In view of CAR 210, how are commercial parachuting operations able to publicly advertise their services?

justapplhere seems to be "close to the CASA action" and generally seems to be correct in his/her interpretations.

Not knocking your interpretation, but I have a real problem in "joining a club" and "buying a raffle ticket" where air safety is concerned.

I've read this gossip from the beginning and it appears that much of it is "gossip". Being in the West and a Board member of the APF I am more than happy to hear from people who can give me facts and dates and first-hand accounts of breaches of regulations. If pilots are flying "questionable" overloaded aircraft and flying in cloud without appropriate ratings this should be looked into. As should jumpers who breach the regulations. The APF is serious about enforcing the rules and I take offence when unconfirmed accusations are made in a public forum. Many of the statements made on this topic could be considered libel. I would suggest that in this forum accusations are made because the authors cannot be identified. Give me the facts and dates and identify yourself and action can be taken.

bach:

"I am more than happy to hear from people who can give me facts...." and

"Give me the facts and dates and identify yourself and action can be taken."

I'm sure those who have posted comments in this thread would like to provide you with those facts.

May I suggest you activate either or both your PPRuNe Private Message or Email function as it is currently impossible for anyone except a Moderator to contact you?

I am more than willing to immediately remove any posting which is subsequently proven gossip, libelous or contrary to the rules of PPRuNe.

Woomera

Air Ace,

By operating as a club, its looked at as a "Private Operation", you seem to have a copy of the regs and act so you can look that one up.

In theory you are not paying for the flight, the club does, and everyone is a club member.

My point that I mentioned above, and you have restated is you need an AOC to advertise, it is possible, and I believe it is done that some PJE operators have and AOC and fly around IFR.

If you want to have a look at INSTRUMENT NUMBER: CASA 388/00 follow the link, its the conditions for PJE ops, two of these have been issued, one to each of the large PJE orgs in oz.

Not withstanding this, it is plausible to conduct the PJE ops commercially under an AOC, making general comments about all PJE operators on this forum will not serve anyone any good.

Just some facts, I am not involved in the area at all.

Its bit hard to stroke every club and PJE operator with the same brush, there are some very professionaly orgs out there, and some not so, just like a cross section of the wider community.

Thank You Woomera for alerting me to that oversight. I have now activated my Private message function and look foward to recieving the facts, dates and first-hand accounts.

Go Here

CASA Miscellaneous Legislative Instruments

And open

CASA 64/04
Specifications under regulation 152 of CAR 1988 relating to parachute descents at Barwon Heads Vic (February - Revokes CASA 36/04).

CASA 63/04
Direction under subregulation 92(2) of CAR 1988 relating to the parachute operations in the vicinity of Barwon Heads Vic (February - Revokes CASA 34/04).


refers.

It's all there on the record.

Once again swh...your onto it!
Woomera...cheers mate. Have read this one.

Its interesing to note that CASA has not shut these guys down but moved them as such with a new reg in place.

I think there is a lot of pending things going on at the moment with the BH troubles and all, also with other DZ's about.
This kind of stuff has been going on a long time at other DZ's around the country.
Unfortunatly it becomes a war of jumpers against the others so to speak. As stated in a post, they came with good intentions but it turned sour.
From my past experiences thats what has happened at some 3 or 4 DZ's I know off.
I dont think its a matter of the DZ operator's becoming complacint ******s like QNIM and the like's would like you to believe, but more a fact of the area or airfield not used to the high number of A/C movements invading the space and seeming to own the place because of all the action.
And also not understanding the whole skydive neighborhood!

By moving jumpers and ringing CASA every 5 minutes because it apears they are not within the regs, or pissed off they are in your space all day, is not the answer to me.

There needs to be more research done by the APF and CASA to make the modern skydiving world (BUSY) a much safer and better place for all. Regulated as such!

As far as cloud punching goes:
In NZ read Part 105.25 (b)
A person may decend through cloud in airspace designated under Part 71 as controlled airspace, and classified as Class C or D, if they have an ATC clearance to do so.

In AUZ there is a proposed rule well worth reading for the in's and outs of it all. Go here. I hope it develops for saftey sake.
http://rrp.casa.gov.au/miscprojects/nprm0012os.asp

Air field user groups are all good too. Here where we operate is one of the busiest airports and areas in the country and we ALL operate within an MOU (Memorandum of Understanding).
ATC included. It works very well.
Maybe if people got a bit more proactive on the whole thing people like QNIM would stay a lot more happy and the BH mob won't have to lose so much dosh every day because of grey area's if you know what I mean.

Hope it all works out for all!
Bye for now.
Cheers GW
;)

My 2 Bobs Worth
 

I’m sad to say, you sorry bunch, that.

I’ve been hearing about the bull that’s been going on at this site but until I’d read all the threads I couldn’t believe the amount of absolute rubbish that seems to be coming from rs480, Lukeatme and QNIM. I’ve been flying in and around Geelong for the past 15 years and it would appear that you all have your noses out of joint as a result of his pink one being a bloody site bigger than yours.

So guys, what are you going to do when the dirt darts come back, I hear they’ve legalized jumping through cloud, so it cant be that dangerous after all. My suggestion is you start working out how you are going to work with them for the safety of all concerned

Controlled Airspace
 

Gday luke@yourselves

With all my faults, Im still to Penetrate controlled airspace without a clearance .

Have a nice day :O

Q :O

:\ I have........... so whats the biggy with that?. It happens and is unintentional, not like doing stuff on purpose. 12 years of flying and it finally happened :{ .

Gday Wiz

Did it cause a biggy to abort it's approach and was your licence suspended?

Cheers Q :confused:

Uuuuum, nope, just a simple "clipping of the edge of class C". I dunno if I'm going to get shot for it yet................... Still waiting.
could have aborted an approach if my timing was a bit better though. :uhoh:

You shoulda aborted that approach you did in melbourne oh, maybe around early 2002........

Hey Dale,

Aborted the approach ??....:E ........ geeez, by the time I got there he already had the chocks under and the covers on. :p :ok:

Oh dear, three people on two threads having three seperate shots on the same subject................ and your all still guessing. :}
some of you have extreemly selective memories. I was too crook to commit the deed.......remember? :\ ;)

Damn where's Go Girl when you need her:=

Yeah! just keep sending the money and I'll keep selectively remembering. :ok: :E