Radio phraseology
Bottums Up
Spermie,
It seems to me that we are in heated agreement that the phraseology examples in the AIP are a dog's breakfast.
Where we differ I think is that I see Jepp 6.3 Readback Requirements/AIP Gen 4.4 Readback Requirements, as the guiding instructions and try my best to give readbacks in accordance with that guidance. It takes some thought but is not too onerous.
It seems that you however, take the dog's breakfast as a clearance that near enough is good enough.
I don't believe your quote
is intended to give carte blanche to say whatever, rather it is to cover that which isn't specifically covered.
You may well think me arrogant, probably many agree, however I do my best and never make the excuse that it's too hard to understand so therefore it doesn't matter.
In closing, I find it very interesting that one does not hear ATS regularly using incorrect phraseology. If they can get it correct, surely pilots, superior as we all know we are
can get it correct too!
Where we differ I think is that I see Jepp 6.3 Readback Requirements/AIP Gen 4.4 Readback Requirements, as the guiding instructions and try my best to give readbacks in accordance with that guidance. It takes some thought but is not too onerous.
It seems that you however, take the dog's breakfast as a clearance that near enough is good enough.
I don't believe your quote
Phraseologies show the text of the message components without callsigns.They are not intended to be exhaustive, and when circumstances differ, pilots, ATS and Air defence personel, and other ground personel will be expected to use appropriate subsidiary phraseologies which should be clear, concise, and designed to avoid any possible confusion.
You may well think me arrogant, probably many agree, however I do my best and never make the excuse that it's too hard to understand so therefore it doesn't matter.
In closing, I find it very interesting that one does not hear ATS regularly using incorrect phraseology. If they can get it correct, surely pilots, superior as we all know we are
can get it correct too!
Last edited by Capt Claret; 1st Aug 2003 at 09:32.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Brisvegas
Posts: 243
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RENURP...... bwah, ha, ha ,ha. When one loses the argument they tend to go straight for the man. Your flurry of personal insults and egotistical demeanour put you at odds with most other contributors. I shall not descend to the depths of your obvious short comings. Remember, you and some of the others were trying to tell the rest of us how it is done. At no stage have I (or anyone else) laid any claim to the holy grail of knowledge.
My time in Europe gave me a better understanding of the flexibility we should try and engender in my beloved oz. I can not speak for you, but I have many very good friends in europe and an open invitation to go back and work whenever I want. Have any of your past employers offered you the same? So again your assumption was just a little shy of the truth.
"AIP is published and indicates correct radio procedures including readback requirements". If that was the case why is there more variation with radio calls down here than in most places? Do you really believe there are that many oz pilots who just don't care? Virgin, Qantas, REX, NJS all have a few variations individually and collectively. So they are all wrong and you are right hey? I refer to a previous term "skygod" . You see mate you are no better than the rest of us, despite your very obvious predeliction toward self righteousness. Your precambrian thinking is quite amazing!
"The less said over the radio the better", another gem, but who are we mere mortals to argue? In answer to your final question re social skills (thank you for the interest), well I guess you will just have to take my word that I have a great group of friends both in oz and europe. In both hemispheres, most of my friends lead lives outside of this industry, which I find very refreshing and just a touch stimulating.
I can't begin to imagine what you are like to fly with renurp, I only hope that you give your off-sider a little more flexibility than what you demonstrate in here. There always was and always will be another way to do things, and there never was nor ever will be room in this industry for shallow thinking egotists (they have a tendancy to be a touch accident prone).
Claret fair enough in some respects. I do not adhere or condone the line "Near enough is good enough" Never have never will. It would be nice if they CASA could clean up their act.
My time in Europe gave me a better understanding of the flexibility we should try and engender in my beloved oz. I can not speak for you, but I have many very good friends in europe and an open invitation to go back and work whenever I want. Have any of your past employers offered you the same? So again your assumption was just a little shy of the truth.
"AIP is published and indicates correct radio procedures including readback requirements". If that was the case why is there more variation with radio calls down here than in most places? Do you really believe there are that many oz pilots who just don't care? Virgin, Qantas, REX, NJS all have a few variations individually and collectively. So they are all wrong and you are right hey? I refer to a previous term "skygod" . You see mate you are no better than the rest of us, despite your very obvious predeliction toward self righteousness. Your precambrian thinking is quite amazing!
"The less said over the radio the better", another gem, but who are we mere mortals to argue? In answer to your final question re social skills (thank you for the interest), well I guess you will just have to take my word that I have a great group of friends both in oz and europe. In both hemispheres, most of my friends lead lives outside of this industry, which I find very refreshing and just a touch stimulating.
I can't begin to imagine what you are like to fly with renurp, I only hope that you give your off-sider a little more flexibility than what you demonstrate in here. There always was and always will be another way to do things, and there never was nor ever will be room in this industry for shallow thinking egotists (they have a tendancy to be a touch accident prone).
Claret fair enough in some respects. I do not adhere or condone the line "Near enough is good enough" Never have never will. It would be nice if they CASA could clean up their act.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: S.E Asia
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RT Asian Style
If any of you guys want a "mind altering experience" you ought to try and work in and out of Taipei some time, lot of guess work used and the CVR if read would be full of "WHAT THE F......K DID SHE SAY"
Without trying to offend the fairer sex the guys are a little easier to understand.
I'm with you SB Aus is pretty well full of it, RT crap that is.
Traffic they wouldn't know what it was or how to spell it if they had it!
Without trying to offend the fairer sex the guys are a little easier to understand.
I'm with you SB Aus is pretty well full of it, RT crap that is.
Traffic they wouldn't know what it was or how to spell it if they had it!
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a small comment, backtracking a bit, if I ask an aircraft to "report present level", I don't want to hear F168- I want the last vacated whole level ie. left F160 or F170 (climbing or descending as appropriate) or the level maintaining. This is what I use for vertical seperation. Level readbacks to the nearest hundred feet should only be used when asked to VERIFY level to ensure altimeter/radar correlation.
Cheers.
Cheers.
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is definately a market out there for an easy to use ATC compiled booklet on phraeseology.
Engineers say pilots know nothing about planes.
ATC say we don't know what to say.
Reality is in most instances they are right. But lets face it, there are a lot of things to know and any easier format would help sometimes.
I'm always willing to learn!!!
Engineers say pilots know nothing about planes.
ATC say we don't know what to say.
Reality is in most instances they are right. But lets face it, there are a lot of things to know and any easier format would help sometimes.
I'm always willing to learn!!!
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roger Standby
Mate over here in the middle east, if I said verify level to an aircraft the most likely response would be "no we're not level we're still on climb". Here you have to be very specific with what you want otherwise you get all kinds of rubbish thrown back at you. Just as at home you say "Report your speed on descent" or "report descent speed", if you say that here you will get 99 times out of 100 "1,500 ft per minute", so its always "report indicated air speed on descent". By the way I have tried to just say "Report Speed" but for some reason that confuses a lot of them even more and theres a long silence while he barrels up the back of the Yak.
Also before I came here I thought saying "Tree" for three as MATS tells us to say, was a crock, but since being here some Aussie guys have to cos the not Western pilots always think our 2's are 3's and vice versa. Still don't say "Fower" for 4, thats just stupid.
Also before I came here I thought saying "Tree" for three as MATS tells us to say, was a crock, but since being here some Aussie guys have to cos the not Western pilots always think our 2's are 3's and vice versa. Still don't say "Fower" for 4, thats just stupid.
Same Airey
Never thought of using the "tree" before coming over here, and you even have to throw in a rolling "r" when talking to Mumbai on HF. So it becomes T-r-r-r-ee, otherwise, same result as you, will get 99% chance of rubbish coming back at you.
Then again you get that from them anyway.
Charlie Charlie. This one hit me for six when l first heard it.
And as said before, if they pulled the CVR and had a listen to anything said between Vienne and and Melbourne FIR's, every second received call would be, "What was that?", and/or "Was that for us?", and/or "Direct to where?"
You have to be flexible with your RT anyway. l used to have pet hates in the past, like someone acknowledging a request to standby. Silence is the only response in Oz, but elsewhere you may be queried if you heard the request or not.
So to be non-anal about it is a good approach. Just go back to reading Just Cars or FHM when something sounds out of order.
It works for me.
halas
PS: Now Airey, when are the GCAA going to tidy up the handover from UAE to Dubai? Soon?
Never thought of using the "tree" before coming over here, and you even have to throw in a rolling "r" when talking to Mumbai on HF. So it becomes T-r-r-r-ee, otherwise, same result as you, will get 99% chance of rubbish coming back at you.
Then again you get that from them anyway.
Charlie Charlie. This one hit me for six when l first heard it.
And as said before, if they pulled the CVR and had a listen to anything said between Vienne and and Melbourne FIR's, every second received call would be, "What was that?", and/or "Was that for us?", and/or "Direct to where?"
You have to be flexible with your RT anyway. l used to have pet hates in the past, like someone acknowledging a request to standby. Silence is the only response in Oz, but elsewhere you may be queried if you heard the request or not.
So to be non-anal about it is a good approach. Just go back to reading Just Cars or FHM when something sounds out of order.
It works for me.
halas
PS: Now Airey, when are the GCAA going to tidy up the handover from UAE to Dubai? Soon?
Bottums Up
Roger Standby,
I've just had a quick flick through the AIP. The only reference relevant to reporting level that I can find is in a RADAR envirnoment, all levels must be to the closest 100'
Can you advise of any guidance suggesting that in non radar environments the response should be to the nearest 1000'?
Can you advise of any guidance suggesting that in non radar environments the response should be to the nearest 1000'?
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nice to hear I'm not the only one who finds the readback of a request to standby infuriating. Heard the Charlie-Charlie a couple of times on the Old Sector 1 in Melbourne from the Chinese pilots.
Now you gotta be more specific about the handoff to Dubai from the UAE. Lots of things could be cleaned up/changed/blown up and started over but what in particular you reffering to?? In any case as you probably know us mere controllers have no say when it comes to procedures in UAE Centre.
Where are you calling home Halas. I'm guessing from the Mumbai HF reference that you're pretty little place over on the coast bout 5 hours from us and Brown Brothers made a fortified Wine named after it. If I'm right I'm envious heard all good about the place (maybe except for the night life).
Now you gotta be more specific about the handoff to Dubai from the UAE. Lots of things could be cleaned up/changed/blown up and started over but what in particular you reffering to?? In any case as you probably know us mere controllers have no say when it comes to procedures in UAE Centre.
Where are you calling home Halas. I'm guessing from the Mumbai HF reference that you're pretty little place over on the coast bout 5 hours from us and Brown Brothers made a fortified Wine named after it. If I'm right I'm envious heard all good about the place (maybe except for the night life).
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Darraweit Guim, Victoria
Age: 64
Posts: 508
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glad to hear you're being flexible Airey, you had some beautiful foot-swallowing moments in your formative years on the afore-mentioned and thankfully dear-departed Sector 1
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for that Ferris. Go to bed and get some sleep so you can do all my traffic on tonights nightshift.
See I'm dodging traffic still Spod, some things never change. How are the FIRMS, and FLACIDS, and OSSes and FLOSSes and TOSSes (or whatever they've decided to call managers this week) treating you guys. I hope you've made a meteoric rise to power and now you, Diggler and Mother run the place. Any of you blokes cross trained yet??
See I'm dodging traffic still Spod, some things never change. How are the FIRMS, and FLACIDS, and OSSes and FLOSSes and TOSSes (or whatever they've decided to call managers this week) treating you guys. I hope you've made a meteoric rise to power and now you, Diggler and Mother run the place. Any of you blokes cross trained yet??
No Airey
Down town Dubai!
Unless Brown Brothers made one called that!
Actually just come back from a week down the coast of the fortified wine name. Beautiful except it rained for three days!
Were we dissapointed..... NO!
halas
Down town Dubai!
Unless Brown Brothers made one called that!
Actually just come back from a week down the coast of the fortified wine name. Beautiful except it rained for three days!
Were we dissapointed..... NO!
halas
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ah ok, you lucky ******. Although Abu Dhabi is ok, unlike a lot of the guys here I am a big fan of Dubai, specially the villas there. Bit more expensive to live there though I spose.
Down to the important things...is there anywhere in Dubai where you can get VB, as Crown Lager is the closest we can get (oh and the so-called Australias favorite beer Fosters.)
As far as problems with the handover from UAE to Dubai, message me with any probs cos we're always keen to hear what you guys think. I'm just a pleb but I can pass on any problems or suggestions. They'll probably get put in the circular file but you never know. Are you referring to the recent cap on number of aircraft allowed on Dubai frequency at certain times which has caused a lot of holding and work for us at Centre as well as you guys I'm sure.
Anyway I'm sure I'll talk to you on frequency often, happy flying cheers.
Down to the important things...is there anywhere in Dubai where you can get VB, as Crown Lager is the closest we can get (oh and the so-called Australias favorite beer Fosters.)
As far as problems with the handover from UAE to Dubai, message me with any probs cos we're always keen to hear what you guys think. I'm just a pleb but I can pass on any problems or suggestions. They'll probably get put in the circular file but you never know. Are you referring to the recent cap on number of aircraft allowed on Dubai frequency at certain times which has caused a lot of holding and work for us at Centre as well as you guys I'm sure.
Anyway I'm sure I'll talk to you on frequency often, happy flying cheers.
Some bars have a variety, but you pay for it.
Haven't come across VB in any of the bottlo's, but if l do, rest assured you will be the first to know.
Now that Fosters has a large stake in African & Eastern, you'd think they'd stock it?
l just wait for Perth trips to bring back my favourite - Hahn Premium, hmmmmmmmm!
What was this thread about?
halas
Haven't come across VB in any of the bottlo's, but if l do, rest assured you will be the first to know.
Now that Fosters has a large stake in African & Eastern, you'd think they'd stock it?
l just wait for Perth trips to bring back my favourite - Hahn Premium, hmmmmmmmm!
What was this thread about?
halas
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hahn premiums is a good drop but a cold stubbie of vb would bring a tear to the eye I'm tellin you. Bit like when I catch the hour package of AFL on DSTV.
I think it was about Radio Phraseology but I think it ran out of puff.
Was worried when you mentioned Perth that you were gonna say you were hanging out for Emu Bitter or whatever that slop is called.
If A and E stocked VB it would be sold out in a blink of an eye and guys'd be driving across from Muscat just to stock up. Guys have requested they stock it but no go. Maybe I'll have to start a new thread entitled "Who wants VB in the gulf", unfortunately people would think I was pushing for Richard Branson to start Domestic ops in the Middle East!
I think it was about Radio Phraseology but I think it ran out of puff.
Was worried when you mentioned Perth that you were gonna say you were hanging out for Emu Bitter or whatever that slop is called.
If A and E stocked VB it would be sold out in a blink of an eye and guys'd be driving across from Muscat just to stock up. Guys have requested they stock it but no go. Maybe I'll have to start a new thread entitled "Who wants VB in the gulf", unfortunately people would think I was pushing for Richard Branson to start Domestic ops in the Middle East!
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UAE
Age: 63
Posts: 516
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Swan Draught
Now now ANSA, Emu bitter is an aquired, or should one say a grown up taste!
Halas, if you hear of any VB let me know too...although I do think that Hahn Ice is the choice of champions.
You ex Perth by any chance? I was over there two weeks ago...bloody rain!
PS ANSA...10 miles and no closing if you would for a change!!!
Halas, if you hear of any VB let me know too...although I do think that Hahn Ice is the choice of champions.
You ex Perth by any chance? I was over there two weeks ago...bloody rain!
PS ANSA...10 miles and no closing if you would for a change!!!
Geez Airey
l can't stay up that late to watch two week old food'y. Did it once after knocking off late but realized l had seen it live when in Oz on hol's.
What am l saying. Hm-mm: for the record l do not not have an M-net decoder or a dish that is pointed at their satellite!
Now l have that straightened out........
Emu, an aquired 'growen up' tatse. You gotta be kidding Duck.
l remember twenty years ago in Darwin, it was the only beer l could afford to buy. So i didn't drink.
l lived in WA for a few years and still resisted any temptation it may have offered.
Yes a VB in the evening would be tres pleasant, l would have to agree. Certainly get sick of Dutch beer after a while, and the fact that the cans are so small. You look in the bin after a few hours and you would swear you were both p!ssed and a p!ss-head, and you realise you are neither. Maybe anyway.
Looks like Duck has answered your query Airey
halas
Don't have to go to Perth to find rain. But wind, yes if you are looking for wind, ti's the place to be!
l can't stay up that late to watch two week old food'y. Did it once after knocking off late but realized l had seen it live when in Oz on hol's.
What am l saying. Hm-mm: for the record l do not not have an M-net decoder or a dish that is pointed at their satellite!
Now l have that straightened out........
Emu, an aquired 'growen up' tatse. You gotta be kidding Duck.
l remember twenty years ago in Darwin, it was the only beer l could afford to buy. So i didn't drink.
l lived in WA for a few years and still resisted any temptation it may have offered.
Yes a VB in the evening would be tres pleasant, l would have to agree. Certainly get sick of Dutch beer after a while, and the fact that the cans are so small. You look in the bin after a few hours and you would swear you were both p!ssed and a p!ss-head, and you realise you are neither. Maybe anyway.
Looks like Duck has answered your query Airey
halas
Don't have to go to Perth to find rain. But wind, yes if you are looking for wind, ti's the place to be!
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Posts: 987
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well I for one always give 10 and no closing (maybe 11 or 12 if I'm feeling tired and emotional)...ok maybe not always but I try my best. That is unless Dubai call for 20 between all aircraft or heaven forbid 30 then the poop hits the fan. I may be shot down in flames but I honestly think UAE centre generally sequences pretty well, but as I said I might be dillusional(just woke up from a night shift so a good chance).
A stubby of VB, a cherry ripe and a packet of BBQ shapes ahhh life would be good. A stella, a kit kat, and a packet of oreos doesn't quite cut it.
Don't know whether you guys have ever been to Warrnambool(Victoria) but that takes the cake for wind and rain. Wouldn't mind a bit right now, this is my first summer and just starting to wear a bit thin, specially the humidity.
I was unfair on Emu Bitter, as everyone knows the worst beer ever brewed is West End. Which reminds me a Coopers Pale Ale would go down alright now too.
cheers.
A stubby of VB, a cherry ripe and a packet of BBQ shapes ahhh life would be good. A stella, a kit kat, and a packet of oreos doesn't quite cut it.
Don't know whether you guys have ever been to Warrnambool(Victoria) but that takes the cake for wind and rain. Wouldn't mind a bit right now, this is my first summer and just starting to wear a bit thin, specially the humidity.
I was unfair on Emu Bitter, as everyone knows the worst beer ever brewed is West End. Which reminds me a Coopers Pale Ale would go down alright now too.
cheers.
West End packaged beer-agree
Their draught off the tap isn't bad though.
l think you are thinking of Southwark Bitter. Brewed and bottled right on the Murray! Well near it anyway, at the end of a pipe in Adelaide.
l come from a town not far from from Warnambool, but tried not to go there as a ruel. Used to make suites there didn't they??
Well what to have now, as l peruse my beer fridge, hmmm
Corona, Hahn Premium, Stella, Heineken, Asahi or no wait, there is a loan VB right down the back!!!!!
Reaches in and CRACK/Fffzzzz......Ahhhh, the sounds and tastes of the bush, right here in the ME.
It'll have to be JD for the rest of the evening though, as l wouldn't want to spoil that initial aura my taste buds enjoyed during the VB experience.
Your right Airey, it does bring a tear to the eye.
Now for a pack of Iced VO-VO's and none of this pommy cricket telecast anymore!!!!
Now we really are off the thread.
So what brings over to this neck of the woods Airey.
My excuse is that the company l used to work for decided that they weren't good enough for me anymore and shut the door!
halas
Their draught off the tap isn't bad though.
l think you are thinking of Southwark Bitter. Brewed and bottled right on the Murray! Well near it anyway, at the end of a pipe in Adelaide.
l come from a town not far from from Warnambool, but tried not to go there as a ruel. Used to make suites there didn't they??
Well what to have now, as l peruse my beer fridge, hmmm
Corona, Hahn Premium, Stella, Heineken, Asahi or no wait, there is a loan VB right down the back!!!!!
Reaches in and CRACK/Fffzzzz......Ahhhh, the sounds and tastes of the bush, right here in the ME.
It'll have to be JD for the rest of the evening though, as l wouldn't want to spoil that initial aura my taste buds enjoyed during the VB experience.
Your right Airey, it does bring a tear to the eye.
Now for a pack of Iced VO-VO's and none of this pommy cricket telecast anymore!!!!
Now we really are off the thread.
So what brings over to this neck of the woods Airey.
My excuse is that the company l used to work for decided that they weren't good enough for me anymore and shut the door!
halas