Jobs for Newbies
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Southern Western Australia
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The pennies
Sir Donald,
interesting to read your post re. the European conversation. I can have a Euro passport and have an Oz licence. What do I need to do and pay to get the JAA licence. I have looked at going to the States to NAC to do my JAA ATPL, however I don't quite have the funds yet. Any information would be most appreciated.
Re the comment about being too old. Do explain. Is is still the case that if you are over 30 you can forget flying for one of the big boys?
interesting to read your post re. the European conversation. I can have a Euro passport and have an Oz licence. What do I need to do and pay to get the JAA licence. I have looked at going to the States to NAC to do my JAA ATPL, however I don't quite have the funds yet. Any information would be most appreciated.
Re the comment about being too old. Do explain. Is is still the case that if you are over 30 you can forget flying for one of the big boys?
PPRuNe Handmaiden
I have discussed this very topic at length over the last few years.
When I did it there was no 15 hour (minimum!!) IR conversion.
If you have +500 hours multi crew time in FAR25/JAR 25 or as we know it, CAO 20.7.1b (or 2 pilot time as required by law)
then you have a reasonable shot of a job. If you have been flogging around in s/e pistons in the bush then you'll have to cough up some more and really, they aren't interested.
If you aren't 737 type rated then easyJet want you to join their Sepf Sponsored Type Rating scheme. Have a good close look at it before deciding.
If you have command time on jets then they want you NOW.
When I did it there was no 15 hour (minimum!!) IR conversion.
If you have +500 hours multi crew time in FAR25/JAR 25 or as we know it, CAO 20.7.1b (or 2 pilot time as required by law)
then you have a reasonable shot of a job. If you have been flogging around in s/e pistons in the bush then you'll have to cough up some more and really, they aren't interested.
If you aren't 737 type rated then easyJet want you to join their Sepf Sponsored Type Rating scheme. Have a good close look at it before deciding.
If you have command time on jets then they want you NOW.
So thats why there areso many aussie accents in europe!Its interestig hearing how everyone started and the same applied to me.No airline jobs in australia in 1985 so off to the uk with 6000 hours and l had to do all the licences as if youd never flown.It costs an absolute fortune to convert but once again being in the right place at the right time eventually paid off.Stick at it
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Redsnail - I was waiting for your input.
Confirm that if you do not have the 500 on a Multi crew a/c that you required to start from scratch (100K).
Have there been any changes that anyone is aware of?
Wish there would be. I ain't got that kinda money
.
Confirm that if you do not have the 500 on a Multi crew a/c that you required to start from scratch (100K).
Have there been any changes that anyone is aware of?
Wish there would be. I ain't got that kinda money
.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Mr Hat,
Nah it's not that bad. However, the JAR ATPL requires you to have 500 hours in a multi pilot (or crew- National law eg CAO 82.3) to be awarded the ATPL. If you don't have that already then you'll get the blue licence ie the JAR CPL with the ATPL subjects. (Known here as the "frozen" ATPL).
What this means is that you'll then more than likely have to shell out more money for the MCC (multi crew crap - forgotten the real title) which goes for any thing from £2-4,000.
The reality is this. Turbine is king here. Jet time is gold!! Lots of time blasting around in a Baron doing bank runs single pilot etc means stuff all to the UK mob. They don't do it (often) and thus don't really appreciate it.
The market is slowly picking up here. Unfortunately if you want to fly a 737 or the like you'll have to pay for the privilege. Both easyJet and Ryanair have self sponsored type rating schemes for turboprop drivers (or instructors). If you think the Virgin Blue one is bad, have a look at the UK/Irish versions.
If you have command time on any jet but ideally the A320 or B737 then the operators really want to hear from you.
Nah it's not that bad. However, the JAR ATPL requires you to have 500 hours in a multi pilot (or crew- National law eg CAO 82.3) to be awarded the ATPL. If you don't have that already then you'll get the blue licence ie the JAR CPL with the ATPL subjects. (Known here as the "frozen" ATPL).
What this means is that you'll then more than likely have to shell out more money for the MCC (multi crew crap - forgotten the real title) which goes for any thing from £2-4,000.
The reality is this. Turbine is king here. Jet time is gold!! Lots of time blasting around in a Baron doing bank runs single pilot etc means stuff all to the UK mob. They don't do it (often) and thus don't really appreciate it.
The market is slowly picking up here. Unfortunately if you want to fly a 737 or the like you'll have to pay for the privilege. Both easyJet and Ryanair have self sponsored type rating schemes for turboprop drivers (or instructors). If you think the Virgin Blue one is bad, have a look at the UK/Irish versions.
If you have command time on any jet but ideally the A320 or B737 then the operators really want to hear from you.
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Redsnail
So for employment with an airline you generally need:
CPL (frozen ATPL) and MCC is this correct? Or do you need the actual ATPL?
And if you do not have turbine time you are not in the market for a jet job right?
You say "MCC 2-4000 pounds". What about the rest of the expenses for the average piston captain with 2000 hrs for a blue CPL?
I know you've told me a million times - too much beer has fried my short term memory!
What about yourself - still on the night freighter?
Are there any courses outside the JAR member states that will allow you to do the 14 atpls? Its the cost of living over there that intimidates the hell out of me. I suppose 14 exams scare me a little also.
If you had the 500 multi crew, the ATPL and the 2-3000 hrs with passport how are you looking? Or have I just described you!
What is considered a multicrew a/c by the UK mob? Bandit, Metro, Bras, SAAB DASH.....
Let me know.
So for employment with an airline you generally need:
CPL (frozen ATPL) and MCC is this correct? Or do you need the actual ATPL?
And if you do not have turbine time you are not in the market for a jet job right?
You say "MCC 2-4000 pounds". What about the rest of the expenses for the average piston captain with 2000 hrs for a blue CPL?
I know you've told me a million times - too much beer has fried my short term memory!
What about yourself - still on the night freighter?
Are there any courses outside the JAR member states that will allow you to do the 14
atpls? Its the cost of living over there that intimidates the hell out of me. I suppose 14 exams scare me a little also.If you had the 500 multi crew, the ATPL and the 2-3000 hrs with passport how are you looking? Or have I just described you!
What is considered a multicrew a/c by the UK mob? Bandit, Metro, Bras, SAAB DASH.....
Let me know.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 18th Aug 2003 at 19:09.
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Things are not good aviation wise there in Uk.
If you decide to go down the route of getting Uk qualified it will take you a good 6 months to do the theory minumum, never mind the flying part.
YOU are competing against all the other jet drivers of all Europe.
And dont go over there thinking you can get a job anywhere in Europe either, as any country outside of Uk wants you to speak their language as well.
Go to the Uk CAA web site, to get the list on what place can do what and where, and for the list of MC aircraft. If the aircraft is not listed you have to get a signed copy of the company Ops manual to say its operated under MC. I think an Otter is the smallest able to get away with this.
Yes, 500 MCC, full ATPL, and 1000's hrs are great.
Is it jet time, do you have experience on over 15Ton?
Got enough P1 time to be later made Captain?
Are you ex RAF?
Do you know the company TRE's brother?
Get the picture?
If you decide to go down the route of getting Uk qualified it will take you a good 6 months to do the theory minumum, never mind the flying part.
YOU are competing against all the other jet drivers of all Europe.
And dont go over there thinking you can get a job anywhere in Europe either, as any country outside of Uk wants you to speak their language as well.
Go to the Uk CAA web site, to get the list on what place can do what and where, and for the list of MC aircraft. If the aircraft is not listed you have to get a signed copy of the company Ops manual to say its operated under MC. I think an Otter is the smallest able to get away with this.
Yes, 500 MCC, full ATPL, and 1000's hrs are great.
Is it jet time, do you have experience on over 15Ton?
Got enough P1 time to be later made Captain?
Are you ex RAF?
Do you know the company TRE's brother?
Get the picture?
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I had 370ish hours when I left Melbourne in 2000 to go to the UK to look for a job flying. It was an expensive affair but all worth it in the end. I started doing meat bombing in a C206 and when I got 410 hours, was offered a job flying F27's doing night freight. Only had 40 hours on twins (doing the IR) and about 1.5 hours command on twins (solo etc).
Our company has just lost 15 pilots from the Shed fleet, most of them going to easyJet and a few from the F27 fleet. I think things are moving a little especially in the lower end Turbo-Prop jobs.
Our company has just lost 15 pilots from the Shed fleet, most of them going to easyJet and a few from the F27 fleet. I think things are moving a little especially in the lower end Turbo-Prop jobs.
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DeltaT and v1 thank you for your insights. I'm not going to jump the gun just yet. I've been looking at it for a few years now so I'm not going to rush in like I did when I chose to do my training here. A very big mistake for someone with dual citizenship.
My hope is to get the 500 multi crew here and do as much as I can by correspondance. My earnings/savings wouldn't stand a chance in the Euro league.
There is still hope.
In countries such as France, Italy, Spain and Germany do you have the option of doing the tests in English?
Are the tests the same Europe wide? And do they have courses like Nathan Higgins over there?
Nathan if you are reading mate there is a market for you
.
My hope is to get the 500 multi crew here and do as much as I can by correspondance. My earnings/savings wouldn't stand a chance in the Euro league.
There is still hope.
In countries such as France, Italy, Spain and Germany do you have the option of doing the tests in English?
Are the tests the same Europe wide? And do they have courses like Nathan Higgins over there?
Nathan if you are reading mate there is a market for you
.
Does anyone know any nice English/Irish/Swedish/Austrian/French etc etc girls who might be interested in a strapping young Aussie pilot for a husband?
Getting the $$$ and/or the hours together is probably the easy bit for someone like me!!!
TL
Getting the $$$ and/or the hours together is probably the easy bit for someone like me!!!
TL
Yep you will have to marry one if you aint got a pommie grandpa,and there are a few aussies in BA only one of which has dubious english connections.As long as you have the right of abode in the eec they(all airlines here) dont mind if you come from timbuctoo,in fact if you did you could be a refugee and get a house,car cash fridge etc! You would really want to come as things would really depress you,weather traffic cost of living. Having said that l live in the country and love it and would you believe go boogie boarding regularly in cornwall,alright with a wetsuit,max sea temp is now at 19 degrees.
L did self study correspondence courses for 6 months before coming over and doing a 2 week brush up course and sat the exams,and it was fine,perhaps someone has recommendations now its all JAR.My first job was with air UK on F27 some af which were ex ansett.A good mob now decimated by klm.Ryanair,easyjet and now flybe seem the way to go at the moment
L did self study correspondence courses for 6 months before coming over and doing a 2 week brush up course and sat the exams,and it was fine,perhaps someone has recommendations now its all JAR.My first job was with air UK on F27 some af which were ex ansett.A good mob now decimated by klm.Ryanair,easyjet and now flybe seem the way to go at the moment
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One thing that I do not understand is, GA operators place a high importance on hours.
Sure there are issues like insurance etc but, rather than ask first up "How many hours do you have" would it not be better to see what this person walking in through the door can offer the business, what skills has this person gained outside of flying that may benefit the business.
Flying the plane is the easy part! I know that if I were an operator I would ask myself, will this person treat my pax the way he likes to be treated. Would he be professional and well presented and a person that will have the business at heart.
Ash767
Ps Transition Layer try Darwin, I have noticed there are allot of European travelling females that are pleasing to the eye
Sure there are issues like insurance etc but, rather than ask first up "How many hours do you have" would it not be better to see what this person walking in through the door can offer the business, what skills has this person gained outside of flying that may benefit the business.
Flying the plane is the easy part! I know that if I were an operator I would ask myself, will this person treat my pax the way he likes to be treated. Would he be professional and well presented and a person that will have the business at heart.
Ash767
Ps Transition Layer try Darwin, I have noticed there are allot of European travelling females that are pleasing to the eye
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Ash
Hi Mate
The magic 500 hour mark for new starters is a classic case of catch 22. Operators out there take note that some of the low time guys have more professionalism and business acumen than some line pilots. A rash generalisation maybe but that is what I have seen.
And before those more experienced than us offer their opinion remember you here once.... I am in no way whinging as I am not at the moment looking for a job, simply stating the unfair gross generalisation that low time pilots are worth a pinch of sh*t.
Ang
YFC
Hi Mate
The magic 500 hour mark for new starters is a classic case of catch 22. Operators out there take note that some of the low time guys have more professionalism and business acumen than some line pilots. A rash generalisation maybe but that is what I have seen.
And before those more experienced than us offer their opinion remember you here once.... I am in no way whinging as I am not at the moment looking for a job, simply stating the unfair gross generalisation that low time pilots are worth a pinch of sh*t.
Ang
YFC
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TL Darwins the place for you mate!
Frangtang - you did the conversion prior to the JAR? Was it hard? I'd be interested if you could still do it like that -ie 2 week brush up course.
Ang/Ash I think the hours do make a difference. I would not be able to do my current job efficiently with 200 hrs. Back then I was lacking in a lot of areas. The same is true now - have a lot to learn before I step up to the next level. There are somethings that just come with experience. You just don't have to think as hard.
What the 200 guy does offer (in many cases) is an enthusiasm second to none for a job on a 172. The 500-1000 hr guy is looking to move on from that sort of position.
So what you have over experience is enthusiasm. Thats your selling point. Good luck.
Frangtang - you did the conversion prior to the JAR? Was it hard? I'd be interested if you could still do it like that -ie 2 week brush up course.
Ang/Ash I think the hours do make a difference. I would not be able to do my current job efficiently with 200 hrs. Back then I was lacking in a lot of areas. The same is true now - have a lot to learn before I step up to the next level. There are somethings that just come with experience. You just don't have to think as hard.
What the 200 guy does offer (in many cases) is an enthusiasm second to none for a job on a 172. The 500-1000 hr guy is looking to move on from that sort of position.
So what you have over experience is enthusiasm. Thats your selling point. Good luck.
If anyone really is serious about doing the JAR conduct a search for Redsnails' posts on the subject. Basically you need to do an accredited theory course unless you have heaps of heavy jet/t-prop experience. Do the search for exact figures.
Well guys, the delighs of The Vic in Darwin are coming back to me...
I specifically remember one night walking round with a mate, jaws close to the ground and a trail of drewl, mumbling the words "Ya, Ya, Ya"...needless to say we went home alone.
TL
I specifically remember one night walking round with a mate, jaws close to the ground and a trail of drewl, mumbling the words "Ya, Ya, Ya"...needless to say we went home alone.
TL
Mr Hat,L presume you can still do the self study course and then do a 2 week brush up course. I did it with PPSC in bournemouth but they are defunct.It worked out quite well doing the stuff 6 months before going over,rather than a correspondence course.It still cost 1500 pounds to do the exams and that was in 1986
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Yes the UK has always been painfully expensive.
1986 you say! A year before I took my first ride on a jet (74-classic I think..maybe a 200..)
I bet they were some golden days.
1986 you say! A year before I took my first ride on a jet (74-classic I think..maybe a 200..)
I bet they were some golden days.
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In Relation to flying_phonebox
I work for a company in WA and although an Endorsment is not Required, ive found experience is. We and other surrounding companies generally won't employ anyone with out a minimum of 20hrs on a 210 or atleast 206 time, and ICUS time.... good luck to anyone who gets given that around here. So although there may not be an endorsment as such, expierence is definatly recommended
I work for a company in WA and although an Endorsment is not Required, ive found experience is. We and other surrounding companies generally won't employ anyone with out a minimum of 20hrs on a 210 or atleast 206 time, and ICUS time.... good luck to anyone who gets given that around here. So although there may not be an endorsment as such, expierence is definatly recommended