PC-12 time
Yeah I think it is time that CASA AND the airlines had a look at this whole Single Engine Turbine Issue. It is stupid that you can have several thousand hours on a PC-12 flying higher than all regional turboprops and just as fast as some of them but when it comes to to hiring they want you to buzz around in a piston twin for 500 hours. It a ridiculous situation that really just shows how backward aviation is. PC-12 is as advanced as most and in some cases (ie metro 3) more advanced than regaional airliners. In the states regionals will wavier twin time for ASPETA exerperience under certain conditions (ie it can't be private. has to be either LCRPT or some under some other reg they've got)
So maybe it's time that CASA moved with the times and changed the regs to suit the change in technology. If they are quite happy for a cadet with a 100 hours PIC to eventually become a captain on a heavy jet then surely to goodness that a PC-12 or Caravan pilot can move onto something bigger without having to burn around in a clapped out twin just so he can tick a box!!!
So maybe it's time that CASA moved with the times and changed the regs to suit the change in technology. If they are quite happy for a cadet with a 100 hours PIC to eventually become a captain on a heavy jet then surely to goodness that a PC-12 or Caravan pilot can move onto something bigger without having to burn around in a clapped out twin just so he can tick a box!!!
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What do airline recruitment departments think of single engine turbine IFR in an aircraft like a PC12? Probably haven't thought about it much at all yet. Possibly in the same category as glider and ultralight experience!
Why?
We have all heard "This airline does not hire SO's/FO's, we hire future captains....." They are not saying this to give you or themselves a hard-on, they have to hire people that fit the bill.
The bill is the minimum experience requirements in 82.3 and 82.5.
Why hire a 'problem' person that will need three hundred hours of ICUS when they do their command upgrade when there are plenty of other warm bodies who could possibly do it in only 50 as per the regs min?!?!?
Ansett and other jet operators had to let go some otherwise fine pilots-in-training with good reps from Kendells, etc, because they could not meet line-check standard within the allocated hours.
How do you think things would go if they regularly hired people that required SIX times more input from a training captain. The process would add months. The rostering and crew planning people would love that, would they not!
The short answer for the PC12 pilot with an eye on the airlines is to have a look at the current requirements in CAO 82 and make sure you have them. Then you can 'sell' your PC12 time as time in a high performance turbine, requiring good skills, etc etc etc
As the supply of available ex duchess/baron/402/navajo/kingair etc drivers dries up when this ancient machinery starts being permanently parked, then maybe the airlines MIGHT ask the regulator to look at CAO 82.
Then again, it might just tip the recruitment scales in favour of the cadetship method.
A former management pilot (until sept 13th) of a major airline that sat on the interview panel said to me once -- cadetships have a lot to offer an airline -- there are certain risks in an airline taking on someone who has been operating out there in GA for years, what is so wrong about taking a guy/girl with aptitude through a disciplined environment right from the word 'go' and training them your way?
He was playing devils advocate, but you can imagine that there are some significant forces at work here, esp if the beancounters get in on it.
Why?
We have all heard "This airline does not hire SO's/FO's, we hire future captains....." They are not saying this to give you or themselves a hard-on, they have to hire people that fit the bill.
The bill is the minimum experience requirements in 82.3 and 82.5.
Why hire a 'problem' person that will need three hundred hours of ICUS when they do their command upgrade when there are plenty of other warm bodies who could possibly do it in only 50 as per the regs min?!?!?
Ansett and other jet operators had to let go some otherwise fine pilots-in-training with good reps from Kendells, etc, because they could not meet line-check standard within the allocated hours.
How do you think things would go if they regularly hired people that required SIX times more input from a training captain. The process would add months. The rostering and crew planning people would love that, would they not!
The short answer for the PC12 pilot with an eye on the airlines is to have a look at the current requirements in CAO 82 and make sure you have them. Then you can 'sell' your PC12 time as time in a high performance turbine, requiring good skills, etc etc etc
As the supply of available ex duchess/baron/402/navajo/kingair etc drivers dries up when this ancient machinery starts being permanently parked, then maybe the airlines MIGHT ask the regulator to look at CAO 82.
Then again, it might just tip the recruitment scales in favour of the cadetship method.
A former management pilot (until sept 13th) of a major airline that sat on the interview panel said to me once -- cadetships have a lot to offer an airline -- there are certain risks in an airline taking on someone who has been operating out there in GA for years, what is so wrong about taking a guy/girl with aptitude through a disciplined environment right from the word 'go' and training them your way?
He was playing devils advocate, but you can imagine that there are some significant forces at work here, esp if the beancounters get in on it.
ITCZ
a cadet can never hold and ATPL because he will never get 500 hours in command. I think QF have a way around it by counting command as ICUS except the only problem with that is that you are back to the same argument with the PC-12. Should the regs be changed for a change in technology or ideals. Under the current regs a cadet should NEVER get a ATPL because they do not have 500 command. And 500 ICUS is not Command when you are PIC YOU ARE IN THE HOTSEAT not the guy next to you!!
So if you are going to wavier that then why not waiver 500 multi for ASPETA time?
a cadet can never hold and ATPL because he will never get 500 hours in command. I think QF have a way around it by counting command as ICUS except the only problem with that is that you are back to the same argument with the PC-12. Should the regs be changed for a change in technology or ideals. Under the current regs a cadet should NEVER get a ATPL because they do not have 500 command. And 500 ICUS is not Command when you are PIC YOU ARE IN THE HOTSEAT not the guy next to you!!
So if you are going to wavier that then why not waiver 500 multi for ASPETA time?
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Perhaps he should, (and a simpler way is to go to the CASA regional office and look at a Form 196 - application for ATPL(A)) but that is not my main point.
My main point is that it doesn't matter what we think about the rules. They are there. Sure, there is some regulatory reviews and new FAA style stuff on its way, but a re-write of minimum experience requirements for RPT PIC is WAY down the CASA to-do list.
If a non-instrument rated pilot knocks on the door of a night freight operation, he/she can expect to be told to parse off and do a CIR and don't bother coming back until you have it.
So if it is your intention to get a job working in an airline type operation sometime within the next 5 years or so, don't expect to get anywhere until you have the minimum requirements for PIC RPT.
Once you have those minimums, then go and fly PC-12's, Boeing Tiltrotors, ground effect vehicles or whatever interesting and challenging equipment you may find until Qantas/VB/etc start interviewing, if that is what you want.
My main point is that it doesn't matter what we think about the rules. They are there. Sure, there is some regulatory reviews and new FAA style stuff on its way, but a re-write of minimum experience requirements for RPT PIC is WAY down the CASA to-do list.
If a non-instrument rated pilot knocks on the door of a night freight operation, he/she can expect to be told to parse off and do a CIR and don't bother coming back until you have it.
So if it is your intention to get a job working in an airline type operation sometime within the next 5 years or so, don't expect to get anywhere until you have the minimum requirements for PIC RPT.
Once you have those minimums, then go and fly PC-12's, Boeing Tiltrotors, ground effect vehicles or whatever interesting and challenging equipment you may find until Qantas/VB/etc start interviewing, if that is what you want.
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It will eventually change. But dear me dont bracket the PC-12 into your category of Freak Show Aircraft!
Ground effect craft. You mean that RUSSIAN MONSTROCITY!
The fact is Airlines do want to recruit people, all ready with the 500Multi to aviod any hicups and reduce training costs.
This doent mean, it is the norm. I know for a fact that Air North when then operated a Caravan and then retired them. Personally I cant understand why? Caravan an new robust Aircraft, I think was the Fall Guy for losses, and due Peer Group pressure from Senior Management Pilots, it was squashed.
They absorbed the crews into their Metro and Brasilia fleets. Some of those candidates didnt have the 500Multi.
So where there is a will there is a way. Some of these guys even had lower than the 300 hr exemption.
slps
Ground effect craft. You mean that RUSSIAN MONSTROCITY!
The fact is Airlines do want to recruit people, all ready with the 500Multi to aviod any hicups and reduce training costs.
This doent mean, it is the norm. I know for a fact that Air North when then operated a Caravan and then retired them. Personally I cant understand why? Caravan an new robust Aircraft, I think was the Fall Guy for losses, and due Peer Group pressure from Senior Management Pilots, it was squashed.
They absorbed the crews into their Metro and Brasilia fleets. Some of those candidates didnt have the 500Multi.
So where there is a will there is a way. Some of these guys even had lower than the 300 hr exemption.
slps
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I know for a fact that Air North when then operated a Caravan and then retired them. Personally I cant understand why? Caravan an new robust Aircraft, I think was the Fall Guy for losses, and due Peer Group pressure from Senior Management Pilots, it was squashed.
SLPS..
Not exactly what happened. More like...
ANR getting heartily sick of maintaining the C402 fleet.
Thinks -- nice new single engine turbine should do the job. More space, more seats (13 v 9), a PT6, pax appeal of two crew and airconditioning, etc, etc.
Cheif Pilot gives job of researching introduction of said C208 to a pilot that didn't really want the task.
First route to roll out the C208 is over water. Somewhere before acquiring the first airplane, it is not noticed that all the economics are based on the aircraft running direct DRW-BTI-DRW at roughly A020-A030.
CASA required either (a) coastal routing at those altitudes or (b) aircraft climb to at least A060 if going direct to enable glide to nearest land (and thereby spend most of its time climbing at 90kts at higher fuel burn and slightly longer ETI)
CASA also direct that C208 be max 9, not 13 pax for RPT.
Due to standard GA/third level operator administration, communication (and mistrust) between FlightOps/Accounting/CEO departments, and (mis)management abilities, all this is not realised until aircraft put into service.
First aircraft also has problem with exhaust cracking, causing delays and cancellations that require service to be flown by, you guessed it, hot, smelly, cramped 20 year old C402's.
Passengers love aircraft, but BTI so overserviced that pax just get on the first airplane that turns up while they are waiting (refer to earlier ANR Shorts 330 experience!), and who can be so sure that the 'nice' airplane will turn up anyway? Ah, customer loyalty, can't bank on it!
So the miracle aircraft enters service and starts costing LOTS more than budgeted due to some management and planning issues that are still being argued about (CP accuses pilot 'project manager' of incomplete and careless research, 'project manager' says not in my brief and stuff it i'm off to fly a jet, etc). A company then rediscovers that the C402 is the devil they know and can work with.
Currency rates change, the 'silver bullet' aircraft has caused a few headaches and is not so shiny any more, so the second aircraft on option is not acquired.
FWIW, all the pilots involved with the Caravan at AirNorth thought it was a GREAT aeroplane, including ALL of the senior pilots.
SLPS..
Not exactly what happened. More like...
ANR getting heartily sick of maintaining the C402 fleet.
Thinks -- nice new single engine turbine should do the job. More space, more seats (13 v 9), a PT6, pax appeal of two crew and airconditioning, etc, etc.
Cheif Pilot gives job of researching introduction of said C208 to a pilot that didn't really want the task.
First route to roll out the C208 is over water. Somewhere before acquiring the first airplane, it is not noticed that all the economics are based on the aircraft running direct DRW-BTI-DRW at roughly A020-A030.
CASA required either (a) coastal routing at those altitudes or (b) aircraft climb to at least A060 if going direct to enable glide to nearest land (and thereby spend most of its time climbing at 90kts at higher fuel burn and slightly longer ETI)
CASA also direct that C208 be max 9, not 13 pax for RPT.
Due to standard GA/third level operator administration, communication (and mistrust) between FlightOps/Accounting/CEO departments, and (mis)management abilities, all this is not realised until aircraft put into service.
First aircraft also has problem with exhaust cracking, causing delays and cancellations that require service to be flown by, you guessed it, hot, smelly, cramped 20 year old C402's.
Passengers love aircraft, but BTI so overserviced that pax just get on the first airplane that turns up while they are waiting (refer to earlier ANR Shorts 330 experience!), and who can be so sure that the 'nice' airplane will turn up anyway? Ah, customer loyalty, can't bank on it!
So the miracle aircraft enters service and starts costing LOTS more than budgeted due to some management and planning issues that are still being argued about (CP accuses pilot 'project manager' of incomplete and careless research, 'project manager' says not in my brief and stuff it i'm off to fly a jet, etc). A company then rediscovers that the C402 is the devil they know and can work with.
Currency rates change, the 'silver bullet' aircraft has caused a few headaches and is not so shiny any more, so the second aircraft on option is not acquired.
FWIW, all the pilots involved with the Caravan at AirNorth thought it was a GREAT aeroplane, including ALL of the senior pilots.
