VFR On Top: What the hell for?
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VFR On Top: What the hell for?
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but could somebody please explain why an IFR pilot would want to use the VFR On Top procedure?
It wouldn't be so he could get a closer look at the aircraft going opposite direction at an IFR level? Perhaps he wants to hear what the TCAS sounds like?? Camera shot, perhaps??? Moon maybe???? Show 'em the birdie maybe????? Scare the Christ out of the other crew maybe?????? Cloud skimming, maybe???????
DSBHDY.
It wouldn't be so he could get a closer look at the aircraft going opposite direction at an IFR level? Perhaps he wants to hear what the TCAS sounds like?? Camera shot, perhaps??? Moon maybe???? Show 'em the birdie maybe????? Scare the Christ out of the other crew maybe?????? Cloud skimming, maybe???????
DSBHDY.
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Bindook,
Arr yes, but you have already done all of those things: you talked to them to get your clearance, you've gone up thru cloud (after being delayed), and they are now sending you the bill!
What's the point of it all?
Arr yes, but you have already done all of those things: you talked to them to get your clearance, you've gone up thru cloud (after being delayed), and they are now sending you the bill!
What's the point of it all?
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I agree. In fact just I received the Educational material on the NEW Class E procedures about VFR on Top and the VFR Climb. On the front of the brochure is a quote 'Making sense of the Changes" - well you could have fooled me. It is poorly written, ambigous and does not describe why you may want to use these procedures ie. What are they designed to achieve and to who's advantage. I have discussed this brochure with a number of other IFR pilots and we all came up with different interpretations of what the procedures are for and what they mean. This is most worrying with only weeks away before the introduction. Come on ASA and CASA get your acts together before we start using these procedures.
I thought VFR on top was designed to give VFR pilots a bit of flexibility ie destination has a TAF/METAR that is 8/8 clear but in flight you see low(er) cloud ahead - VFR on top allows you to stay at your altitude subject to 1000' above cloud,position fixing requirements etc.
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Slice,
You are right until 10July: VFR On Top for VFR pilots becomes VFR Flight On Top, and VFR On Top is for IFR pilots (I think!).
Confused? Join the club.
DMBHDY
You are right until 10July: VFR On Top for VFR pilots becomes VFR Flight On Top, and VFR On Top is for IFR pilots (I think!).
Confused? Join the club.
DMBHDY
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As most ot the country is VFR most of the time (all the time in some places) and VFR aircraft can do anything they like in E and IFR aircraft can VFR Climb and Descend and also go VFR On Top (must be all male pilots) can someons tell me why we are having E airspace?
Whats the point?
Whats the point?
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Cheeezzz - the education program's working well!!!
BIK
If you're IFR you'll pay anyway. (They haven't said for what yet)
slice
Your furthest from the pin.
Can't wait for the C zone changes.
CG
BIK
If you're IFR you'll pay anyway. (They haven't said for what yet)
slice
Your furthest from the pin.
Can't wait for the C zone changes.
CG
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A possible reason for an IFR pilot going VFR on top might be because the aircraft is U/S for IFR due something simple (autopilot U/S).
The pilot and aircraft can still meet all the IFR nav. requirements but legally just can not fly IFR.
The pilot and aircraft can still meet all the IFR nav. requirements but legally just can not fly IFR.
And its ok to be VFR on Top because the Centre Controller gives the nod if the conditions are suitable!
How does he know what the conditions are like!
How does he know what the conditions are like!
B-C-L. Do you seriously believe that todays GA pilot would worry about a small legal matter such as serviceable autopilot for IFR - or any other unserviceability? Get real.
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Private flying under the IFR does not always require an operative A/P depending on ACFT.
There has only been one time when VFR on top has ever been useful to me and that is in a non radar light single at near max gross on a warm day with a limited service ceiling (FL120 if lucky) in an eastbound flight OCTA that started VFR at FL115. The last part of the flight was on top of a FL105 OVC towards SCT TCU/CB's, and a QNH of less than 1013 (making FL 110 unavailable for instrument flight). Staying at FL115 with visual clearance from the TCU/CB's allowed manouevring clear of the buildups until requesting change to IFR for descent. Would not like to have descended to 9000' blundering through .......
[edited for spelling etc.]
There has only been one time when VFR on top has ever been useful to me and that is in a non radar light single at near max gross on a warm day with a limited service ceiling (FL120 if lucky) in an eastbound flight OCTA that started VFR at FL115. The last part of the flight was on top of a FL105 OVC towards SCT TCU/CB's, and a QNH of less than 1013 (making FL 110 unavailable for instrument flight). Staying at FL115 with visual clearance from the TCU/CB's allowed manouevring clear of the buildups until requesting change to IFR for descent. Would not like to have descended to 9000' blundering through .......
[edited for spelling etc.]
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Centarus
Yes, I am real.
I worked for a GA operator in the past in which we forced quite often to fly VFR because the autopilot was U/S.
If it was U/S :
1- it had to be written up on the MR
2- you could not fly IFR charter anymore
If you thought you knew better ("real" as you say), then heaven forbid if the chief pilot found out - and he was well aware of aircraft servicability most of the time as he flew the fleet himself.
I worked for a GA operator in the past in which we forced quite often to fly VFR because the autopilot was U/S.
If it was U/S :
1- it had to be written up on the MR
2- you could not fly IFR charter anymore
If you thought you knew better ("real" as you say), then heaven forbid if the chief pilot found out - and he was well aware of aircraft servicability most of the time as he flew the fleet himself.
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B-C-L: An IFR aircraft who who requests to operate VFR-on-top, is for all intents and purposes with the one exception of ATC separation, still IFR.
If the aircraft is U/S for IFR, then this procedure doesn't help you.
Megle2:
"And its ok to be VFR on Top because the Centre Controller gives the nod if the conditions are suitable!
How does he know what the conditions are like!"
We couldn't agree with you more. A controller working in Melb. Centre is in no position to over rule a pilot who advises VMC conditions over Bendigo, Vic., let alone Albany W.A..
We are however, not to approve VFR-on-top, or VFR climb/descent if we consider a collision risk exists. This may make either procedure untenable because if we don't have a separation standard, then by default, we must assume such a risk exists.
Blue skies, you'll need them
If the aircraft is U/S for IFR, then this procedure doesn't help you.
Megle2:
"And its ok to be VFR on Top because the Centre Controller gives the nod if the conditions are suitable!
How does he know what the conditions are like!"
We couldn't agree with you more. A controller working in Melb. Centre is in no position to over rule a pilot who advises VMC conditions over Bendigo, Vic., let alone Albany W.A..
We are however, not to approve VFR-on-top, or VFR climb/descent if we consider a collision risk exists. This may make either procedure untenable because if we don't have a separation standard, then by default, we must assume such a risk exists.
Blue skies, you'll need them
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BCL
Further to 5miles comments. You generally can't be VFR on top unless you have climbed through the cloud that you intend to be on top of. This can't be done in a non IFR aircraft unless you remained clear of cloud on your climb and subsequent descent.
The only exception in your case is if the pilot is happy flying without an autopilot within the 3 days after it was u/s'ed.
Further to 5miles comments. You generally can't be VFR on top unless you have climbed through the cloud that you intend to be on top of. This can't be done in a non IFR aircraft unless you remained clear of cloud on your climb and subsequent descent.
The only exception in your case is if the pilot is happy flying without an autopilot within the 3 days after it was u/s'ed.
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You DO NOT need an IFR aircraft to fly VFR on top, otherwise why would the AIP allow it ? SeeAIP ENR 1.1 17.2 VFR Nav. Requirements
To fly VFR on top does not necessarily mean you will have to climb/descend through cloud.
I have flown VFR on top on many occasions and have still remained in VMC during climb/descent.
This is usually possible on very long flights (several hours) in which you might cover several hundred miles. Most pilots would be well aware how the weather can change over such a long flight. You can depart/arrive in VMC, however be VFR on top maybe part of the way enroute. You would always check the weather forecasts/reports before you depart and enroute to ensure that VFR climb/descent is still possible.
For example - you might depart early morning in VMC, fly inland and be VFR on top of a low layer of fog/stratus, and as the day goes on the low level cloud disappears. However this is not the only scenario when it can happen.
I did it many times, and always VFR
To fly VFR on top does not necessarily mean you will have to climb/descend through cloud.
I have flown VFR on top on many occasions and have still remained in VMC during climb/descent.
This is usually possible on very long flights (several hours) in which you might cover several hundred miles. Most pilots would be well aware how the weather can change over such a long flight. You can depart/arrive in VMC, however be VFR on top maybe part of the way enroute. You would always check the weather forecasts/reports before you depart and enroute to ensure that VFR climb/descent is still possible.
For example - you might depart early morning in VMC, fly inland and be VFR on top of a low layer of fog/stratus, and as the day goes on the low level cloud disappears. However this is not the only scenario when it can happen.
I did it many times, and always VFR
Last edited by Bagot_Community_Locator; 29th Jun 2003 at 11:01.