Bankstown job scene...
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Bagot,
so what are your thoughts on flying at night with no moon over the tanami desert, there not alot to see there, IMC i'd reckon.
IMHO the 10% thing is a feed of crank.
if its BS his\her next employer will work it out.
so what are your thoughts on flying at night with no moon over the tanami desert, there not alot to see there, IMC i'd reckon.
IMHO the 10% thing is a feed of crank.
if its BS his\her next employer will work it out.
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NIGHT VMC (even if over the Tanami without a moon) IS NOT IF TIME !!!
see http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...ps/logbook.pdf
I flew in those conditions in a VFR aeroplane (across the whole of Australia entirely at night) and as I was VFR, I did not log it as IF, even though it was pitch black. The flight itself was a legal VFR flight and met all the NVFR requirements !!
see http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/...ps/logbook.pdf
I flew in those conditions in a VFR aeroplane (across the whole of Australia entirely at night) and as I was VFR, I did not log it as IF, even though it was pitch black. The flight itself was a legal VFR flight and met all the NVFR requirements !!
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Bagot - don't forget that in that 140 is the IF time of 30 - 35 hrs of the initial instrument rating as well!!
And yes - it is all real time. If it wasn't, then the employer would soon pick it up as said in an earlier post.
BTW, what are you flying at the moment? and where? we'd all be interested..
Cheers!
And yes - it is all real time. If it wasn't, then the employer would soon pick it up as said in an earlier post.
BTW, what are you flying at the moment? and where? we'd all be interested..
Cheers!
RYAN TCAD
You know I have been flying for over 17 years, have nearly 10000 hours total experience, about 7000 on IFR plans but I only have 350 hrs of actual IF time. And guess what actual IF gets even harder to accumulate once you start driving jets. Be very careful what you log because most airlines will ask you exactly how you log your hours if they seem a little high. Actual IF is very difficult to see accrue because even on the worst of days you spend so little time in cloud. NVFR doesn’t count on an IFR plan even though sometimes I think it should. Oh and bye the way most of my flying experience prior to my current job was in GA below 10000ft.
You know I have been flying for over 17 years, have nearly 10000 hours total experience, about 7000 on IFR plans but I only have 350 hrs of actual IF time. And guess what actual IF gets even harder to accumulate once you start driving jets. Be very careful what you log because most airlines will ask you exactly how you log your hours if they seem a little high. Actual IF is very difficult to see accrue because even on the worst of days you spend so little time in cloud. NVFR doesn’t count on an IFR plan even though sometimes I think it should. Oh and bye the way most of my flying experience prior to my current job was in GA below 10000ft.
I flew in those conditions in a VFR aeroplane (across the whole of Australia entirely at night) and as I was VFR, I did not log it as IF, even though it was pitch black. The flight itself was a legal VFR flight and met all the NVFR requirements !!
Now, the way the feat of night flying here is accomplished is by the use of CDF as it should be. Areas of grey in the regs seem to allow some to interpret them differently to others, so I guess there are those who will use their interpretation to their own advantage and log what they feel is instrument time to gain whatever advantage they feel they can over others.
Have a good one.
OpsNormal
I think you need to read paragraph 9. a. (i) – (iv) of the above link again. It makes it clear what IMC is and what can and can’t be logged. I think you are also confusing navigation fixing requirements with IMC requirements. They are not related. Remember IFR flights have a position fixing requirement as well and in some parts of Australia this maybe hard to comply with also. If people think they are getting an advantage logging IF at night in VMC, think again. When I was interviewing new pilots at my last company, they stuck out like dogs balls. So therefore those that maybe so inclined, you have been warned.
9. Recording of Instrument Time. Instrument time is recorded in the Instrument column as either 'Flight' or 'Ground':
a. 'Flight' component. All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column.
(i) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight.
(ii) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the autopilot may log all flight time as instrument flight.
(iii) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC.
(iv) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
b. 'Ground' component. Visual and instrument flight conducted in an approved flight simulator or synthetic trainer may be recorded in the appropriate section at the rear of the logbook. The instrument element of a flight conducted in a simulator or synthetic flight trainer maybe transferred to the 'Ground', 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column in the Instrument section of the flight record.
I think you need to read paragraph 9. a. (i) – (iv) of the above link again. It makes it clear what IMC is and what can and can’t be logged. I think you are also confusing navigation fixing requirements with IMC requirements. They are not related. Remember IFR flights have a position fixing requirement as well and in some parts of Australia this maybe hard to comply with also. If people think they are getting an advantage logging IF at night in VMC, think again. When I was interviewing new pilots at my last company, they stuck out like dogs balls. So therefore those that maybe so inclined, you have been warned.
9. Recording of Instrument Time. Instrument time is recorded in the Instrument column as either 'Flight' or 'Ground':
a. 'Flight' component. All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column.
(i) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight.
(ii) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the autopilot may log all flight time as instrument flight.
(iii) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC.
(iv) Instrument approaches are to be credited to the pilot (pilots, in the case of an airborne radar approach) manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot during the approach.
b. 'Ground' component. Visual and instrument flight conducted in an approved flight simulator or synthetic trainer may be recorded in the appropriate section at the rear of the logbook. The instrument element of a flight conducted in a simulator or synthetic flight trainer maybe transferred to the 'Ground', 'Ground Training' or 'Simulator' column in the Instrument section of the flight record.
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My total I/F works out to be about 15% of my total. I don't agree that the magical figure of 10% should be used as the norm. because there is no norm.
I've quite often found my self sitting in cloud at levels from below 10000' up to the high 20s for sectors of 1 1/2 to 2 hours long. Some while providing input to the auto pilot and others while hand flying.
I wouldn't be surprised if, hypothetically, I was interviewing a pilot that had done many years of flying up and down the East coast, that had 20 or even 30% of total time logged as IF.
It depends a great deal on where you have been flying.
I've quite often found my self sitting in cloud at levels from below 10000' up to the high 20s for sectors of 1 1/2 to 2 hours long. Some while providing input to the auto pilot and others while hand flying.
I wouldn't be surprised if, hypothetically, I was interviewing a pilot that had done many years of flying up and down the East coast, that had 20 or even 30% of total time logged as IF.
It depends a great deal on where you have been flying.
IF time.
Bargearse, you are right, it shouldn't be regarded as a magic fiqure but for flying up North anything greater than that should be regarded as sus. East/South coast is a different story of course but I have seen guys/girls log all sorts of rubbish as IF. One guy was of the opinion that if you didn't look out of the window too much logging IF was justifiable!?!?!?!
G'day 404, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately I think you may have missed the subtle hint I was trying to convey....
Desert night + No Moon = Pitch Black = No Visible Horizon = Flight must be carried-out by sole reference to instruments as you don't have ANY visual clues outside whatsoever!
NO VISUAL REFERENCE = ? (is the question!)
Some will argue that if there is no visual reference, then it is IMC!
What I was trying to get at is that some have many different ways of interpreting things, and this may be a root of the cause! (I've already stated how I log those flights - so no, I'm not advocating it).
Re; Position fixing, no I'm not confused at all. A visual flight must be able to pos fix (either navaid or visually), at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes. How does one do that in a run of mill GA a/c at night out here when...
1. You can't see a d*mned thing out the window on a moonless night... ie; Towns - upwards of 500km apart, the odd single bulb farmhouse, but it may as well be just a star on the ground.
2. Navaids that are well out of the normal cruising range of 99.9% of GA a/c to be able to fix from in the required intervals? (Remember technically we cannot use GPS for primary means nav during a visual flight).
I was probably playing Devils Advocate if you kinda see where I'm coming from..... I'm also yet to find a 210 or a Chieftain that'll crack 250 kts yet...
What I was trying to say (without actually mouthing the words), is that sometimes the rules and regs are about as applicable as a pooh sandwich (which might actually be more palatable) to the day to day running of the industry, and there are individuals who make the rules suit themselves.
Regards,
OpsN.
Desert night + No Moon = Pitch Black = No Visible Horizon = Flight must be carried-out by sole reference to instruments as you don't have ANY visual clues outside whatsoever!
NO VISUAL REFERENCE = ? (is the question!)
Some will argue that if there is no visual reference, then it is IMC!
What I was trying to get at is that some have many different ways of interpreting things, and this may be a root of the cause! (I've already stated how I log those flights - so no, I'm not advocating it).
Re; Position fixing, no I'm not confused at all. A visual flight must be able to pos fix (either navaid or visually), at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes. How does one do that in a run of mill GA a/c at night out here when...
1. You can't see a d*mned thing out the window on a moonless night... ie; Towns - upwards of 500km apart, the odd single bulb farmhouse, but it may as well be just a star on the ground.
2. Navaids that are well out of the normal cruising range of 99.9% of GA a/c to be able to fix from in the required intervals? (Remember technically we cannot use GPS for primary means nav during a visual flight).
I was probably playing Devils Advocate if you kinda see where I'm coming from..... I'm also yet to find a 210 or a Chieftain that'll crack 250 kts yet...
What I was trying to say (without actually mouthing the words), is that sometimes the rules and regs are about as applicable as a pooh sandwich (which might actually be more palatable) to the day to day running of the industry, and there are individuals who make the rules suit themselves.
Regards,
OpsN.
OpsNormal
I noted you said that you didn’t log NVFR as IF which is the only interpretation one can make. Personally on some nights I think you should be able to but unless you are in cloud and on an IFR plan sorry. They are the rules and we have to live with them. There is NO other interpretation that can be made of it.
In regard to operating NVFR out in the boonies, well I think you have answered your own question. If you can’t operate to the NVFR navigation fixing requirements, then under the current rules you can’t depart. You may be able to depart IFR if the ground Nav aids are close enough or if you have an IFR approved GPS on board and you are approved to use it for enroute navigation. I remember years ago being told by a very experienced instructor and ATO that the whole idea of NVFR isn’t to go from A to B totally at night but to allow you to get into a place after last light if you are running late and to allow you to depart just before first light if you needed to get somewhere early. While his advice isn’t written in any of the rules, it is very good advice.
I noted you said that you didn’t log NVFR as IF which is the only interpretation one can make. Personally on some nights I think you should be able to but unless you are in cloud and on an IFR plan sorry. They are the rules and we have to live with them. There is NO other interpretation that can be made of it.
(i) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight.
BIK_116.80
I concur, it isn’t an official rule. It is though their interpretation of the rules. Now one can argue that their interpretation is wrong. I too think some of it is wrong. Until someone can show me written evidence, i.e. a court ruling then I am going to have to go along with it. After all they are the rule makers and it is on their web sight.
PS: The official regs are very vague on this who issue. Maybe that is why CASA have come out with this general guide in the first place.
I concur, it isn’t an official rule. It is though their interpretation of the rules. Now one can argue that their interpretation is wrong. I too think some of it is wrong. Until someone can show me written evidence, i.e. a court ruling then I am going to have to go along with it. After all they are the rule makers and it is on their web sight.
PS: The official regs are very vague on this who issue. Maybe that is why CASA have come out with this general guide in the first place.
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You are very confused OpsNormal
1 - My definition of IMC (IF time) is when you are in cloud/fog/dense smoke or very heavy precipitation (you can not see beyond your wingtip)
2 - I did not ever say I used GPS for navigation to satisfy navigation/position fixing requirements and there was no need to - I was navigating be reference to nav. aids and met all the position fixing requirements
3 - You say
You are so wrong here.
When did you last read the AIP ?
For a VFR aircraft navigating by reference to nav aids, the maximum time interval between fixes must not exceed 2 hours (same as IFR) See the AIP - ENR 17.2.1 e).
This means the position fixing requirements ARE within reach of GA aircraft (contrary to what you said).
I do not need a 250 knot GA machine to meet the position fixing requirements.
A 150 knot machine is more than legally capable.
4- Just because you can not see a thing outside does not mean you are in IMC. You can still be in VMC. Do you know the definition of VMC ?
2 - I did not ever say I used GPS for navigation to satisfy navigation/position fixing requirements and there was no need to - I was navigating be reference to nav. aids and met all the position fixing requirements
3 - You say
A visual flight must be able to pos fix (either navaid or visually), at intervals not exceeding 30 minutes
When did you last read the AIP ?
For a VFR aircraft navigating by reference to nav aids, the maximum time interval between fixes must not exceed 2 hours (same as IFR) See the AIP - ENR 17.2.1 e).
This means the position fixing requirements ARE within reach of GA aircraft (contrary to what you said).
I do not need a 250 knot GA machine to meet the position fixing requirements.
A 150 knot machine is more than legally capable.
4- Just because you can not see a thing outside does not mean you are in IMC. You can still be in VMC. Do you know the definition of VMC ?
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BIK 116.8 AMEN
BIK 116.8, thanks for pointing this discrepancy out.
As for B-C-L.........
Whooppeedee doo!! Did anyone ever explain to you that 'legal' does not always equal 'safe''? There are MANY limitations in order to operate SAFELY NVFR. NVFR by convention, is to be used (generally) to leave/arrive before/after last/first light, and is ok for flying at night where there is ADEQUATE VISUAL REFERENCE, not really to fly across great expanses of BLACK.
Over sparsely populated terrain with the occasional homestead light, the ground melts into the sky and even with roads with traffic or towns etc, false horizons become sirens to tempt disbelief in the dials and follow the eyes and the 'body'. COUNTLESS have lost it, or their lives, in these exact circumstances. Not to mention somatographic illusions etc etc etc etc etc.
I suggest that you do a google search, or get some HPL books and have a look at the kind of problems that the pilot can encounter when operating in an environment without ADEQUATE VISUAL REFERENCE.
Go get a CIR and when you have to fly in an environment that is short on ADEQUATE VISUAL REFERENCE (at least a horizon or lit terrain) use IF procedures in a suitably equipped IFR aircraft, and log it as IF as appropriate (read what BIK 116.8 suggests).
The @rse you save could very well be that of your own (or God forbid - some poor simple who's on board with you).
As for B-C-L.........
I flew in those conditions in a VFR aeroplane (across the whole of Australia entirely at night) and as I was VFR, I did not log it as IF, even though it was pitch black. The flight itself was a legal VFR flight and met all the NVFR requirements !!
Over sparsely populated terrain with the occasional homestead light, the ground melts into the sky and even with roads with traffic or towns etc, false horizons become sirens to tempt disbelief in the dials and follow the eyes and the 'body'. COUNTLESS have lost it, or their lives, in these exact circumstances. Not to mention somatographic illusions etc etc etc etc etc.
I suggest that you do a google search, or get some HPL books and have a look at the kind of problems that the pilot can encounter when operating in an environment without ADEQUATE VISUAL REFERENCE.
Go get a CIR and when you have to fly in an environment that is short on ADEQUATE VISUAL REFERENCE (at least a horizon or lit terrain) use IF procedures in a suitably equipped IFR aircraft, and log it as IF as appropriate (read what BIK 116.8 suggests).
The @rse you save could very well be that of your own (or God forbid - some poor simple who's on board with you).
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Well guy's - who would have thought that my original post could generate all this? Some way off the topic, but hey - great to see that it has generated all the discussion that it has. It's very positive!
Thanks again for all the input, - i hope to do some of that with the controls of an aircraft round BK soon! - ...Input that is!
Cheers...
Ryan Tcad
Thanks again for all the input, - i hope to do some of that with the controls of an aircraft round BK soon! - ...Input that is!
Cheers...
Ryan Tcad
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Col. Kurtz
How much safer would it have been if I was flying IFR compared to VFR ?
Please explain what you mean ?
It is still a single engine aeroplane.
Are you saying that as soon as a single engine upgrades from VFR to IFR it is automatically much safer ? It is still the same aeroplane !!!
The aeroplane was VFR however it met all the PVT IFR instrument requirements. (CAO 20.18 Appendix IV).
If the aircraft was IFR, it would still have the same engine, same airframe, same instruments and same pilot. The only difference would be the tick in the box on the Maintenance Release and the extra costs associated with it. Sure these intruments would be maintained to a higher IFR standard however I don't think this would have so significantly improved the safety of the flight.
For your information, I am IFR rated but the the only reason I went VFR was because the aircraft was not IFR.
I do not need to do a google search or get some HPL books as I am well aware of somatrographic illusions etc. I studied about it all both in my CPL and ATPL. I was already trained to fly by instruments before I did this flight.
In regards the IFR traffic information service I missed out on - well there was NO traffic at that time of the night in the middle of Australia !! I was at a VFR level and still making regular "all stations" broadcasts.
In regards to SAR watch, I had a nominated SARTIME - maybe not as safe as the 1/2 hour IFR reports in case I went missing but once again, not as a deadly dangerous operation as you make it out to be.
BIK 116.8 :
I think you have been flying VH-BIC too much.
So you believe you can log IF time if you are on top of 8/8 cloud. In other words, you might be several thousand feet above a layer of cloud, at day, have a clear 360 degree horizon, have unlimited visibilty and then still log it as IF ?
Are you the type of person who logs the whole flight as IF just because it is an IFR plan even though you were in VMC all the time ?
I suppose you also log taxi time as IF - its still an IFR plan isn't it ?
If so many others can get away with it (the airlines think they got highly experienced IFR pilots) , maybe I should do the same
Please explain what you mean ?
It is still a single engine aeroplane.
Are you saying that as soon as a single engine upgrades from VFR to IFR it is automatically much safer ? It is still the same aeroplane !!!
The aeroplane was VFR however it met all the PVT IFR instrument requirements. (CAO 20.18 Appendix IV).
If the aircraft was IFR, it would still have the same engine, same airframe, same instruments and same pilot. The only difference would be the tick in the box on the Maintenance Release and the extra costs associated with it. Sure these intruments would be maintained to a higher IFR standard however I don't think this would have so significantly improved the safety of the flight.
For your information, I am IFR rated but the the only reason I went VFR was because the aircraft was not IFR.
I do not need to do a google search or get some HPL books as I am well aware of somatrographic illusions etc. I studied about it all both in my CPL and ATPL. I was already trained to fly by instruments before I did this flight.
In regards the IFR traffic information service I missed out on - well there was NO traffic at that time of the night in the middle of Australia !! I was at a VFR level and still making regular "all stations" broadcasts.
In regards to SAR watch, I had a nominated SARTIME - maybe not as safe as the 1/2 hour IFR reports in case I went missing but once again, not as a deadly dangerous operation as you make it out to be.
BIK 116.8 :
I think you have been flying VH-BIC too much.
So you believe you can log IF time if you are on top of 8/8 cloud. In other words, you might be several thousand feet above a layer of cloud, at day, have a clear 360 degree horizon, have unlimited visibilty and then still log it as IF ?
Are you the type of person who logs the whole flight as IF just because it is an IFR plan even though you were in VMC all the time ?
I suppose you also log taxi time as IF - its still an IFR plan isn't it ?
If so many others can get away with it (the airlines think they got highly experienced IFR pilots) , maybe I should do the same
Last edited by Bagot_Community_Locator; 29th May 2003 at 17:57.
Ops Normal,
As was mentioned above, the VFR 30 min fix requirement only applies to visual fixes. No other. If you are able to to use navaids then 2 hrs is the maximum period between fixes.
That's not 2 hours between navaids (as someone once tried to tell me ) but between fixes. A radio fix can be any combination of position lines so any combination of navaids - on or off track - that give lines crossing at >45 deg are available to reset the 2 hr clock.
As was mentioned above, the VFR 30 min fix requirement only applies to visual fixes. No other. If you are able to to use navaids then 2 hrs is the maximum period between fixes.
That's not 2 hours between navaids (as someone once tried to tell me
) but between fixes. A radio fix can be any combination of position lines so any combination of navaids - on or off track - that give lines crossing at >45 deg are available to reset the 2 hr clock.
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OpsNormal
You said
As both I and Tinstaafl said earlier "2 hours between nav. aid fixes".
From memory, the greatest distance between nav. aids was the sector Tenant Creek - Katherine. Total distance = 323nm (598km)
I just did some calculations and worked out that you do not need a 250 knot machine to fly this sector. Would you believe an 85 knot machine (Cessna 150) would be more than fast enough !!!
Flying at 10,000, you would still get a VOR/DME fix at 120nm outbound from Tenant Creek, then in 2 hours time (another 170nm,) you would be only 33nm from Katherine - in which you could easily get a VOR/DME fix again (rated coverage 120nm at 10,000') !!
The total time for the trip would be about 3.8 hours and it would be perfectly legal in something as slow as a Cessna 150 or something even slower.
A cruise speed of 85 knots would be well within the capabilities of most GA aircraft.
Your statement about 99.9% of GA aircraft being incapable is entirely incorrect.
You might find that as much as 90% of GA aircraft are more than capable of doing this flight (as long as they are NVFR and VOR/DME equipped), and probably 99.9% of GA aircraft are more than capable on ever shorter sectors than the one mentioned.
Navaids that are well out of the normal cruising range of 99.9% of GA a/c to be able to fix from in the required intervals?
I was probably playing Devils Advocate if you kinda see where I'm coming from..... I'm also yet to find a 210 or a Chieftain that'll crack 250 kts yet...
I was probably playing Devils Advocate if you kinda see where I'm coming from..... I'm also yet to find a 210 or a Chieftain that'll crack 250 kts yet...
From memory, the greatest distance between nav. aids was the sector Tenant Creek - Katherine. Total distance = 323nm (598km)
I just did some calculations and worked out that you do not need a 250 knot machine to fly this sector. Would you believe an 85 knot machine (Cessna 150) would be more than fast enough !!!
Flying at 10,000, you would still get a VOR/DME fix at 120nm outbound from Tenant Creek, then in 2 hours time (another 170nm,) you would be only 33nm from Katherine - in which you could easily get a VOR/DME fix again (rated coverage 120nm at 10,000') !!
The total time for the trip would be about 3.8 hours and it would be perfectly legal in something as slow as a Cessna 150 or something even slower.
A cruise speed of 85 knots would be well within the capabilities of most GA aircraft.
Your statement about 99.9% of GA aircraft being incapable is entirely incorrect.
You might find that as much as 90% of GA aircraft are more than capable of doing this flight (as long as they are NVFR and VOR/DME equipped), and probably 99.9% of GA aircraft are more than capable on ever shorter sectors than the one mentioned.
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As you move up the employment ladder, sooner or later, some CASA FOI gets to see your logbook. They might find it very interesting on how you logged IF time on a VFR flight without a safety pilot. If the flight requires IF time, was it really a legal VFR flight?? The only people believing those kind of logbook entries are the authors. So keep fooling yourself. Perhaps it explains why some pilots turn up for Instrument Rating training with lots of instrument time but in reality are only limited VFR pilots. “I’ve got 50 hours of IF time, just give me a pre CIR test, then the test and Bob’s your uncle”????
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Ich Fliege
Or some pilots that front for a job interview sim ride claiming many hours I.F., and handling the sim like someone who's never been inside a cloud before.
Very depressing.
Very depressing.