Co-pilot night recency
Thread Starter
Co-pilot night recency
Just wondering if anyone has wrestled with this one?
As a co-pilot, on a multi-crew aircraft (obviously) what are the night recency requirements? In particular T/O and LDG.
I have searched the CAOs and CARs, in particular 5.109 and 5.170 since a co-ey only requires a CPL or ATPL (better). The operation in particular is charter >5700.
Remember, it's not pilot in command, merely co-pilot manipulating the controls on landing at night. It's not under the NVFR either, just the circling or approach at the end of an IFR flight. I guess we can assume the use of 5.01A, or holding a multi engine NVFR rating.
References would be great
As a co-pilot, on a multi-crew aircraft (obviously) what are the night recency requirements? In particular T/O and LDG.
I have searched the CAOs and CARs, in particular 5.109 and 5.170 since a co-ey only requires a CPL or ATPL (better). The operation in particular is charter >5700.
Remember, it's not pilot in command, merely co-pilot manipulating the controls on landing at night. It's not under the NVFR either, just the circling or approach at the end of an IFR flight. I guess we can assume the use of 5.01A, or holding a multi engine NVFR rating.
References would be great
The way I understand it goes as follows ....
To give you an example, Wx CAVOK at YPPH, you get radar vectored below LSALT to be established on the ILS with the PAPI and you are given “Cleared ILS runway 24” - no night recency requirement fly the instrument approach down to the runway
However if say they cancel your STAR and you were radar vectored for a left downwind runway 03, and then “Cleared visual approach runway 03” requirement CAO 40.2.1 para 14.2
Example 1 you are conducting instrument approach & visual circling – IFR procedures
Example 2 you are conducting visual approach & visual circuit – Night VFR procedures
To give you an example, Wx CAVOK at YPPH, you get radar vectored below LSALT to be established on the ILS with the PAPI and you are given “Cleared ILS runway 24” - no night recency requirement fly the instrument approach down to the runway
However if say they cancel your STAR and you were radar vectored for a left downwind runway 03, and then “Cleared visual approach runway 03” requirement CAO 40.2.1 para 14.2
Example 1 you are conducting instrument approach & visual circling – IFR procedures
Example 2 you are conducting visual approach & visual circuit – Night VFR procedures
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SWH
I may be wrong - it happens all to frequently! - but clearnances from ATC do not change your category - ie if you are IFR you are IFR, and operate as such throughout the entire flight unless you initiate the change - "changing to vfr".
So I don't think that you are correct when you say that the procedures change with the clearance.
Don't forget that an ATC clearance for a visual approach is merely that - not a change to VFR procedures. ATC use similar words because they convey a meaning that is understood and it is easier to say than "ABC cleared to descend below the lowest safe and ps while you are at it the responsibility for terrain clearance and maintaining the aeroplane within the CTA steps +500 ft has now been effectively transferred to you - don't screw the pooch - contact tower on 120.5 at 5 miles" or words to that effect!
BUT as I say I could be wrong - it would only continue the fine tradition of being completely and utterly wrong!!
I may be wrong - it happens all to frequently! - but clearnances from ATC do not change your category - ie if you are IFR you are IFR, and operate as such throughout the entire flight unless you initiate the change - "changing to vfr".
So I don't think that you are correct when you say that the procedures change with the clearance.
Don't forget that an ATC clearance for a visual approach is merely that - not a change to VFR procedures. ATC use similar words because they convey a meaning that is understood and it is easier to say than "ABC cleared to descend below the lowest safe and ps while you are at it the responsibility for terrain clearance and maintaining the aeroplane within the CTA steps +500 ft has now been effectively transferred to you - don't screw the pooch - contact tower on 120.5 at 5 miles" or words to that effect!
BUT as I say I could be wrong - it would only continue the fine tradition of being completely and utterly wrong!!
Thread Starter
Captain Laptop is correct. I believe from the top of my head ATC will read back IFR cancelled at xxxx if you downgrade to VFR, and then they usually ask if you also want to nominate a SAR time.
Anyway, this confirms what I have thought. Thanks guys. BTW BIK do you work for CASA or were you just really bored
Anyway, this confirms what I have thought. Thanks guys. BTW BIK do you work for CASA or were you just really bored
What I was trying to get across is the procedures you are following to land, not the VF or IF rules.
I.e. you can be IFR by still need to use NVFR procedures, or are you guys trying to say on a CAVOK day an IFR aircraft will follow IFR procedures in say a GAAP ? No you will follow VFR procedures.
CAO 40.2.1 para 14.1 talks about procedures used, not the category of rules you flight planned.
I placed my emphasis in paragraph on the word procedure, not the letter R for rule.
Willing to be educated .....
I.e. you can be IFR by still need to use NVFR procedures, or are you guys trying to say on a CAVOK day an IFR aircraft will follow IFR procedures in say a GAAP ? No you will follow VFR procedures.
CAO 40.2.1 para 14.1 talks about procedures used, not the category of rules you flight planned.
I placed my emphasis in paragraph on the word procedure, not the letter R for rule.
Willing to be educated .....
Last edited by swh; 17th May 2003 at 23:41.
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From what i remember for a copilot there is no required recency however the captain must be current. Sorry no idea where to look just a question I got asked on a renewal once apon a time.
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Co-pilot night recency
All I can say it seems the overhaul of the Aussie CAA rules is long overdue if such a simple question takes such along time and requires so many rule references to answer !!
All recency requirements should be in a "Part 61" Rule, and appropriate to the licence held...the direction I understand CASA is headed .. and not a moment too soon.
All recency requirements should be in a "Part 61" Rule, and appropriate to the licence held...the direction I understand CASA is headed .. and not a moment too soon.
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SWH,
I may have misconstrued what you were saying, but didn't you say that if ATC offered you a visual approach you now had to meet the NVFR recency requirements?
I don't believe that this is the case - I believe that if you are IFR category you need to stick with the IFR rules all the time. I have a CIR with all the bells and whistles, but a NVFR rating that only has a NDB endorsement. I still do ILS's at night in VMC.
As I say I may be wrong, but I don't think that you can mix and match the two.
Even in a GAAP you are still an IFR flight - you don't use VFR procedures - but then it has been about 15 years since I've been in a GAAP (Thank god!!)
I guess the thing is this - do you as a IFR aeroplane in VMC conditions cruise at vfr (+500 ft) levels or do you fly at IFr levels.
To go back to the original question, I don't think that the CO-Pilot actually has to do much at all in terms recency for night. The co-pilot rating doesn't actually have many requirements at all if I remember correctly - never had one though so can't speak with any authority
I may have misconstrued what you were saying, but didn't you say that if ATC offered you a visual approach you now had to meet the NVFR recency requirements?
I don't believe that this is the case - I believe that if you are IFR category you need to stick with the IFR rules all the time. I have a CIR with all the bells and whistles, but a NVFR rating that only has a NDB endorsement. I still do ILS's at night in VMC.
As I say I may be wrong, but I don't think that you can mix and match the two.
Even in a GAAP you are still an IFR flight - you don't use VFR procedures - but then it has been about 15 years since I've been in a GAAP (Thank god!!)
I guess the thing is this - do you as a IFR aeroplane in VMC conditions cruise at vfr (+500 ft) levels or do you fly at IFr levels.
To go back to the original question, I don't think that the CO-Pilot actually has to do much at all in terms recency for night. The co-pilot rating doesn't actually have many requirements at all if I remember correctly - never had one though so can't speak with any authority
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Night time
SWH,
The point to clarify is that if you are a IFR flight you only need to meet the IFR recency. Day or night, as distinct from NVFR were the recency requirements have been stated above.
The other important note is that a visual approach is still an IFR procedure. You haven't changed to VFR because you were issued a visual approach. Sooner or later the pilot must visually fly to land the plane (until our Baron's are fitted with autoland
) Point is it's still IFR 30nm out or in the circling area.
88b
The point to clarify is that if you are a IFR flight you only need to meet the IFR recency. Day or night, as distinct from NVFR were the recency requirements have been stated above.
The other important note is that a visual approach is still an IFR procedure. You haven't changed to VFR because you were issued a visual approach. Sooner or later the pilot must visually fly to land the plane (until our Baron's are fitted with autoland
) Point is it's still IFR 30nm out or in the circling area.88b
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There are no copilot requirements for night recency for charter above 5700kg.
FYI, there are no copilot requirements for night recency in a B747 in RPT either. The copilot only need satisfy CAO 40.1.5 Conditions of ATPL, the two principal conditions being
(a) FLOWN within the last 35 days
(b) One takeoff and landing (day or night) within the last 70 days.
see paras 11.5 and 11.6
NZER:-
All I can say it seems the overhaul of the Aussie CAA rules is long overdue if such a simple question takes such along time and requires so many rule references to answer !!
The rules are a bit of a mixup, but it has to be said that few pilots in Aussie GA hit the books as hard as most overseas compatriots seem to. Many only look at them when a renewal or check ride is looming.
FYI, there are no copilot requirements for night recency in a B747 in RPT either. The copilot only need satisfy CAO 40.1.5 Conditions of ATPL, the two principal conditions being
(a) FLOWN within the last 35 days
(b) One takeoff and landing (day or night) within the last 70 days.
see paras 11.5 and 11.6
NZER:-
All I can say it seems the overhaul of the Aussie CAA rules is long overdue if such a simple question takes such along time and requires so many rule references to answer !!
The rules are a bit of a mixup, but it has to be said that few pilots in Aussie GA hit the books as hard as most overseas compatriots seem to. Many only look at them when a renewal or check ride is looming.
