200 hr TT instructors, A waste of space?
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Knew this bloke once who used instructing to get the hours to get to the airlines.
Funny thing was, he said at the time,
" I'm at 1500 hours now. I have not touched the controls since the 400 hour mark".
On the basis of this, why does instructing count towards the PIC time that it does?
Seems to me lots of time looking out the window and not much control manipulation, which is what counts early on.
Thoughts anyone?
Funny thing was, he said at the time,
" I'm at 1500 hours now. I have not touched the controls since the 400 hour mark".
On the basis of this, why does instructing count towards the PIC time that it does?
Seems to me lots of time looking out the window and not much control manipulation, which is what counts early on.
Thoughts anyone?
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Hi all!
This is a good thread, lots of different opinions and a couple of valid questions.
Currently i am a senior grade 2 and every day learning something new from my students. Whilst i do not get the stick time i would like to i feel that at this stage for me it is more about mental self development.
By the time you have reached a couple of hundred hours it is a fair generalisation that you know how to manipulate the controls to a good standard, not to say that you would be the best you can be in the handling stakes but the rate of handling development declines quite significantly with the monotony associated with the continuous flying of singles.
I would hope that all instructors maintain the mental awareness of being at least three steps ahead of the student and the aircraft, this is what makes those with more hours attractive to prospective employers. Whilst handling plays a role in our careers, i feel that a great deal of the emphasis should be on the ability to think commercially.
I have always said to my students that a PPL is a stepping stone for a prospective career pilot to go a learn something and that a CPL is consolidation and expansion on skills already learned but the main factor is a shift in the piloting state of mind.
I think instructing is a very good starting point for those who want a stepping stone into that which is bigger and better. Politics can be a killer, depending on the company and their attitte towards staff, however, try not to get sucked in.
I agree with Audi, certainly should be more supervision of the juniors in early stages and the comments about enthusiasm are right on. There is no place for lack of enthusiasm from an instructor. Students emulate and are led by example.
Now everyone may agree that motives are rarely unselfish and i know that we would all like to change the industry for the better, we can!, by instilling in our students that they represent the future in aviation and they can make a difference, just as we can.
Personally i feel that after 1000hrs it is more about quality of flying than quantity of flying so dont stand in the one spot for too long or your feet will go to sleep. Basically, instructing is what you make of it, albeit unfortunate that there is not $$ incentive to make a career of it.
My two cents. Safe flying to all!
Regards. Ratter
This is a good thread, lots of different opinions and a couple of valid questions.
Currently i am a senior grade 2 and every day learning something new from my students. Whilst i do not get the stick time i would like to i feel that at this stage for me it is more about mental self development.
By the time you have reached a couple of hundred hours it is a fair generalisation that you know how to manipulate the controls to a good standard, not to say that you would be the best you can be in the handling stakes but the rate of handling development declines quite significantly with the monotony associated with the continuous flying of singles.
I would hope that all instructors maintain the mental awareness of being at least three steps ahead of the student and the aircraft, this is what makes those with more hours attractive to prospective employers. Whilst handling plays a role in our careers, i feel that a great deal of the emphasis should be on the ability to think commercially.
I have always said to my students that a PPL is a stepping stone for a prospective career pilot to go a learn something and that a CPL is consolidation and expansion on skills already learned but the main factor is a shift in the piloting state of mind.
I think instructing is a very good starting point for those who want a stepping stone into that which is bigger and better. Politics can be a killer, depending on the company and their attitte towards staff, however, try not to get sucked in.
I agree with Audi, certainly should be more supervision of the juniors in early stages and the comments about enthusiasm are right on. There is no place for lack of enthusiasm from an instructor. Students emulate and are led by example.
Now everyone may agree that motives are rarely unselfish and i know that we would all like to change the industry for the better, we can!, by instilling in our students that they represent the future in aviation and they can make a difference, just as we can.
Personally i feel that after 1000hrs it is more about quality of flying than quantity of flying so dont stand in the one spot for too long or your feet will go to sleep. Basically, instructing is what you make of it, albeit unfortunate that there is not $$ incentive to make a career of it.
My two cents. Safe flying to all!
Regards. Ratter
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I don't see too many issues with experienced but unpaid PPL instructors, who do not instruct beyond PPL. (Let's face it, most instructors are virtually unpaid in any case.) There is no-one more committed and enthusiastic than a keen and knowledgeable 'amateur', who happens to hold an instructor's rating. One of the problems with this industry stems from when it went all 'formal and professional'. Whilst many of you guys look really great in your uniforms and that is clearly appropriate if you are working on a Qantas contact, it might be a a bit of a put-off to those who just want a PPL and to be part of an informal, friendly and fun organisation. I would even go so far as to suggest that might be one reason why the industry is not focussed on or attacting some of the PPL type business it used to.
Currawong, being in command has more to do with thinking & managing the flight to achieve the goal(s) safely, legally & efficiently, than mere poling the aeroplane around the sky.
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Perhaps flight schools should look at making all students complete a single pilot multi engine instrument rating, all ATPL subjects and maybe even a BGT prior to instructing.
This will give them a more in depth knowledge of aviation as well as increased situational awareness.
The flight school I instructed at has now taken up the idea of all new instructors only teach PPL'S then have regular flight checks with the CFI. They must have a Night instuctor and Aerobatic instructor endorsements prior to moving into any other area of flight training.
Maybe something like this should be looked into. Short term it costs you a little more but you will need to do it eventually.
This will give them a more in depth knowledge of aviation as well as increased situational awareness.
The flight school I instructed at has now taken up the idea of all new instructors only teach PPL'S then have regular flight checks with the CFI. They must have a Night instuctor and Aerobatic instructor endorsements prior to moving into any other area of flight training.
Maybe something like this should be looked into. Short term it costs you a little more but you will need to do it eventually.
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Tinstaafl,
I agree,
But would suggest thinking & managing the flight to achieve the goal(s) safely, legally & efficiently
AND
poling the aircraft around the sky were the whole point.
If you cannot do BOTH, to a high standard, it is bound to all come unstuck at some point.
I agree,
But would suggest thinking & managing the flight to achieve the goal(s) safely, legally & efficiently
AND
poling the aircraft around the sky were the whole point.
If you cannot do BOTH, to a high standard, it is bound to all come unstuck at some point.
Instuctors do touch the controls. A demo here, a demo there to give the student something to model. Just not on all flights. An instructor needs to be able to give an accurate demo after often extended periods/many flights of not controlling the a/c. That requires a certain degree of skill.
Steering the a/c is the simple part of the job.
Steering the a/c is the simple part of the job.
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Tinstaafl,
I agree entirely. But that is my point. Just logging the demo part is not what I am suggesting either.
The bloke on my first post this thread was technically not even doing his 3 take offs/landings every 90 days...
I believe if you are going to log time to watch someone else fly then perhaps a logbook regime similar to the co-pilot system might be more appropriate.
Do not get me wrong - Instructors are a vital part of the aviation community, sometimes undervalued (in more ways than one) in my opinion. Requiring a high degree of skill.
Steering is the easy part. Although we might have trouble selling that to say the crew at Gimli, for example.
I agree entirely. But that is my point. Just logging the demo part is not what I am suggesting either.
The bloke on my first post this thread was technically not even doing his 3 take offs/landings every 90 days...
I believe if you are going to log time to watch someone else fly then perhaps a logbook regime similar to the co-pilot system might be more appropriate.
Do not get me wrong - Instructors are a vital part of the aviation community, sometimes undervalued (in more ways than one) in my opinion. Requiring a high degree of skill.
Steering is the easy part. Although we might have trouble selling that to say the crew at Gimli, for example.
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I suppose currawong wants a logbook system where we record "hands on" time and "brain on" time separately. But then again that might be a real problem for some. I also suppose that currawong does not log IF time when s/he watches the autopilot fly in cloud??? The autopilot is far more predictable than the student and easier to monitor.
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Good point Fly.
Please note - This is not a wind up
I am not bagging instructors.
How would you rate the bloke in my first post? Is this normal? I mean I think he was straight up when he said it. If it is the norm then I have learnt something.
Please note - This is not a wind up
I am not bagging instructors.
How would you rate the bloke in my first post? Is this normal? I mean I think he was straight up when he said it. If it is the norm then I have learnt something.
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I don't want to get into a 'who's better than who' slanging match, and I know there are vast differences between military and GA operations, however the RAAF has tried taking guys straight off pilot's course and then onto instructor's course and back to the schools and it just did not work.
The guys selected all came off the top of their pilots course and went onto fighters after their stint of instructing, but the policy was dropped.
Nowadays the RAAF only takes second tour pilots from the squadrons with at least 350 captain hours,to do a 6 month Instructor course at East Sale prior to going to Tamworth or Pearce.
Cheers
The guys selected all came off the top of their pilots course and went onto fighters after their stint of instructing, but the policy was dropped.
Nowadays the RAAF only takes second tour pilots from the squadrons with at least 350 captain hours,to do a 6 month Instructor course at East Sale prior to going to Tamworth or Pearce.
Cheers
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currawong, do you really believe that bloke did not touch the controls for 900 hours. If it was true, he should give back the money. No it is not normal. However Hangar talk and tall stories are normal. Geez I just saw a pig fly past my window. If we used that sort of logic, the 200 hour Instructor would be more valuable than the 2000 or 20000 hour instructor, because s/he has more hands on time. Lots of hours in the logbook means - lots of opportunity to make mistakes. One definition of experience is "recognising a mistake when it happens the second time". You can do that much better when the brain is on rather than just the hands on. And if one manages to have hands and brain on at the same time, one might become a pilot one day and not just a aeroplane driver. Remember, God gave us several organs, but only enough blood to think with one at a time.
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Thanks Fly.
You can see how it got me thinking. 1000 hrs of less than occasional demos does sound strange. Maybe it was a tall story.
Did not hold him back though - last heard of at Cathay.
You can see how it got me thinking. 1000 hrs of less than occasional demos does sound strange. Maybe it was a tall story.
Did not hold him back though - last heard of at Cathay.
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CURRAWONG
I guess Robair is a lot like me, visiting this web-site hoping to find some interesting rumours to give hope in a difficult and sometimes unrewarding career path.
I am sure he is looking for some positive reinforcement as to why he even got involved in this industry.
When he comes across people of your ilk, I am sure he joins the end of a long queue who realise that there are a lot of w@nkers in aviation.
I guess Robair is a lot like me, visiting this web-site hoping to find some interesting rumours to give hope in a difficult and sometimes unrewarding career path.
I am sure he is looking for some positive reinforcement as to why he even got involved in this industry.
When he comes across people of your ilk, I am sure he joins the end of a long queue who realise that there are a lot of w@nkers in aviation.
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my reply currawong
Yes just like next generation says I visit this site looking for good aviation things but all I see is "proffesionals"(and I use the term loosley) bitching about each other.
What happened to the brother hood of aviation?
Looks like I have a freind next generation?
What happened to the brother hood of aviation?
Looks like I have a freind next generation?
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Read the posts fellas
1/ I am not knocking anyone (I say again)
2/ I am not back stabbing anyone
3/ I am not bitching about anyone
4/ You want positive reinforcement - was the Cathay part not good enough for you?
5/ I came to this thread with a genuine question albeit slightly off the original topic. I got a number of helpful answers that left me considerably better informed than when I arrived. Thanks to all that helped.
6/ For the record I have no problem with 200 hr instructors
7/ It is the career path I recommend for anyone aiming for the airlines
If this position has upset anyone, they have an apology.
2/ I am not back stabbing anyone
3/ I am not bitching about anyone
4/ You want positive reinforcement - was the Cathay part not good enough for you?
5/ I came to this thread with a genuine question albeit slightly off the original topic. I got a number of helpful answers that left me considerably better informed than when I arrived. Thanks to all that helped.
6/ For the record I have no problem with 200 hr instructors
7/ It is the career path I recommend for anyone aiming for the airlines
If this position has upset anyone, they have an apology.
200 hrs????? Luxury!!!
In his autobiography, Flying Fury, James McCudden VC etc recounts how he was posted as an instructor after completing his flying training in 1916. Total time 8 (yes 8) hours.
The book was published shortly after his death in 1918 with the editor adding a footnote to the effect that such inexperience would not allow a pilot to be an instructor 'in these modern days'. No, said the editor, instructors would now have at least 24 hours total time before being set loose on unsuspecting students.
OK, so there was at the time a certain lack of focus on safety but the aircraft involved were also a bit more difficult to fly than your average spam can.
Quality???? One of his students was "Mick" Mannock, who went on to become the highest scoring Allied pilot of the War.
Other than the fact that current basic training aircraft are safer and more straightforward than the 1916 equivalents and there's (usually) no-one shooting at you these days, what else has changed in a practical sense to require a 2500% increase in experience for basic GA instructors?
In his autobiography, Flying Fury, James McCudden VC etc recounts how he was posted as an instructor after completing his flying training in 1916. Total time 8 (yes 8) hours.
The book was published shortly after his death in 1918 with the editor adding a footnote to the effect that such inexperience would not allow a pilot to be an instructor 'in these modern days'. No, said the editor, instructors would now have at least 24 hours total time before being set loose on unsuspecting students.
OK, so there was at the time a certain lack of focus on safety but the aircraft involved were also a bit more difficult to fly than your average spam can.
Quality???? One of his students was "Mick" Mannock, who went on to become the highest scoring Allied pilot of the War.
Other than the fact that current basic training aircraft are safer and more straightforward than the 1916 equivalents and there's (usually) no-one shooting at you these days, what else has changed in a practical sense to require a 2500% increase in experience for basic GA instructors?
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I think too much emphasis is placed on hour numbers. I have had instructors with thousands of hours which have been a "waste of money", and other very keen and freshly skilled "low hour" ones. maybe it all comes down to teaching skill, and personality.
Why some countries like the one Im in now require 500 hours before instructing? Who made this up and under what logic? If the rate of accidents rises up until the 1000 hour mark, why not requre more than 1000 hours then?
I remember when I was a 200 hour instructor my proficiency was greater than now (to teach, that is). So...it all depends...i beleive.
Why some countries like the one Im in now require 500 hours before instructing? Who made this up and under what logic? If the rate of accidents rises up until the 1000 hour mark, why not requre more than 1000 hours then?
I remember when I was a 200 hour instructor my proficiency was greater than now (to teach, that is). So...it all depends...i beleive.
