Bandits - all the fashion?
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Bandits - all the fashion?
Embraer EMB 110 Bandeirante. I was wondering if any of you truly knowledgable types out there could take me through the pros and the cons of using this venerable aircraft type with a view to making money on a 100-200nm sector in Oz. Thanks in pounds in advance!
If a Bandit is a "venerable aircraft type", what do you call the significantly older Cessna 400/Piper PA31 aircraft type?
Great aircraft. Profitably operated 13 or 14 Bandits in northern climes!
Great aircraft. Profitably operated 13 or 14 Bandits in northern climes!
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Bandits
Thanks Torres, though I was not trying to make the comparison. Perhaps you could call the c400/pa31 "even more venerable" if you like (all aluminium GA aircraft are "venerable" these days)! What I would like to know is what people do or don't like about the E110!
Grandpa Aerotart
E110;
Flew in excess of 1000 hrs SP IFR RPT in those of which Torres fondly refers to in the 'northern climes'
Lovely stable aircraft to fly IFR,
210 TAS/ 19 seats / 600lbs per hour (from memory)
Very reliable PT6-34s
Only drama might be that fitment of EGPWS is likely to be problematic (read hugely expensive) in such an old airframe. From what I've heard recently they have effectively become a 9 seater since the requirement for EGPWS on all 10 + Pax seaters CHTR or RPT irrespective of MTOW.
Shame really
Chuck.
Flew in excess of 1000 hrs SP IFR RPT in those of which Torres fondly refers to in the 'northern climes'
Lovely stable aircraft to fly IFR,
210 TAS/ 19 seats / 600lbs per hour (from memory)
Very reliable PT6-34s
Only drama might be that fitment of EGPWS is likely to be problematic (read hugely expensive) in such an old airframe. From what I've heard recently they have effectively become a 9 seater since the requirement for EGPWS on all 10 + Pax seaters CHTR or RPT irrespective of MTOW.
Shame really
Chuck.
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Thanx Chuck. EGPWS aside (Its a big consideration) you mention 19 seats. From my calcs 19 seats at an av pax wt of 84 kg leaves you with 1 1/2 hrs of fuel total - before the bags go on! I'm interested in how you used to deal with this in the very ordinary weather one often finds in the "northern climes"! Obviously on good wx days 19 seats can make a S**tload of money for the operator - but what do you do with seats sold and all the holding goes on?
Grandpa Aerotart
I believe the standard retort from Talair Ops (Guyboi) was "There's your load...how much fuel you take is your business"
The average weight of a Papua New Guinean is considerably less than 84kg too...I cannot remember what standard weight we used at Talair in those days...Torres??
Moresby - Tububil was around 2 hours and the nearest 'suitable' alternate was Daru...out of the question...we may have had a DCA 'wink, wink, nod, nod' approval to use Kiunga which was very close...out of the hills anyway. Moresby-Mendi was about 1.5 hours and we were required to carry a coastal alternate (when the LSALT is 17000'(no IAL procedures in the Highlands) there is always, in the tropics, more than 4/8th below it), which was Madang but 'never' went further than Mount Hagen, which was less than 1/2 way to Madang.
When you knew the countryside as well as we did, most of us had 3-5000hrs PNG time before gracing the LHS of the Bandit, it was a safe/practical operation...CASA would shudder though in these 'enlightened' times.
I would suggest that the Bandit has seen her day...EGPWS has, I believe, reduced them to a 9 seater even with 2 pilots...a completely rediculous situation in Australia with it's generally great weather and relative lack of terrain worthy of the description 'mountains'. I note also that Cessna's big single may be granted an exclusion from the requirement for EGPWS if operated by two crew...one would tend to question why a single engined aircraft, ignoring ASEPTA, can be given such immunity when a proven turbine ME aircraft apparently cannot be??
Chuck.
The average weight of a Papua New Guinean is considerably less than 84kg too...I cannot remember what standard weight we used at Talair in those days...Torres??
Moresby - Tububil was around 2 hours and the nearest 'suitable' alternate was Daru...out of the question...we may have had a DCA 'wink, wink, nod, nod' approval to use Kiunga which was very close...out of the hills anyway. Moresby-Mendi was about 1.5 hours and we were required to carry a coastal alternate (when the LSALT is 17000'(no IAL procedures in the Highlands) there is always, in the tropics, more than 4/8th below it
), which was Madang but 'never' went further than Mount Hagen, which was less than 1/2 way to Madang.When you knew the countryside as well as we did, most of us had 3-5000hrs PNG time before gracing the LHS of the Bandit, it was a safe/practical operation...CASA would shudder though in these 'enlightened' times.
I would suggest that the Bandit has seen her day...EGPWS has, I believe, reduced them to a 9 seater even with 2 pilots...a completely rediculous situation in Australia with it's generally great weather and relative lack of terrain worthy of the description 'mountains'. I note also that Cessna's big single may be granted an exclusion from the requirement for EGPWS if operated by two crew...one would tend to question why a single engined aircraft, ignoring ASEPTA, can be given such immunity when a proven turbine ME aircraft apparently cannot be??
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 12th Apr 2003 at 20:56.
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In the past the Bandit was a 18-19 seat aircraft but not anymore. Remember when Eastern and Hazelton were operating them they were only flying 30-90 min sectors and the standard pax weight was 77kg.
A few years ago I flew Bandits for a charter company and we really pushed the Bandit to the limit. Generally we found 12-13 pax (plus bags) worked well, that allowed us to do 2- 2 1/2 sectors. In the 3 years I flew for this company the Bandit was very reliable, only twice did we have a delay due to the aircraft, and both delays were starter/gen problems.
A few years latter I flew the Bandit again, this time for a regional airline. One of the sectors was 220nm and the airline limited it to 13 seats on that sector to allow for bags plus a bit of extra fuel.
Most of the the Bandits on the market in OZ (including the 8 at MCY) have the 15 seat (feel seats) which a great improvement on the old 18-19 seat 1 + 2 seats. This seats have arm rests plus tray tables.
With regard the EGPWS, the Bandits currently flying in OZ have been fitted with GPWS, this is currently the only STC available for the Bandit. From what CASA told our company, if no STC becomes available for EGPWS, then the GPWS will be ok and they will issue another dispo(like they currently have) for another 2 years. But with CASA you just don't know.
For flight planning we used 190-200 KTAS and 600 pph.
In summary the Bandit is a simple reliable aircraft that is generally well liked by those who have flown them. Rows 1 and 2 can be noisy for the passengers.
For a 19 seat aircraft they make a good 15 seat aircraft. For a 15 seat aircraft they make a very good 12-13 seat aircraft.
A few years ago I flew Bandits for a charter company and we really pushed the Bandit to the limit. Generally we found 12-13 pax (plus bags) worked well, that allowed us to do 2- 2 1/2 sectors. In the 3 years I flew for this company the Bandit was very reliable, only twice did we have a delay due to the aircraft, and both delays were starter/gen problems.
A few years latter I flew the Bandit again, this time for a regional airline. One of the sectors was 220nm and the airline limited it to 13 seats on that sector to allow for bags plus a bit of extra fuel.
Most of the the Bandits on the market in OZ (including the 8 at MCY) have the 15 seat (feel seats) which a great improvement on the old 18-19 seat 1 + 2 seats. This seats have arm rests plus tray tables.
With regard the EGPWS, the Bandits currently flying in OZ have been fitted with GPWS, this is currently the only STC available for the Bandit. From what CASA told our company, if no STC becomes available for EGPWS, then the GPWS will be ok and they will issue another dispo(like they currently have) for another 2 years. But with CASA you just don't know.
For flight planning we used 190-200 KTAS and 600 pph.
In summary the Bandit is a simple reliable aircraft that is generally well liked by those who have flown them. Rows 1 and 2 can be noisy for the passengers.
For a 19 seat aircraft they make a good 15 seat aircraft. For a 15 seat aircraft they make a very good 12-13 seat aircraft.
In their day, a great aircraft. We got the first one, brand new, in November 1975 and I seem to recall the price was around US$750,000 - 10% down, balance at a low interest rate on manufacturers finance thru the Banco de Brazil. You couldn't buy a new donk for that price today!
Bad points: Noisy and later, a number of expensive AD's including undercarriage and tail plane. Bit underpowered in the tropics if a donk quit. (Interestingly, the Brasilian military uperated them at 14,000 pounds, with tip tanks.) Prone to burn if a pilot tried to take off with the hand brake on! Also, taxiing over ground power units usually resulted in the prop and engine coming off second best.
Good points: A great cash cow, simple, ultra reliable with arguably the best PT6 ever built. (Interestingly, the Caravan's -114 is a -34 derivative.) The P2's were easy loading with the large rear door. "Light" aircraft, single pilot, one hour sector (190 nm) around 1,450 kg payload.
Chuck, don't want to raise the subject of payloads on the grounds certain past colleagues could be held liable! But I did hear about over 2,000 kg making the POM/TBL sector.
I don't recall standard pax weights in PNG, probably around 65 kg. It wasn't the pax weight that was the worry - it was their bloody cargo, pigs, etc etc. The early Bandits (particularly the P1's) were around 3,650 kg M/T, but later "grew" far heavier.
With present day limitations (GPWS etc etc) and reduced air fares and charter rates they are probably not economically viable and certainly would not be viable limited to 9 to 13 seats. In 1984 we were getting over Aus$1,400 per hour on charter.
Bad points: Noisy and later, a number of expensive AD's including undercarriage and tail plane. Bit underpowered in the tropics if a donk quit. (Interestingly, the Brasilian military uperated them at 14,000 pounds, with tip tanks.) Prone to burn if a pilot tried to take off with the hand brake on! Also, taxiing over ground power units usually resulted in the prop and engine coming off second best.
Good points: A great cash cow, simple, ultra reliable with arguably the best PT6 ever built. (Interestingly, the Caravan's -114 is a -34 derivative.) The P2's were easy loading with the large rear door. "Light" aircraft, single pilot, one hour sector (190 nm) around 1,450 kg payload.
Chuck, don't want to raise the subject of payloads on the grounds certain past colleagues could be held liable! But I did hear about over 2,000 kg making the POM/TBL sector.
I don't recall standard pax weights in PNG, probably around 65 kg. It wasn't the pax weight that was the worry - it was their bloody cargo, pigs, etc etc. The early Bandits (particularly the P1's) were around 3,650 kg M/T, but later "grew" far heavier.
With present day limitations (GPWS etc etc) and reduced air fares and charter rates they are probably not economically viable and certainly would not be viable limited to 9 to 13 seats. In 1984 we were getting over Aus$1,400 per hour on charter.
Torres old son, the tropics must be affecting your memory.........
The first Bandit (P2-RDN) arrived in November 1978 not 1975. It served GV particularly well, and I personally did just on 1,000 hours in that particular machine. It still survives, although is definitely showing its age a little bit nowadays. In fact I travelled in it as a passenger not too long ago...........
As for the loads carried, I think a certain Ukranian gentleman still holds the world record in that department!
The first Bandit (P2-RDN) arrived in November 1978 not 1975. It served GV particularly well, and I personally did just on 1,000 hours in that particular machine. It still survives, although is definitely showing its age a little bit nowadays. In fact I travelled in it as a passenger not too long ago...........
As for the loads carried, I think a certain Ukranian gentleman still holds the world record in that department!
Chimbu. Ooops. Yes, 1978 is correct. And it was P2-RDN. Where is it now, current rego? Don't know the Ukrainian (or do you mean Austrian?) but I recall a double load on P2-RDM out of POM. And 32 POB on a Bandit out of Rabaul. And the "in flight sales" of watches and pens..........
HA. Correct. I would think the current Bandit charter rate should be over $2,000 per hour. But I'll bet it's not! In 1989 I was getting $400 per hour for a B58 and $650 per hour for a C402 in Australia. From memory we were getting $650 per hour for a C402 in PNG in 1984.
HA. Correct. I would think the current Bandit charter rate should be over $2,000 per hour. But I'll bet it's not! In 1989 I was getting $400 per hour for a B58 and $650 per hour for a C402 in Australia. From memory we were getting $650 per hour for a C402 in PNG in 1984.
How about a B200 for about $1450 / hour or less in 2003!!!
Torres..............it was the bloke responsible for the high POB count out of Rabaul...............dangerous sort of character. Both he and what was P2-RDN now reside in the same country, but alas have not been re-united.
I don't believe the Austrian (RIP) ever flew the Bandeirante.
As for the "in flight sales of watches and pens", I believe Trader is now dropping yahoo splats out of a porter and a 185 from Ardmore NZ.
I don't believe the Austrian (RIP) ever flew the Bandeirante.
As for the "in flight sales of watches and pens", I believe Trader is now dropping yahoo splats out of a porter and a 185 from Ardmore NZ.
