AOPA the way forward, A Woomera perspective
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Fellow Pruners and AOPA members,
I have submitted the following letter to the editor of the AOPA magazine for publication in the next edition. It has also been sent to all present board members, seeking a response. As well as a long time pilot and safety manager, I have been involved in GA all my flying career. It sadens me somewhat to see AOPA going down the slide with no sandpit at the bottom! If we are to have a stong association, there must be full and open discussion on such issues. As the AOPA web forum is closed there is no alternative but to place such matters in whatever other forums that are available and I believe Woomera and the team at pprune should be thanked for providing this facility and supporting the survival of AOPA.
Dear AOPA Board Members.
As a member since the mid '60's I am now more than ever concerned as to the future direction and viability of the Association.
General Aviation is the worst it has ever been, flying training standards are in a similar position and the only organization that has the potential to represent the interests of those in GA is balancing on the brink of survival. For the first time in my aviation career, I am seeing people give flying away, not because of cost, the long time usual reason, but because it has just got all too hard and the politics have spoilt what was once "fun". Not only has CASA has contributed to this, but the bickering within AOPA has played a part as well. Ten years ago, AOPA had over ten thousand members and a survey indicated that the potential membership was between twelve and fifteen thousand. What do we have now? 4000 members with a potential of 6 or perhaps 8 thousand members?? Back then, many professional pilots were members having joined when they were in GA. Now you can't see many of them for dust as they are too embarrassed to even say they are a member!!
The respectability of the Association has never been worse and its relationship with those that it must work with have at times seemed more like a war! A great way to achieve things - not!
I am not prepared to sit by and watch this all happen. I am not, like many many others over the past eight years prepared to toss my membership in as a result of the frustration so caused. Bill Pike has invited me to participate in matters associated with safety which I would be happy to do, but not if I have to deal with a board that lacks cohesion, leadership and direction.
I understand that there has been a suggestion that ALL board members stand down and allow the membership to decide the full composition of the board from the AGM. For reasons that I am not privy to it seems that there is disagreement within the board on this proposal. However I urge you all to reconsider this proposal in order to provide the Association with the kick-start it now urgently needs. Now, at more than any time in the history of the Association, it is essential that the board work together in order to achieve what the members expect. If this cannot be achieved, then sadly the future of the Association looks very bleak. There is absolutely no room for inflated ego's or for a board member that does not place the Association first in all matters and to work as part of a team to achieve its collective objectives. The board must speak with one voice, and that must be the Chairman or his nominee. There is no room for those that like to do their own thing. The damage often caused is usually beyond fixing.
My inquiries suggest that many members have not renewed of late because they are sick of the bickering and bunkum that has emanated from the Board over the past few years. This has been no way to run what was once a respected representative association that once boasted over ten thousand members and asserts of three quarters of a million dollars.
The operation of the board must be beyond reproach in all matters. It must be open to scrutiny by the membership and the membership must be kept fully informed on all issues - even the bad ones.
The future of AOPA is before us.
I invite members to send me their proxy for the AGM if they want to support a responsible board.
Doug Stott
AOPA #7368
Email: [email protected]
Fax: 03-5021 2628
As Woomera has said, we should all play our part to ensure that AOPA continues to play the role it was established for. Even non-members have that responsibility, because without AOPA we will all be worse off.
cheers
Doug
I have submitted the following letter to the editor of the AOPA magazine for publication in the next edition. It has also been sent to all present board members, seeking a response. As well as a long time pilot and safety manager, I have been involved in GA all my flying career. It sadens me somewhat to see AOPA going down the slide with no sandpit at the bottom! If we are to have a stong association, there must be full and open discussion on such issues. As the AOPA web forum is closed there is no alternative but to place such matters in whatever other forums that are available and I believe Woomera and the team at pprune should be thanked for providing this facility and supporting the survival of AOPA.
Dear AOPA Board Members.
As a member since the mid '60's I am now more than ever concerned as to the future direction and viability of the Association.
General Aviation is the worst it has ever been, flying training standards are in a similar position and the only organization that has the potential to represent the interests of those in GA is balancing on the brink of survival. For the first time in my aviation career, I am seeing people give flying away, not because of cost, the long time usual reason, but because it has just got all too hard and the politics have spoilt what was once "fun". Not only has CASA has contributed to this, but the bickering within AOPA has played a part as well. Ten years ago, AOPA had over ten thousand members and a survey indicated that the potential membership was between twelve and fifteen thousand. What do we have now? 4000 members with a potential of 6 or perhaps 8 thousand members?? Back then, many professional pilots were members having joined when they were in GA. Now you can't see many of them for dust as they are too embarrassed to even say they are a member!!
The respectability of the Association has never been worse and its relationship with those that it must work with have at times seemed more like a war! A great way to achieve things - not!
I am not prepared to sit by and watch this all happen. I am not, like many many others over the past eight years prepared to toss my membership in as a result of the frustration so caused. Bill Pike has invited me to participate in matters associated with safety which I would be happy to do, but not if I have to deal with a board that lacks cohesion, leadership and direction.
I understand that there has been a suggestion that ALL board members stand down and allow the membership to decide the full composition of the board from the AGM. For reasons that I am not privy to it seems that there is disagreement within the board on this proposal. However I urge you all to reconsider this proposal in order to provide the Association with the kick-start it now urgently needs. Now, at more than any time in the history of the Association, it is essential that the board work together in order to achieve what the members expect. If this cannot be achieved, then sadly the future of the Association looks very bleak. There is absolutely no room for inflated ego's or for a board member that does not place the Association first in all matters and to work as part of a team to achieve its collective objectives. The board must speak with one voice, and that must be the Chairman or his nominee. There is no room for those that like to do their own thing. The damage often caused is usually beyond fixing.
My inquiries suggest that many members have not renewed of late because they are sick of the bickering and bunkum that has emanated from the Board over the past few years. This has been no way to run what was once a respected representative association that once boasted over ten thousand members and asserts of three quarters of a million dollars.
The operation of the board must be beyond reproach in all matters. It must be open to scrutiny by the membership and the membership must be kept fully informed on all issues - even the bad ones.
The future of AOPA is before us.
I invite members to send me their proxy for the AGM if they want to support a responsible board.
Doug Stott
AOPA #7368
Email: [email protected]
Fax: 03-5021 2628
As Woomera has said, we should all play our part to ensure that AOPA continues to play the role it was established for. Even non-members have that responsibility, because without AOPA we will all be worse off.
cheers
Doug
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arrogance and humbuggary
I have just found out that despite pleas from Marjorie Pagani, Bill Pike and Chris McKeown, Messrs Hamilton and Lyon are refusing to stand for election.
In my time on the Board I formed the view that Bill Hamilton has, in my view, used the organisation for personal prestige and by his comments, manner and absolute refusal to consult the Board, has become a liability.
I note also that when John Lyon contested an election (the one where I was returned) he came a distant last. This gives me confidence in the members.
All bar these two will stand. So I shall renominate as well. I feel a Board, led by Pagani, with Pike, Kelly, Lawford and McKeown would be a breath of fresh air for GA and a formidable (yet respectful) arbiter to CASA.
We may also have a good candidate from WA as well, but he can announce who he is
Oh, and my faith in Chris McKeown is rewarded. He has, I am advised, told Mr Hamilton what's what.
AK
In my time on the Board I formed the view that Bill Hamilton has, in my view, used the organisation for personal prestige and by his comments, manner and absolute refusal to consult the Board, has become a liability.
I note also that when John Lyon contested an election (the one where I was returned) he came a distant last. This gives me confidence in the members.
All bar these two will stand. So I shall renominate as well. I feel a Board, led by Pagani, with Pike, Kelly, Lawford and McKeown would be a breath of fresh air for GA and a formidable (yet respectful) arbiter to CASA.
We may also have a good candidate from WA as well, but he can announce who he is
Oh, and my faith in Chris McKeown is rewarded. He has, I am advised, told Mr Hamilton what's what.
AK
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Thanks Doug, spot on and is fully supported from here.
On the matter of the withdrawn posts that are now back.
We are not sure what sort of silly game or agenda is being played here, other than we are certain that it is NOT in the best interests of AOPA and therefore will NOT be supported by us.
It goes like this.
The two posts were withdrawn, routinely, in response to the threat of litigation from an individual who purported and asserted certain "alleged facts" in support of his argument that certain persons were being defamed.
Mistake;
PPRuNe is not naive (= "foolishly credulous") enough to take any of such matters at face value or simply because they have been made.
In case there are those who haven't already worked it out, PPRuNe enjoys a very broad and diverse readership such that there is very, very little any one can get away with in the manner of disingenuousness or just plain old fashioned attempts at manipulation by others.
To save time for some in looking it up;
disingenuousness n
insincere, false, tricky, devious, deceitful, underhanded, underhand, guileful, double-dealing, two-faced, duplicitous, hypocritical, calculating, designing, colloq. shifty.
I am constantly amazed at how rapid is the defrocking here of dubious or dodgy stuff posted here, that I at first thought sounded credible.
However.
A check, and be warned we do so in ALL cases, of the main “alleged and asserted facts” with others, reveals that in fact the opposite could be so, or at the very least were an dodgy construction thereof.
Further it was alleged, that the information contained or “asserted” was “fed” to the individual whom does not now hold an executive position, allegedly from a senior source who does, to support the alleged senior sources “position”.
It was on the basis of this information that the posts were returned.
The “rights or wrongs”, if there exists such a thing, of the sources, or anyone’s “position” is not for PPRuNe to decide, if indeed we were interested in doing so, that decision, rightly and can only belong to the membership of AOPA, who, when apprised of the “actual facts”, whatever they might be, in the appropriate manner by the appropriate persons, can and will make their judgement at the ballot box.
We will just not be party to attempts at manipulation.
We are only the conduit for the discussion by interested parties of whatever matters are germane to the issues.
We will however fight for the right for all to contribute and will be resistant to the efforts of anyone to turn off the lights being shone into places they would rather not be.
We will support the genuine and constructive efforts of anyone trying to get AOPA upright again and that includes the senior source referred to above, who has the same access to this forum on the same conditions as anybody else to state and defend their case.
Lets us conduct this discussion in the clear light of day, and stand or fall on the quality of your policy and the strength of your argument at the next ballot.
Let us not stoop to the level demonstrated above and ignore the alleged divisive and unconstructive attempts of the disingenuous referred to above.
Let us ACCEPT that NONE of us hold THE ANSWER to EVERYTHING or about ANYTHING.
None of us do and can not,
ASSOCIATION = a group of people organised for a joint purpose; a society.
A society, means that we all work together as a team, actively listening to each others concerns and suggestions and accordingly and actively supporting each others efforts for the benefit of all and the public generally.
We have a duty as part of that society to instruct and be instructed by each other equally, from his/her individual experience, journey and learning through life..
To act otherwise is not only arrogant and disrespectful in the extreme, it is worse; it is an arrogation of the rights of others.
We are sadly, currently engaged in a war for this very reason.
If you cannot nor will not play it that way, then you have NO legitimate place in a regularly organised society regardless of your well intentioned motivation, or sincere belief of your own “rightness”.
There were, to quote the current AOPA website ;
Once.
The kind of behaviour that generated this post may be one of the reasons it is not so today.
It can be again.
Oh and one other thing that I learned during my investigations.
There are a number of Directors, some who are due for election some who are not, who are there, by what could only be described, as "default".
By that I mean at the time of the last election there were insufficent candidates to fully contest an election, so that ANYONE who nominated was "elected" unnopposed.
Notwithstanding it being a sad indictment of the lack of membership and interest, it does not, (and this is IMHO only) give those who were "elected" in this manner and are not "due" by rotation for reelection, the right to refuse to step down and offer themselves for reelection at the next ballot.
Should the interest level sadly remain the same, then they have nothing to lose, if, hopefully, there is a vigourous election then that can only be for the benefit of the organisation.
I think its called a win win situation, unless of course the Directors concerned fear the membership, in which event it may become a lose lose and they may be forced to preside over their own irrelevancy.
In the spirit of renewal and the current situation, I believe that they are morally and honour bound to do so, in order that the will of the membership be truly revealed.
It's called an "association" owned by its members.
If they are "right" and their convictions are shared by the membership, then they have nothing to lose, failure to do so has the potential for much more harm than good.
On the matter of the withdrawn posts that are now back.
We are not sure what sort of silly game or agenda is being played here, other than we are certain that it is NOT in the best interests of AOPA and therefore will NOT be supported by us.
It goes like this.
The two posts were withdrawn, routinely, in response to the threat of litigation from an individual who purported and asserted certain "alleged facts" in support of his argument that certain persons were being defamed.
Mistake;
PPRuNe is not naive (= "foolishly credulous") enough to take any of such matters at face value or simply because they have been made.
In case there are those who haven't already worked it out, PPRuNe enjoys a very broad and diverse readership such that there is very, very little any one can get away with in the manner of disingenuousness or just plain old fashioned attempts at manipulation by others.
To save time for some in looking it up;
disingenuousness n
insincere, false, tricky, devious, deceitful, underhanded, underhand, guileful, double-dealing, two-faced, duplicitous, hypocritical, calculating, designing, colloq. shifty.
I am constantly amazed at how rapid is the defrocking here of dubious or dodgy stuff posted here, that I at first thought sounded credible.
However.
A check, and be warned we do so in ALL cases, of the main “alleged and asserted facts” with others, reveals that in fact the opposite could be so, or at the very least were an dodgy construction thereof.
Further it was alleged, that the information contained or “asserted” was “fed” to the individual whom does not now hold an executive position, allegedly from a senior source who does, to support the alleged senior sources “position”.
It was on the basis of this information that the posts were returned.
The “rights or wrongs”, if there exists such a thing, of the sources, or anyone’s “position” is not for PPRuNe to decide, if indeed we were interested in doing so, that decision, rightly and can only belong to the membership of AOPA, who, when apprised of the “actual facts”, whatever they might be, in the appropriate manner by the appropriate persons, can and will make their judgement at the ballot box.
We will just not be party to attempts at manipulation.
We are only the conduit for the discussion by interested parties of whatever matters are germane to the issues.
We will however fight for the right for all to contribute and will be resistant to the efforts of anyone to turn off the lights being shone into places they would rather not be.
We will support the genuine and constructive efforts of anyone trying to get AOPA upright again and that includes the senior source referred to above, who has the same access to this forum on the same conditions as anybody else to state and defend their case.
Lets us conduct this discussion in the clear light of day, and stand or fall on the quality of your policy and the strength of your argument at the next ballot.
Let us not stoop to the level demonstrated above and ignore the alleged divisive and unconstructive attempts of the disingenuous referred to above.
Let us ACCEPT that NONE of us hold THE ANSWER to EVERYTHING or about ANYTHING.
None of us do and can not,
ASSOCIATION = a group of people organised for a joint purpose; a society.
A society, means that we all work together as a team, actively listening to each others concerns and suggestions and accordingly and actively supporting each others efforts for the benefit of all and the public generally.
We have a duty as part of that society to instruct and be instructed by each other equally, from his/her individual experience, journey and learning through life..
To act otherwise is not only arrogant and disrespectful in the extreme, it is worse; it is an arrogation of the rights of others.
We are sadly, currently engaged in a war for this very reason.
If you cannot nor will not play it that way, then you have NO legitimate place in a regularly organised society regardless of your well intentioned motivation, or sincere belief of your own “rightness”.
There were, to quote the current AOPA website ;
Over 17,000 Australian Aircraft owners and pilots can't be wrong...!!
Once.
The kind of behaviour that generated this post may be one of the reasons it is not so today.
It can be again.
Oh and one other thing that I learned during my investigations.
There are a number of Directors, some who are due for election some who are not, who are there, by what could only be described, as "default".
By that I mean at the time of the last election there were insufficent candidates to fully contest an election, so that ANYONE who nominated was "elected" unnopposed.
Notwithstanding it being a sad indictment of the lack of membership and interest, it does not, (and this is IMHO only) give those who were "elected" in this manner and are not "due" by rotation for reelection, the right to refuse to step down and offer themselves for reelection at the next ballot.
Should the interest level sadly remain the same, then they have nothing to lose, if, hopefully, there is a vigourous election then that can only be for the benefit of the organisation.
I think its called a win win situation, unless of course the Directors concerned fear the membership, in which event it may become a lose lose and they may be forced to preside over their own irrelevancy.
In the spirit of renewal and the current situation, I believe that they are morally and honour bound to do so, in order that the will of the membership be truly revealed.
It's called an "association" owned by its members.
If they are "right" and their convictions are shared by the membership, then they have nothing to lose, failure to do so has the potential for much more harm than good.
Last edited by Woomera; 21st Mar 2003 at 04:27.
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Hi axiom,
Me frightening, mrs woomera has other ideas.
I am truly sorry if this is so, I don't suppose you could enlighten me, I am sincerely concerned that I do not alienate anyone in my support for the position and the positive influence of AOPA as truly representative of ALL our interests.
Hence my "tirade" I spose, against those who would attempt to "subvert" the process of constructive transparency on PPRuNe, for which every one seems to fervently wish.
Please feel free to PM me if would rather.
Oh and BTW I think you should nominate, as should anyone who has a passionate interest in AOPA, it's the only way you can actually change or support anything, if you believe that this is necessary.
Me frightening, mrs woomera has other ideas.
I am truly sorry if this is so, I don't suppose you could enlighten me, I am sincerely concerned that I do not alienate anyone in my support for the position and the positive influence of AOPA as truly representative of ALL our interests.
Hence my "tirade" I spose, against those who would attempt to "subvert" the process of constructive transparency on PPRuNe, for which every one seems to fervently wish.
Please feel free to PM me if would rather.
Oh and BTW I think you should nominate, as should anyone who has a passionate interest in AOPA, it's the only way you can actually change or support anything, if you believe that this is necessary.
Hear, Hear.
Very well said Woomera.
I was very disappointed to note that even with those carefully chosen powerfully assembled words there were some of us who could not help but allow themselves to descend into the mire.
This is not a criticism of those involved, it is merely a lament.
Woomera is right. We need to stick together or we'll all fall apart. The CASA doesn't need to destroy Aviation in Australia, all they need to do is to stir the pot. We'll end up doing the job much better than they could. If only we, and by we I mean ALL THE PARTICIPANTS IN AVIATION IN AUSTRALIA, could stop fighting each other we'd have a much better chance of survival.
Too many big egos I suspect. We all like to think that we know better than anyone else how to a) Fly an A/C, b) Do it safely, and c) Lead everyone else to the same conclusion. Hell, I DO!
This shouldn't stop us from agreeing to disagree about the details just as long as we all end up being able to make it to the bar on our own after we land.
I would like to think that AOPA is the association that should promote the industry as a whole since it pretty much covers the interests of the main participants. Some will disagree here and I suppose that is understandable, but it is true,....whether they think so or not.
Now I'm sure there'll be a torrent of abuse being prepared in the minds of some readers. Let me explain.
If the interests of Aircraft Owners and Pilots are catered for adequately then the interests of the other sections of the aviation community need not suffer. At least they shouldn't.
Aircraft Owners do well - more aircraft - more jobs for pilots - more jobs for LAME's - more jobs for aircraft parts shops - etc - more money overseas to Aircraft manufacturers - uhoh. More tax for the GOVT to collect. OK, worse balance of trade figures, but that's nothin' compared to QANTARSE buying a few AIRBUSSES.
Airline Pilots have their interests looked after - no-one but the airlines fly....Sorry, that won't work. How about, Private Pilots have their interests looked after - system is kept simple enough for weekend warrior - ATC are kept on their toes - Airline Pilots get to use their TCAS (no chance of getting them to look out the goddam window), and have someone to whinge about at the bar afterwards - Pollies get to say that they have fostered a vibrant GA which is the primary school of all inexpensively trained airline pilots.
You'll have to afford me some poetic licence here. Obviously airline pilots will always have something to whinge about - Just like everyone else! - Steady on there fellas.
Can't help but think that we take things a bit too seriously in our business.
Seriously though, we do need to work together boys and girls. It's pretty boring playing with yourself,.... sorry, that's by yourself.
Regards
I was very disappointed to note that even with those carefully chosen powerfully assembled words there were some of us who could not help but allow themselves to descend into the mire.
This is not a criticism of those involved, it is merely a lament.
Woomera is right. We need to stick together or we'll all fall apart. The CASA doesn't need to destroy Aviation in Australia, all they need to do is to stir the pot. We'll end up doing the job much better than they could. If only we, and by we I mean ALL THE PARTICIPANTS IN AVIATION IN AUSTRALIA, could stop fighting each other we'd have a much better chance of survival.
Too many big egos I suspect. We all like to think that we know better than anyone else how to a) Fly an A/C, b) Do it safely, and c) Lead everyone else to the same conclusion. Hell, I DO!
This shouldn't stop us from agreeing to disagree about the details just as long as we all end up being able to make it to the bar on our own after we land.
I would like to think that AOPA is the association that should promote the industry as a whole since it pretty much covers the interests of the main participants. Some will disagree here and I suppose that is understandable, but it is true,....whether they think so or not.
Now I'm sure there'll be a torrent of abuse being prepared in the minds of some readers. Let me explain.
If the interests of Aircraft Owners and Pilots are catered for adequately then the interests of the other sections of the aviation community need not suffer. At least they shouldn't.
Aircraft Owners do well - more aircraft - more jobs for pilots - more jobs for LAME's - more jobs for aircraft parts shops - etc - more money overseas to Aircraft manufacturers - uhoh. More tax for the GOVT to collect. OK, worse balance of trade figures, but that's nothin' compared to QANTARSE buying a few AIRBUSSES.
Airline Pilots have their interests looked after - no-one but the airlines fly....Sorry, that won't work. How about, Private Pilots have their interests looked after - system is kept simple enough for weekend warrior - ATC are kept on their toes - Airline Pilots get to use their TCAS (no chance of getting them to look out the goddam window), and have someone to whinge about at the bar afterwards - Pollies get to say that they have fostered a vibrant GA which is the primary school of all inexpensively trained airline pilots.
You'll have to afford me some poetic licence here. Obviously airline pilots will always have something to whinge about - Just like everyone else! - Steady on there fellas.
Can't help but think that we take things a bit too seriously in our business.
Seriously though, we do need to work together boys and girls. It's pretty boring playing with yourself,.... sorry, that's by yourself.
Regards
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well said
Manwell.
Haven't seen you here before, but a very good summary.
I am just a plain old PPL with a couple of aeroplanes. but I feel I have a lot of common ground with flying schools. If I can maintain the aircraft cheaply then the flying school can hire it out cheaper and everyone wins.
If I get free airesevices 'services' then I can afford to fly more and spend more on 'safety stuff'. I win, the school wins, the hirer wins.
There is so much common ground.
It saddened me in my time on the AOPA Board to see so much made of our differences and little of our commonality.
I hope that changes in May.
AK
Haven't seen you here before, but a very good summary.
I am just a plain old PPL with a couple of aeroplanes. but I feel I have a lot of common ground with flying schools. If I can maintain the aircraft cheaply then the flying school can hire it out cheaper and everyone wins.
If I get free airesevices 'services' then I can afford to fly more and spend more on 'safety stuff'. I win, the school wins, the hirer wins.
There is so much common ground.
It saddened me in my time on the AOPA Board to see so much made of our differences and little of our commonality.
I hope that changes in May.
AK
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It seems apathy is not dead concerning AOPA. Perhaps what is needed is a full time PAID president?! Hired by the board to devote the required amount of time into General Aviation and all her concerns.
Why not have your elected 8 Committee people, who then hire a President. Full time!, The Committee have the right to veto a Presidents move, and vice versa. Contract renewed on a yearly basis based on performance etc.
That way we have a DEDICATED person to DEDICATE all the time and resource into dealing with issues concerning GA. Not a scattered crew of well meaning and somewhat effective (or not) directors devoting time and money (not to mention personal sacrifice) into a black hole of confusion and misdirection.
How about
WANTED.
Bulb to fit the light at the end of the tunnel.
Person with long background and history within Aviation in Australia. Contract basis on performance and results. Poor pay initially, with increase based on effectiveness. Must be PR savy and enthusiatic. At least 100 watts clear glass.
Contact AOPA. (The light)
Live Long, Die Young
Dog
Why not have your elected 8 Committee people, who then hire a President. Full time!, The Committee have the right to veto a Presidents move, and vice versa. Contract renewed on a yearly basis based on performance etc.
That way we have a DEDICATED person to DEDICATE all the time and resource into dealing with issues concerning GA. Not a scattered crew of well meaning and somewhat effective (or not) directors devoting time and money (not to mention personal sacrifice) into a black hole of confusion and misdirection.
How about
WANTED.
Bulb to fit the light at the end of the tunnel.
Person with long background and history within Aviation in Australia. Contract basis on performance and results. Poor pay initially, with increase based on effectiveness. Must be PR savy and enthusiatic. At least 100 watts clear glass.
Contact AOPA. (The light)
Live Long, Die Young
Dog
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Dog
In your youthful exuberence you are confusing executive governance with regulation.
By its very name, a President presides over a Board. it wouldn't work if the Board could just sack him/her.
AOPA US has an elected/paid position. I doubt AOPA Oz has the cash for this.
AOPA used to have an excellent, Paid GM,researcher, lobbyist. His name was Bart Beech. He was/is a great operator. He fell foul of the personalities at the time (one of whom is still around). They sacked him.
In my view, probably cos he was smarter than them and taking the limelight.
Chuck
In your youthful exuberence you are confusing executive governance with regulation.
By its very name, a President presides over a Board. it wouldn't work if the Board could just sack him/her.
AOPA US has an elected/paid position. I doubt AOPA Oz has the cash for this.
AOPA used to have an excellent, Paid GM,researcher, lobbyist. His name was Bart Beech. He was/is a great operator. He fell foul of the personalities at the time (one of whom is still around). They sacked him.
In my view, probably cos he was smarter than them and taking the limelight.
Chuck
Join Date: Sep 2001
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I have it on good, credible, but anonomous, and inside, authority, that marjorie would be acceptable to CASA.
Further Bill Hamilton is a problem to them and NOT acceptable.
Are we appeasing the members, or CASA here in these discussions, or are we pandering to a number of disenfranchised and p!ssed off board members who have an agenda possibly of ingratiating themselves with our Regulator?????
If Bill Hamilton gets it in the neck, who is going to replace him and give the time, energy and dedication to regulatory reform. Or do we just trust the regulator and hope everything will pan out OK?
When Jim Dawson left, he went without fuss and AOPA were no worse off for the event, they were simply without a clear thinking and dedicated research officer who is missed to this day.
BUT at least he went without dragging the association down into the grubby mire that it is now because of some EGO's (or is there something more sinister afoot?)
Watch carefully for modifications to the ARTICLES of ASSOCIATION of AOPA that are without change for the better.
If there is to be change, read the motion carefully, see if you understand it and vote accordingly.
If it seems strange, written by a lawyer, too many "whichforschuchly's", or aimed at giving someone the ar$e because they are not liked by the minority, give your proxy to someone who will do something positive or better still, stand for the elections and p!ss the loud minority off.
axiom is now campaigning for a close and dear friend who has just such a motion to present. He will present same (based primarily on the state Representative Chapter concept), and is open to suggestions and ammendments to same after he posts next week.
Close ranks people !
Further Bill Hamilton is a problem to them and NOT acceptable.
Are we appeasing the members, or CASA here in these discussions, or are we pandering to a number of disenfranchised and p!ssed off board members who have an agenda possibly of ingratiating themselves with our Regulator?????
If Bill Hamilton gets it in the neck, who is going to replace him and give the time, energy and dedication to regulatory reform. Or do we just trust the regulator and hope everything will pan out OK?
When Jim Dawson left, he went without fuss and AOPA were no worse off for the event, they were simply without a clear thinking and dedicated research officer who is missed to this day.
BUT at least he went without dragging the association down into the grubby mire that it is now because of some EGO's (or is there something more sinister afoot?)
Watch carefully for modifications to the ARTICLES of ASSOCIATION of AOPA that are without change for the better.
If there is to be change, read the motion carefully, see if you understand it and vote accordingly.
If it seems strange, written by a lawyer, too many "whichforschuchly's", or aimed at giving someone the ar$e because they are not liked by the minority, give your proxy to someone who will do something positive or better still, stand for the elections and p!ss the loud minority off.
axiom is now campaigning for a close and dear friend who has just such a motion to present. He will present same (based primarily on the state Representative Chapter concept), and is open to suggestions and ammendments to same after he posts next week.
Close ranks people !
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The silence is deafening from the opposition, albeit that I have just been informed that my mate's motion will NOT be accepted by the current board, (read that as a minority of one), also given that Bill Pike has now resigned from the Board.
It brings to bear the basis of 249 N1 about the rights of members to bring about a motion and needs 5% or 100 members to concur.
Talk about rigging the election !
This is brought on at a time when it would be a superhuman effort to arrange same given the time involved and before the expiration of the time limits.
the motion attempts to bring about a phased introduction and acknowledgement of State run Chapters, reporting to a policy committee and passed on to the Federal Exectutive for implementation.
HOW CAN THIS HURT UNLESS IT IMPINGES UPON SOME POLITICAL, IDEOLOGICAL or CONSPIRITORIAL agenda by the POWER that be.
The people involved in this act of BASTARDRY are NOT: NOT: NOT;
Bill Hamilton.
John Lyon.
Bill Pike.
I believe Richard Rudd.
I believe Mick Kennedy.
I believe Chris McKeown .
And I think Ron Lawford who I suspect has also resigned or has been forced to do so by way of the AOPA requirements for the AGM.
If there is anyone I have missed I apologise to HER.
All this is simply too much and will certainly spell the destruction of AOPA and any possibility of aviation in Australia ever having a co-hesive voice against the regulator.
axiom's friend, Bob Murphie desperately needs 100 AOPA members to stop this madness and support can be given via his email [email protected] or direct your anger to any of the Board who you trust, contacts in the mag.
Bob's motion is trying to give AOPA back to the members and stop the intrenched rot that is evident in the AOPA barrel.
email axiom via pprune for info on the proposed ammendments and a run down on what the mob have in store for you.
Aviation will be worse for it if everyone ignores this plea and accepts the inevitable outcome that will be brought upon by apathy and appeasement and forced compliance with a minority Board as it is now.
It brings to bear the basis of 249 N1 about the rights of members to bring about a motion and needs 5% or 100 members to concur.
Talk about rigging the election !
This is brought on at a time when it would be a superhuman effort to arrange same given the time involved and before the expiration of the time limits.
the motion attempts to bring about a phased introduction and acknowledgement of State run Chapters, reporting to a policy committee and passed on to the Federal Exectutive for implementation.
HOW CAN THIS HURT UNLESS IT IMPINGES UPON SOME POLITICAL, IDEOLOGICAL or CONSPIRITORIAL agenda by the POWER that be.
The people involved in this act of BASTARDRY are NOT: NOT: NOT;
Bill Hamilton.
John Lyon.
Bill Pike.
I believe Richard Rudd.
I believe Mick Kennedy.
I believe Chris McKeown .
And I think Ron Lawford who I suspect has also resigned or has been forced to do so by way of the AOPA requirements for the AGM.
If there is anyone I have missed I apologise to HER.
All this is simply too much and will certainly spell the destruction of AOPA and any possibility of aviation in Australia ever having a co-hesive voice against the regulator.
axiom's friend, Bob Murphie desperately needs 100 AOPA members to stop this madness and support can be given via his email [email protected] or direct your anger to any of the Board who you trust, contacts in the mag.
Bob's motion is trying to give AOPA back to the members and stop the intrenched rot that is evident in the AOPA barrel.
email axiom via pprune for info on the proposed ammendments and a run down on what the mob have in store for you.
Aviation will be worse for it if everyone ignores this plea and accepts the inevitable outcome that will be brought upon by apathy and appeasement and forced compliance with a minority Board as it is now.
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Turmoil at AOPA
Well Mr Axiom, it looks like your crew on the MV "AOPA" is going to go down with the ship. If Bill Pike has resigned that will be a sorry day for General Aviation and I could understand why Ron Lawford wouldn't want to hang around either.
Apparently 'Captain' Hamilton has attempted to cease control of the bridge but the dwindling crew has brought the mutiny back under control.
So a "ticket" is being organised to keep him in power after the AGM - this will probably spell the end of the good ship "AOPA".
Your other conspirital nonesense regarding alleged sources from CASA saying they love Marjorie Pagani and loath Hamilton will be seen by anyone with a modicum of intelligence as being pure tripe. You ought volunteer as Saddam's Information Minister...
I'm afraid Axiom that you are supporting a tired, failed and despotic team that have put themselves and their egos ahead of the members.
It's time we had a fresh start, new people who can sort out the mess.
Russell
Apparently 'Captain' Hamilton has attempted to cease control of the bridge but the dwindling crew has brought the mutiny back under control.
So a "ticket" is being organised to keep him in power after the AGM - this will probably spell the end of the good ship "AOPA".
Your other conspirital nonesense regarding alleged sources from CASA saying they love Marjorie Pagani and loath Hamilton will be seen by anyone with a modicum of intelligence as being pure tripe. You ought volunteer as Saddam's Information Minister...
I'm afraid Axiom that you are supporting a tired, failed and despotic team that have put themselves and their egos ahead of the members.
It's time we had a fresh start, new people who can sort out the mess.
Russell
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The good ship AOPA was sailing along nicely prior to you and snarek's departure.
Since then there has been nothing but trouble.
If the ship is going down, I notice you deserted first and, talk about the rats swimming towards a sinking ship, snarek followed.
If your platform is reform by giving it to Hamilton in the neck, don't count on a lot of support. The worst political disasters came about by such negativity and I ask again, what are your acomplishments to match or exceed, indeed, give you the right to put yourself on par with Hamilton?
Bob Murphie put a motion to the board, a simple and positive attempt to give AOPA back to the members by a phased in suggestion at State Chapters.
This motion was vetoed by a majority of one and I ask, what gives someone the right to stop a motion being tabled (within all time constraints) to the AGM when it should be up to the members to decide if they want it or not.
This is happening !!
There is no ticket being organised, but Bob murphie has a lot of support for his proposal which has been tried before but needs another airing given the present circumstances.
The nonesense you refer to is not so, this writer being privy to more inside feelings of our regulator than you give or imagine credit for.
As to your insulting reference to Saddam's mob, it may please you to know that there is a vacancy coming up in Baghdad for a tourism minister.
You would do well to apply now, there is a smaller queue than at CASA.
By the way, who are these new fresh people that are going to sort out this mess, perhaps the two K's who started it in the first place??
I can't think of an appropriate insult so an icon will have to do
Since then there has been nothing but trouble.
If the ship is going down, I notice you deserted first and, talk about the rats swimming towards a sinking ship, snarek followed.
If your platform is reform by giving it to Hamilton in the neck, don't count on a lot of support. The worst political disasters came about by such negativity and I ask again, what are your acomplishments to match or exceed, indeed, give you the right to put yourself on par with Hamilton?
Bob Murphie put a motion to the board, a simple and positive attempt to give AOPA back to the members by a phased in suggestion at State Chapters.
This motion was vetoed by a majority of one and I ask, what gives someone the right to stop a motion being tabled (within all time constraints) to the AGM when it should be up to the members to decide if they want it or not.
This is happening !!
There is no ticket being organised, but Bob murphie has a lot of support for his proposal which has been tried before but needs another airing given the present circumstances.
The nonesense you refer to is not so, this writer being privy to more inside feelings of our regulator than you give or imagine credit for.
As to your insulting reference to Saddam's mob, it may please you to know that there is a vacancy coming up in Baghdad for a tourism minister.
You would do well to apply now, there is a smaller queue than at CASA.
By the way, who are these new fresh people that are going to sort out this mess, perhaps the two K's who started it in the first place??
I can't think of an appropriate insult so an icon will have to do
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Mixed Message
Axiom you are mixing lots of little issues in your post. I will address several of these:
1. I understand that a Mr Murphie wants to table some
special resolutions at the coming AGM. He needs to comply
with the Corporations Law and AOPA's Constitution.
Apparently he hasn't so why the conspiracy theory stuff?
Yes, the board could adopt Murphie's resolution and put it
up but the Committee is in no state to inititate any
resolutions at the moment. They can't even agree to accept
the statutory accounts or a bunch of constitution changes
recommended by Marjorie Pagani.
Mr Murphie is standing for election so he will have ample
opportunity if elected to call an EGM and put to the members
any changes he likes.
2. You may well ask why the resignations? Why did Kelly,
Kerans and Pike pull the pin? Why is Ron Lawford going to
resign? Other resignations are iminent. Why?
Doesn't take Mandrake to work this one out, Axiom.
Your mate Mr Hamilton is the common denominator.
3. By a "fresh" board I do not mean a bunch of Hamilton cronies.
What is needed are competent independent aviators who
have the skills and experience to fix up the AOPA malaise.
Problem is that anyone fitting this profile would not by
definition volunteer. And in my opinion, they too would/could
not work with Mr Hamilton.
4. Why won't Hamilton/Lyon join the spill for a new board? Sure,
the Constitution does not require them to do this but in the
name of AOPA stability and harmony I reckon a regular person
would be eagre to have the members make the decision.
Finally I would like to offer a tribute to Bill Pike and his AOPA presidency. He took on an almost impossible job with AOPA's credibility and finances in tatters and was left to try and manage a board that was ideologically divided. He had my total support (even though we disagreed on issues) because I knew he was there for the right reasons and actively worked to further AOPA's mission. Thanks Bill, GA is indebted to you.
Russell
1. I understand that a Mr Murphie wants to table some
special resolutions at the coming AGM. He needs to comply
with the Corporations Law and AOPA's Constitution.
Apparently he hasn't so why the conspiracy theory stuff?
Yes, the board could adopt Murphie's resolution and put it
up but the Committee is in no state to inititate any
resolutions at the moment. They can't even agree to accept
the statutory accounts or a bunch of constitution changes
recommended by Marjorie Pagani.
Mr Murphie is standing for election so he will have ample
opportunity if elected to call an EGM and put to the members
any changes he likes.
2. You may well ask why the resignations? Why did Kelly,
Kerans and Pike pull the pin? Why is Ron Lawford going to
resign? Other resignations are iminent. Why?
Doesn't take Mandrake to work this one out, Axiom.
Your mate Mr Hamilton is the common denominator.
3. By a "fresh" board I do not mean a bunch of Hamilton cronies.
What is needed are competent independent aviators who
have the skills and experience to fix up the AOPA malaise.
Problem is that anyone fitting this profile would not by
definition volunteer. And in my opinion, they too would/could
not work with Mr Hamilton.
4. Why won't Hamilton/Lyon join the spill for a new board? Sure,
the Constitution does not require them to do this but in the
name of AOPA stability and harmony I reckon a regular person
would be eagre to have the members make the decision.
Finally I would like to offer a tribute to Bill Pike and his AOPA presidency. He took on an almost impossible job with AOPA's credibility and finances in tatters and was left to try and manage a board that was ideologically divided. He had my total support (even though we disagreed on issues) because I knew he was there for the right reasons and actively worked to further AOPA's mission. Thanks Bill, GA is indebted to you.
Russell
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Bob advises that having received an email from Marjorie Pagani he wishes to withdraw same and has no further intent to persue the matter, given the futility.
Further he is advised that others received from members have likewise been treated, apparantly none having complied with the company's articles of association nor the Corporations law.
axiom understands however one such motion, aimed directly at giving Hamilton the ar$e and authored by the rejector of the others does comply and will be tabled.
Strange times we live in
Further he is advised that others received from members have likewise been treated, apparantly none having complied with the company's articles of association nor the Corporations law.
axiom understands however one such motion, aimed directly at giving Hamilton the ar$e and authored by the rejector of the others does comply and will be tabled.
Strange times we live in
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Axiom
I have tried to stay out of this, because I want a strong association.
BUT, your implied attack on Marjorie Pagani is waaaay out of line. "Acceptable to CASA", sounds like typical whinging scaremongering to me.
Capable of working with CASA for the betterment of GA, well that would make a nice change wouldn't it. A change from the pompous cr@p we have seen over the last near decade.
As for Jim Dawson. I have only spoken to him occasionally, but I do recall one on the reasons he left. A common demoniator in all AOPA's problems over the past eight years, the ego of your mate CAPTAIN Bill Hamilton.
Besides, if Hamilton is so popular, why doesn't he have the b@lls to put it to a test!!!
Seems everyone else has.
I have tried to stay out of this, because I want a strong association.
BUT, your implied attack on Marjorie Pagani is waaaay out of line. "Acceptable to CASA", sounds like typical whinging scaremongering to me.
Capable of working with CASA for the betterment of GA, well that would make a nice change wouldn't it. A change from the pompous cr@p we have seen over the last near decade.
As for Jim Dawson. I have only spoken to him occasionally, but I do recall one on the reasons he left. A common demoniator in all AOPA's problems over the past eight years, the ego of your mate CAPTAIN Bill Hamilton.
Besides, if Hamilton is so popular, why doesn't he have the b@lls to put it to a test!!!
Seems everyone else has.
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Ax me old mate. Get the LOCSTATS right before dropping WP!!!!
I authored the motion to spill Hamilton. If I am elected and that motion doesn't get up, I will move a no confidence motion in him. If that fails I will quit.
I cannot and will not work with Hamilton (or Lyon) again. I ask any that may wish to support me to keep that in mind, it is your AOPA. It is your vote.
All Marjorie did was to ensure the motions (there are two, I want rid of Lyon as well) met the requirements of the articles.
Mr Hamilton and his mate Mr Mitchell from WA are not slow in coming forward with legal or accounting advice. I invite Bob to speak to them. After all, why should Marjorie help Hamilton. I don't think there is any love lost there!!!!
I have formed the view that Hamilton has set the cause of GA back 50 years. I have formed the view that I personally cannot believe a word of what he says. I am of the veow that he has so alienated the regulator, the Minister and advisors that AOPA has lost credibility. And you know enough of me to know I am close enough to have the information by which to form those opinions.
I simply have had enough.
So, aim at me and apologise to Marjorie. Honour, remember!!!!
AK
I authored the motion to spill Hamilton. If I am elected and that motion doesn't get up, I will move a no confidence motion in him. If that fails I will quit.
I cannot and will not work with Hamilton (or Lyon) again. I ask any that may wish to support me to keep that in mind, it is your AOPA. It is your vote.
All Marjorie did was to ensure the motions (there are two, I want rid of Lyon as well) met the requirements of the articles.
Mr Hamilton and his mate Mr Mitchell from WA are not slow in coming forward with legal or accounting advice. I invite Bob to speak to them. After all, why should Marjorie help Hamilton. I don't think there is any love lost there!!!!
I have formed the view that Hamilton has set the cause of GA back 50 years. I have formed the view that I personally cannot believe a word of what he says. I am of the veow that he has so alienated the regulator, the Minister and advisors that AOPA has lost credibility. And you know enough of me to know I am close enough to have the information by which to form those opinions.
I simply have had enough.
So, aim at me and apologise to Marjorie. Honour, remember!!!!
AK
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antechinus
// noun (plural -nuses) a type of Australian marsupial mouse of the family Dasyuridae, as the widespread yellow-footed antechinus, Antechinus flavipes, having a grey head, orange-brown rump and feet, and a black tip on the tail. [Greek anti- as good as, simulating + Greek ech'nos hedgehog; with reference to its bristles]
how appropriate
Perhaps you and Snarek could tell what you have done for AOPA, apart from resigning that is.
Bart
// noun (plural -nuses) a type of Australian marsupial mouse of the family Dasyuridae, as the widespread yellow-footed antechinus, Antechinus flavipes, having a grey head, orange-brown rump and feet, and a black tip on the tail. [Greek anti- as good as, simulating + Greek ech'nos hedgehog; with reference to its bristles]
how appropriate
Perhaps you and Snarek could tell what you have done for AOPA, apart from resigning that is.
Bart
