Downwind limit for PA31
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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POH doesn't list one........... I have some "old" Landing charts which show the highest listed downwind in the chart as 5 kts. (They not Piper ones......DOT!!!!!!!!!) Since the POH is now supposedly the authority document, how much runway ya got?
This answer is not PA31 specific.
There may be a standard tailwind component in the POH or flight manual, however an operator may apply for a change to that based on information from the manufacturer and/or flight testing. So depending on why you require the info it is best to read the specific aircraft manuals in conjunction with the company operations manual.
They may well be different.
There may be a standard tailwind component in the POH or flight manual, however an operator may apply for a change to that based on information from the manufacturer and/or flight testing. So depending on why you require the info it is best to read the specific aircraft manuals in conjunction with the company operations manual.
They may well be different.
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Hurlingham,
Just curious, where did you get the 17 knot figure from? I've landed with 14 to 15 kts downwind, and can certainly vouch for the fact that it takes a lot of runway....... at least at the std MLW!!!!
Just curious, where did you get the 17 knot figure from? I've landed with 14 to 15 kts downwind, and can certainly vouch for the fact that it takes a lot of runway....... at least at the std MLW!!!!
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Just curious
Dale me ol' mate,
You've got me really curious now, where, when and WHY???
If you were landing toward the cloud and granite, wouldn't that make a go-around a tricky thing?
BSB
You've got me really curious now, where, when and WHY???
If you were landing toward the cloud and granite, wouldn't that make a go-around a tricky thing?
BSB
Join Date: Sep 1998
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I have seen many a curfew arrival on 34L at Sydney with 15kts downwind, various types.
The political/noise abatement constraints are as good as cloud and granite at the other end but a missed approach is safely available, albeit subject to paperwork to justify same. There aren't many.
Edited to say ... That's pilot paperwork, per AIP DAP/NAP. We (ATC) don't get involved.
AA
The political/noise abatement constraints are as good as cloud and granite at the other end but a missed approach is safely available, albeit subject to paperwork to justify same. There aren't many.
Edited to say ... That's pilot paperwork, per AIP DAP/NAP. We (ATC) don't get involved.
AA
Last edited by Ausatco; 27th Feb 2003 at 02:51.
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Ahhh here we go...... At Wyy, the lowest cloud is usually associated with easterlies. Unfortunately, because of the high ground to west, the instrument approaches to 09 have a minima of 700 ft at best (GPS) On 27's VOR/DME, yo can get down to 620 ft. You still have the 27 missed approach available. It is only 80 ft but it has got me in more than once. Perfectly okay and safe, as long as you have the runway length. 14 to 15 knots is the most i have encountered, and i would not attempt it above 15 kts. Not because of runway length, because there is 1650 mts available. The tyres fitted to the PA 31 are only rated to 120 mph. So, at 15 kts down wind and a touchdown speed of 85 kts, you have 100kts G/S (About 117 mph) The 27 approach also has the advantage of an early descent to the MDA, an advantage in low vis.
I would assume that there are other places in oz where this anomaly might exist? It sure beats having to go to DPO or LT, since our operation is based at WYY and our facilities are there.
Simple really..........
I would assume that there are other places in oz where this anomaly might exist? It sure beats having to go to DPO or LT, since our operation is based at WYY and our facilities are there.
Simple really..........
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Well Missy, if I use the old DOT tables, and keep in mind these are for a PA 31 - 310, with 40 deg flap, it actually indicates that at ISA you need 750 metres. The chieftain would require more because it's heavier, most PA 31 have only 25 deg flap as well, although that won't make a big difference........... This is the only reference I have at home, when I go to work tonight I will have a look at the charts for our A/C, (All 350's) with VG kits....... BTW my landings were all wet runway......... I certainly would be very cautious about attempting 750 metres with any downwind i'm afraid......... If it was empty, maybe........ The real question would be how you gonna get it out???? I'll let you know.....
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Well Missy, I will start by apologising in advance, since I cannot find directly the information which you seek........ Anyhow, there is no reference to a downwind limitation in the POH. (Which is now the Flight Manual in our new "enlightened" system) The figures i quoted earlier, as I said, are from an old DOT flight manual for a PA 31-310. They would I am sure be reasonably similar. However, since the Piper charts do not show any allowances for downwind landings in their calculations, you are left pretty much to your own devices.
I recall some of the posters here had a discussion as to the merits of the new flight manual system some time ago WRT this very subject. I vaguely recall a rule of thumb I was once taught about a % to add to allow for each kt of downwind but cannot recall what it was. So I guess you are really on your own with these things these days. Can anyone else help with the rule of thumb thing???? anyone????? Maybe JT??????
I recall some of the posters here had a discussion as to the merits of the new flight manual system some time ago WRT this very subject. I vaguely recall a rule of thumb I was once taught about a % to add to allow for each kt of downwind but cannot recall what it was. So I guess you are really on your own with these things these days. Can anyone else help with the rule of thumb thing???? anyone????? Maybe JT??????
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From the manual...
Missy,
Mah gen-u-ine Piper Chieftain manual (1980 model with fast gear and flaps) gives you up to 10 knots tailwind in the landing distance charts.
If you land with more tailwind than that, you would have to be able to justify your decision - weather to CASA, your Chief Pilot, your friends and/or most importantly, yourself.
We see plenty of Chieftains land with strong downwind components here - downhill to boot - and when they come into the hangar the telltale signs of abuse are all there.
Dale's point about the tire limiting speeds is also a very very good one.
Fly safe
Mah gen-u-ine Piper Chieftain manual (1980 model with fast gear and flaps) gives you up to 10 knots tailwind in the landing distance charts.
If you land with more tailwind than that, you would have to be able to justify your decision - weather to CASA, your Chief Pilot, your friends and/or most importantly, yourself.
We see plenty of Chieftains land with strong downwind components here - downhill to boot - and when they come into the hangar the telltale signs of abuse are all there.
Dale's point about the tire limiting speeds is also a very very good one.
Fly safe
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Thanks Elk, ours are "pre 1980" models....... There are two different POH's. On the other hand Missy, I found another old DOT chart for a chieftain, and with 5 kts and at the std MLW it suggested you require 1160 mts. (That is factored by 1.24, and is for a level dry paved surface)
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I woulda thought the acceptable down wind component would have been a formula along the lines of length of runway available- condition of brakes-condition of tyres-stol kit fitted or + stol kit not fitted devided by the pilots experiance= what ever the flight manual reckons. 
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The only one I know quoted 5kts for downwind max. Someone with lots of experience suggested it was due to the excessive relative speed the wheel has to spin up (especially on bitumen) on contact with the ground. Telltale signs I was told were water marks on bearings and tendency for flat wear on tyres. Dont know if its an old wives tale, though! I've never encountered a situation forcing to accept too much downwind yet.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
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I believe the physical signs of down wind abuse would be flat spots on the tyres and sh!t stains on the seats..... Only my observations though, could be other more obviouse stuff I dont know about coz I is just a pilot, not an engines ear ya know.