Commercial pilot training

[gardiwil]

Hi

I am currently building hours for my 200hour cpl. Once I have 100 hours in command is there a requirement to do 30 hours dual time with an instructor to get me up to the CPL level before I sit my flight test? My school is saying there is but I can't find where this is written. CASA have the following requirements on there web page:

200 hours flight time including at least

100 hours as pilot in command

100 hours of flight time in aeroplanes

20 hours cross country flight time as pilot in command of an aeroplane

10 hours of instrument flight time in aeroplanes

could anyone clarify

cheers

[Bevan666]

There was not in my day (did my CPL test in `93). Once I had the prerequisite 150 odd hours, I then did a weeks worth of navs to get up to standard and then I did my test.

Glancing at my logbook it was 14 hours or so worth.

Bevan..

[Islander Jock]

OK I'll throw myself into the bearpit although someone with CPL training experience might like to correct me.

gardiwil,

Once you have the required command time in your log as per the CASA regs I believe it is then up to the training organisation concerned and what is specified in their operations manual as to how much dual time you require before being recommended for CPL flight test.

It will largely depend on how much experience you have prior to starting your CPL training. ie, If you spend all your time flying within 1 or 2 hrs of you your normal airport during daylight hours and you have only the minimum times then you will probably require most of what the flying school is specifying. If on the other hand you have amassed maybe 4 or 5 hundred hours with a couple of outback or cross Australia flights thrown in then you could realistically expect that you would have reached many of the competencies which would form part of your CPL syllabus.

Ask your school for a reference to the relevant CAR specifying what dual time is required prior to CPL flight test.

I'm sure the instructor fraternity here will clarify the situation far better than I.

[RENURPP]

gardiwil

I am not sure of the regs re this subject these days and couldn't be bothered looking it up BUT, is the flying school saying you require 30 hrs due to min requirements or are they saying their estimate based on what they see will take you approx 30 hrs. If its the later 30hrs sounds like a minimum to me if you have been out doing your own thing getting hours in your log book with no real direction or guidance.

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

CAR 5.111 is where you need to look to find the min requirements for issue of the license.

as for needing 30 hours, as previously mentined, this may be what is required for you to meet the standard to sit the test, ie to obtain the CFI's approval, if someone quoted me a figure as high as this i would ask two question, 1. am i that far short of meeting the standard and 2. is this guy tring to rip me off.

[I Fly]

To attempt a Flight test you need a CFI recommendation. If someone comes to me with hours meeting the CAR requirements I need something to be able to recommend. I fly a pre CPL Licence test and if I can sign off all the items on the CPL Achievement Record then I recommend the test. After advising CASA I conduct the test. This way the candidate knows what to expect. I can see a lot of items twice, and they can’t just fluke it. If we find something not up to standard, I suggest what time it might take to improve the standard. As Islander Jock said, it depends a lot on the Operations Manual. We have a minimum of 5 hours on the test aircraft type. Remember also that more than 50% of candidates have to pass at the first attempt, when measured over a 2 year period. Otherwise the school looses that rating.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

How long it takes depends very much on the individual. I've recommended people for CPL test having only done a couple of flights with them, others take longer, the longest was 20 hours from memory. It seems to depend mainly on how good the ab-initio training was, because that will determine whether or not they have bad habits. Some who have come from woeful schools in the USA have had to learn to fly pretty much from scratch!

[Tinstaafl]

There is also (was?) a requirement for a 200 CPL candidate to undergo an assessment flight, from which a course would be designed to address any shortcomings.

This includes areas of skill and also min. experience requirements eg you have 90 comd, 60 dual then no matter what you will have to do a minimum of 50 hrs, at least 10 of which must be solo.

Have you done the assessment yet? Until then they're having you on to say you will need xyz hrs, except in the broadest possible sense.

It's in your own interest to do it earlier rather than later. Remember part of the 200 hrs is available to you as training time.

Why pay to burn solo holes around the local area to reach the magic 200 hrs then do an assessment + whatever training is required?

Better to have your assessment prior to the 200hrs then use what remainder is available for your 'top up' training.

[RENURPP]

I am not aware of the syllabus requirements, however, noted from previous threads and conversations, most people are dissatisfied with the standard of new CPL/instructors these days.

This chap/chappess comes along thinking 30 hrs is a lot of flying to obtain a cpl.

If a person punches holes in the sky for approx 200 hrs can we really expect a high standard cpl with only 20 hrs training. I have to think definitely not.

A lot of variables here of course.
What was his initial training like?
What was covered in his navigation exercises?
What did he do for the rest of the 200 hrs?

Tinstaafl, makes the point

Remember part of the 200 hrs is available to you as training time.

I would go further and say if you seriously want to be a commercial pilot the whole 200 hrs is available to you for training.

[needanamefast]

Correct me if i'am wrong but the 10 hour IF, only 5 has to be done in the plane

also if you have extra hours don't waste them. Can't you use some of them to do some night circuits or nav which will count towards your IR or NVFR if you are planning on doing it.

Cheers

[2B1ASK1]

RE: Commercial pilot training

Gardiwil

Here goes sorry for using regs (Day VFR Syllabus).
It simply states the following hour requirements:

200 hours total flight time;
100 hours flight time as PIC;
100 hours flight time in a registered or recognised aeroplane;
20 hour cross country flight time as PIC in a registered or recognised aeroplane;
10 hours IF in a registered or recognised aeroplane###not sim###;

Now here is the catch Prior to undertaking a CPL flight test, a 200 hour candidate must undertake an assesement flight with a grade 1 flight instructor. As a result the instructor is to recommend as appropriate, that the candidate either is ready to undertake the CPLA flight test, or should undertake, in acordance with the relevant parts of the day VFR syllabus, a tailored course of training designed to prepare the candidate for a flight test.

My own experience as I went the same way you are going was that after the assesement flight I basically done one more dual Nav where the instructor pointed out a few tips. Shortly after came my CPL test with les morris R.I.P. and will be sadly missed by many, which I passed.

My veiw on aproaching a school to do this for you is the first thing you should here from their lip is we will have to do an assesement flight and go from there. The last thing you should here is It will probably take x amount of hours that makes my blood boil. As to those that argue 150 hours or 200 hours, experience is everything reguardless of the content your experience outside a 150 hour commercial course will stand you in good stead to be a commercial pilot or flight instructor, you are out there with GA public not sat in a classroom with students doing fixed Nav route's designed to get good pass results for schools.

Good luck with your future in aviation sorry about the lecture and use of regs. Im sure you will make an excellent pilot and offer alot to the aviation world.

[flymarshall.com]

Well-said needanamefast!

Do your CIR with those excess hours!

Any school that says you can't , spend YOUR money somewhere else!

[Tinstaafl]

I think you'll find that you can include not more than 5hrs I/F in a approved synthetic trainer. Check the CAR/CAOs & the notes in the Day VFR syllabus.

The current 150 hr / 200 hr syllabus is not particularly different to the old 150 hr integrated / 175 hr 'standard' system. If anything I would argue it's better - as long as the school & instructors apply themselves.

Poor instruction or only covernig enough to get through the test has always been around.

The old 150 hr integrated required the about the same experience as the current 150 hr course. Under the Day VFR syllabus it is a requirement that the theory instruction be accounted for in the course ie is integrated. The only difference is that everyone now has the opportunity to do so.

WRT to the 200 hr course, I see this as an improvement on the old 175 hr system. About the only major change is gaining another 25 hrs of experience &/or training.

A key point under the 200 hr system is the requirement for an assessment flight then having a course tailored to suit.

What's wrong with that? Under the old system it was possible to walk through the door & start the 40 hr CPL course irrespective of one's current skill.

Having said all of the above, I don't agree with the CPL prerequisites losing retractable & NVFR endorsements/ratings and have maintained those things in CPL courses I designed.

An advantage of the current syllabus is the ability to design the courses how you wish as long as by the end of training the student can demonstrate the required repertoire of skills.

[2B1ASK1]

CPL IF in aircraft or sim

Just a quick note.

In the new day VFR syllabus book it clearly states that
if its a 150 hour course it simply states the requirement is 10 hour IF.

However on the 200 hour requirement it states I quote:-
"10 hours IF in a registered or recognised aeroplane"
Unless this is yet another error from those who sould not be mentioned (CASA) then no sim is counted in that 10 hours.
We must be carefull what we advise people on the forums the worst case being better as test fees tend to be expensive tha last thing you want is to arrange a test and the ATO on checking your log book finds you are not suitable and gives you a FAT bill for his time.

KEEP DONT LET THEM GRIND YOU DOWN.

[Tinstaafl]

CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 5.116 Persons other than commercially trained persons: time spent in synthetic flight trainer

(1)
A period of 10 hours or less spent by a person, who is not a commercially trained person, practising simulated
flight in an approved synthetic flight trainer may be treated as if it were part of the additional flight time mentioned in subregulations 5.113 (3), 5.114 (3) and 5.115 (3).

(2)
If the period in an approved synthetic flight trainer includes instrument ground time, that time may be treated as part of the 10 hours of instrument flight time required by paragraphs 5.113 (1) (c), 5.114 (1) (c) and 5.115 (1) (d), but not more than 5 hours of instrument ground time (my emphasis) may be treated in that way.
(3)
If a period of instrument ground time is treated as part of the 10 hours of instrument flight time required by paragraph 5.113 (1) (c), 5.114 (1) (c), or 5.115 (1) (d), that period must not be treated as part of the additional flight time mentioned in subregulations 5.113 (3), 5.114 (3) and 5.115 (3).
(4)
CASA may approve a synthetic flight trainer for the purposes of this regulation.

[gardiwil]

CPL training

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply I now have a slightly clearer path mapped out