Fatigue Risk Management System (FRMS)?
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Fatigue Risk Management System (FRMS)?
Anyone out there working for an operator who is trialing a Fatigue Risk Management System?
Is it a workable alternative to working under CAO 48?
If you dont know what FRSM is all about check out the CASA website.
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/business/fatigue
PS What do Qantas use to manage flight and duty? CAO 48? CAO 48 exemption?
Cheers
Is it a workable alternative to working under CAO 48?
If you dont know what FRSM is all about check out the CASA website.
http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/business/fatigue
PS What do Qantas use to manage flight and duty? CAO 48? CAO 48 exemption?
Cheers
Have not worked under one myself but have worked under exemptions to reg 48.
Those I have spoken to speak very poorly of the new systems.
Those I have spoken to speak very poorly of the new systems.
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RSG
There was a thread on the FADE system mid last year.
You should be able to find it fairly easily, but my recollection is that most remarks were seriously negative.
I still know some guys working under FADE and the get to look like washed out zombies if worked to the limits allowed bt the system. Does NOT sound like a thing to base safety on.
You should be able to find it fairly easily, but my recollection is that most remarks were seriously negative.
I still know some guys working under FADE and the get to look like washed out zombies if worked to the limits allowed bt the system. Does NOT sound like a thing to base safety on.
My companys' faid system is more restrictive than CAO 48 but is based on "suggested" practice. If needed a computer generated fatigue index can be produced (from a programme intended for train drivers) which rarely indicates high fatigue levels thus it is usually ignored. If exploited I believe the fade system can be potentially far more arduous to work under
Last edited by Fred Gassit; 12th Feb 2003 at 02:30.
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How do you rate fatigue?
The combination of similar events can have very diverse effects on differing individuals. What is for one is not necessarily the group.
All the systems I have seen so far are very subjective and inconclusive, very difficult for small operators to run their crew scheduling to and can be prone to mismanagement.
The combination of similar events can have very diverse effects on differing individuals. What is for one is not necessarily the group.
All the systems I have seen so far are very subjective and inconclusive, very difficult for small operators to run their crew scheduling to and can be prone to mismanagement.
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I tell you what Im glad Ive been able to leave the Bank Running days behind and the companies that run to this system. Signing on at 5am, flying nearly 400nm west sitting in a hot country town all day in a 2nd rate motel, and then flying home to sign off at about 8pm - doing this 4-5days a week you end up like a flying zombie! Fatuiged YOU BET!! Generally there isnt any fill in crew to fly if you need the day off, and the boss strongly suggests that you turn up.......OR.....well you know.
Not a big fan. Sorry guys you can have it. Ill take CAO48 any day.
Not a big fan. Sorry guys you can have it. Ill take CAO48 any day.
FAID
It lets one work legally from 0800 to 1700 365 days a year.
It lets one start a shift at 0900 and finish at 0500 with no limits on the amount of flying done in that time
The onus is on the pilot not to fly if the pilot thinks s/he is fatigued. That conveniently takes any responsibility away from the company. A fatigued pilot is expected to make a decision as to whether s/he is fatigued....
CASA's own documentation suggest that after 19 hours awake, one has fatigue symptoms akin to having a Blood Alcohol Level of 0.05%. And then it authorises a system that lets you do this!
A good flexible tool in the hands of good operators. A dangerous dealy tool in the hands of the unscrupulous.
It lets one start a shift at 0900 and finish at 0500 with no limits on the amount of flying done in that time
The onus is on the pilot not to fly if the pilot thinks s/he is fatigued. That conveniently takes any responsibility away from the company. A fatigued pilot is expected to make a decision as to whether s/he is fatigued....
CASA's own documentation suggest that after 19 hours awake, one has fatigue symptoms akin to having a Blood Alcohol Level of 0.05%. And then it authorises a system that lets you do this!
A good flexible tool in the hands of good operators. A dangerous dealy tool in the hands of the unscrupulous.
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Knowingly flying fatigued??? Only one person makes this decision – the Pilot in Command (whether you like it or not).
The Operator under a Fatigue Management Systems has more perceived leverage on the pilot to fly when the pilot should not – “Ill take CAO48 any day” and “It lets one work legally from 0800 to 1700 365 days a year”, suggests that the pilot is more willing to accept a rule, rather than exercise an appropriate decision – regardless of the time on duty.
This situation is a reflection of industry work practices that have become established in some areas. CAO 48 (or a concession against it) or a Fatigue Management System do not (the ones I have read), and should not absolve the PIC’s decision making responsibility.
To leave a point of departure because of a perception that what you are doing is “within the rules” is a poor reflection of the judgement of the PIC.
How do you know you are fatigued, well: “Signing on at 5am, flying nearly 400nm west sitting in a hot country town all day in a 2nd rate motel, and then flying home to sign off at about 8pm - doing this 4-5days a week you end up like a flying zombie! Fatuiged YOU BET!!” - that sounds like a good enough reason to me, anyone out there disagree. Incidentally if the direction you flew was east and cool in a 1st class motel, would it (should it) make a difference.
If the reason the pilot elects to take on a flight and that then possibly places themselves (and others) based on the premis that- it will eventually lead to a better job (or keep your job) or a better place to spend the night shows a sign of the PIC not accepting their responsibility – yes, it also says a lot of the employer.
If you have pressure from the Operator to “keep going” – walk away, there are probably other things that are going on that you are unaware of that is potentially hazardous, the cost to the employer of continually training new pilots must have an affect at some point.
An Operator that can not see that what you are doing is for safety reasons – speaks volumes of the culture of the organisation.
The Operator under a Fatigue Management Systems has more perceived leverage on the pilot to fly when the pilot should not – “Ill take CAO48 any day” and “It lets one work legally from 0800 to 1700 365 days a year”, suggests that the pilot is more willing to accept a rule, rather than exercise an appropriate decision – regardless of the time on duty.
This situation is a reflection of industry work practices that have become established in some areas. CAO 48 (or a concession against it) or a Fatigue Management System do not (the ones I have read), and should not absolve the PIC’s decision making responsibility.
To leave a point of departure because of a perception that what you are doing is “within the rules” is a poor reflection of the judgement of the PIC.
How do you know you are fatigued, well: “Signing on at 5am, flying nearly 400nm west sitting in a hot country town all day in a 2nd rate motel, and then flying home to sign off at about 8pm - doing this 4-5days a week you end up like a flying zombie! Fatuiged YOU BET!!” - that sounds like a good enough reason to me, anyone out there disagree. Incidentally if the direction you flew was east and cool in a 1st class motel, would it (should it) make a difference.
If the reason the pilot elects to take on a flight and that then possibly places themselves (and others) based on the premis that- it will eventually lead to a better job (or keep your job) or a better place to spend the night shows a sign of the PIC not accepting their responsibility – yes, it also says a lot of the employer.
If you have pressure from the Operator to “keep going” – walk away, there are probably other things that are going on that you are unaware of that is potentially hazardous, the cost to the employer of continually training new pilots must have an affect at some point.
An Operator that can not see that what you are doing is for safety reasons – speaks volumes of the culture of the organisation.
