Working conditions/pay.
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Puff paying the operator? Its already happening believe it or not. I heard about it a few years ago when I first got my licence - needless to say I never even bothered with the losers. Turns out their machines are so crap that they struggle to find people that will maintain them. I opted to go get a real job where they pay you and you get to say "no" to them when they try to pull something dodgy.
Newbies, practice this word in front of the mirror "NO". Another good one to practice is "You've got to be joking".
If everyone that got a CPL joined the AFAP would it make a difference?
The problem is that when someone is new on a job they are usually trying to make a good impression and not rock the boat too much. If you rock up and start having chats with the directors about pay and you are new you will suddenly find yourself packing your bags. The law for pay/flying needs to be enforced, yes by the employees but also by a regulator that does spot checks.
Scenario : "So Bloggs did 30hrs this month and into his bank account went..... mmm $200..."
The regulator then removes the certificates from the wall, turns the lights off and locks the front door.
The most worrying thing about Captain bloggs is
A) his/her selfesteem and B) his/her motivation.
Do you think Bloggs feels like jumping into the books to improove his/her knowledge after all this? ANSWER - NO
Newbies, practice this word in front of the mirror "NO". Another good one to practice is "You've got to be joking".
If everyone that got a CPL joined the AFAP would it make a difference?
The problem is that when someone is new on a job they are usually trying to make a good impression and not rock the boat too much. If you rock up and start having chats with the directors about pay and you are new you will suddenly find yourself packing your bags. The law for pay/flying needs to be enforced, yes by the employees but also by a regulator that does spot checks.
Scenario : "So Bloggs did 30hrs this month and into his bank account went..... mmm $200..."
The regulator then removes the certificates from the wall, turns the lights off and locks the front door.
The most worrying thing about Captain bloggs is
A) his/her selfesteem and B) his/her motivation.
Do you think Bloggs feels like jumping into the books to improove his/her knowledge after all this? ANSWER - NO
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Vjet,
Yes, it is far, far better to be up front with your boss and sort problems out 'man to man' as it were.
I did my IFR with Richard Higgins (now president of AFAP) and he once remarked that a lot of bad blood would be avoided if pilots just brought it up their concerns with their employers in a reasonable fashion, before any problems arose.
However, it is tough (as has been pointed out) for a new recruit to start asking for full conditions shortly after being 'checked out.'
This is where the senior guys in any outfit have to shoulder a bit of responsibility and raise the issue on behalf of all.
The longer serving employees will have a better relationship with the boss and be on more of an even footing.
Unfortunately, in GA a lot of these guys say, stuff it, I am almost out of here and if I had to put up with it, so can you. Cop out, basically.
Re yours, Vjet: "If you have entered into an agreement/contract with an employer (and this can be the shake of the hand)...
In a sense, yes. The first thing a State industrial regulator or an AFAP rep will ask you when you call about underpayment of wages is "Have you signed anything?"
If you have, it may make proceedings very muddy. This is to check how difficult it will be to clear things up. A handshake, unfortunately, will mean nothing.
(The law on record, award/awa/cert agreement, etc, is written down. If the new 'handshake' agreement was important enough to rely on and displace the extant law, then why did the parties not take time to write it down? That will be the assumption when a court starts to look at it).
The basic principal of industrial law that applies is....
You cannot contract out of an industrial award
.... unless it is to another industrial contract like an EBA, AWA, or Certified Agreement. If the person was hired to primarily be a pilot, and the primary function is to fly aeroplanes, and either the employer or employee is a respondant, then it will be very difficult FOR THE EMPLOYER to prove that another agreement applies unless it is a properly constructed legal instrument.
Again, I don't want to be the AFAP's loudest barracker, but all this stuff is taken out of your hands and dealt with by some of the best Industrial Relations practitioners in the country if you are a member.
Burden of proof is on the Employer to show that they have followed all the rules. Pilot simply shows logbook and duty sheets to prove that they worked at Employers direction.
It is too easy. It is probably the simplest legal problem that any of us would have to solve in our private and business lives.
However, I do concede that it is best to be up front and simply ask for your entitlement. If you don't get it, rest easy. I HAVE seen that many successful claims against one particular aviation employer.
Flintstone, where are you? Back me up here!
Mr Hat,
Unfortunately the CASA rep in your scenario (30hrs not equal to $200 pay) although smelling a serious rat, would probably be able to do nothing on that basis.
The recent studies into revision of CAO 48 limits and possible introduction of fatigue management programs has AirServices and CASA stating that there is an industrial side of the equation to consider, but it is outside their purview to do so.
Too hard basically. Flight and Duty times are rostering and working hours issues. It doesn't get any more industrial than that. Yet CASA and AsA have said 'We're not touching that one.'
Cop out (see above).
The hypothetical FOI would love his/her regs and orders and processes to have the same power that industrial law has in Oz. Unfortunately, you only have to read the pages in this forum to see how toothless CASA really is when it comes to prosecuting breaches and suspending AoC's.
Yes, it is far, far better to be up front with your boss and sort problems out 'man to man' as it were.
I did my IFR with Richard Higgins (now president of AFAP) and he once remarked that a lot of bad blood would be avoided if pilots just brought it up their concerns with their employers in a reasonable fashion, before any problems arose.
However, it is tough (as has been pointed out) for a new recruit to start asking for full conditions shortly after being 'checked out.'
This is where the senior guys in any outfit have to shoulder a bit of responsibility and raise the issue on behalf of all.
The longer serving employees will have a better relationship with the boss and be on more of an even footing.
Unfortunately, in GA a lot of these guys say, stuff it, I am almost out of here and if I had to put up with it, so can you. Cop out, basically.
Re yours, Vjet: "If you have entered into an agreement/contract with an employer (and this can be the shake of the hand)...
In a sense, yes. The first thing a State industrial regulator or an AFAP rep will ask you when you call about underpayment of wages is "Have you signed anything?"
If you have, it may make proceedings very muddy. This is to check how difficult it will be to clear things up. A handshake, unfortunately, will mean nothing.
(The law on record, award/awa/cert agreement, etc, is written down. If the new 'handshake' agreement was important enough to rely on and displace the extant law, then why did the parties not take time to write it down? That will be the assumption when a court starts to look at it).
The basic principal of industrial law that applies is....
You cannot contract out of an industrial award
.... unless it is to another industrial contract like an EBA, AWA, or Certified Agreement. If the person was hired to primarily be a pilot, and the primary function is to fly aeroplanes, and either the employer or employee is a respondant, then it will be very difficult FOR THE EMPLOYER to prove that another agreement applies unless it is a properly constructed legal instrument.
Again, I don't want to be the AFAP's loudest barracker, but all this stuff is taken out of your hands and dealt with by some of the best Industrial Relations practitioners in the country if you are a member.
Burden of proof is on the Employer to show that they have followed all the rules. Pilot simply shows logbook and duty sheets to prove that they worked at Employers direction.
It is too easy. It is probably the simplest legal problem that any of us would have to solve in our private and business lives.
However, I do concede that it is best to be up front and simply ask for your entitlement. If you don't get it, rest easy. I HAVE seen that many successful claims against one particular aviation employer.
Flintstone, where are you? Back me up here!
Mr Hat,
Unfortunately the CASA rep in your scenario (30hrs not equal to $200 pay) although smelling a serious rat, would probably be able to do nothing on that basis.
The recent studies into revision of CAO 48 limits and possible introduction of fatigue management programs has AirServices and CASA stating that there is an industrial side of the equation to consider, but it is outside their purview to do so.
Too hard basically. Flight and Duty times are rostering and working hours issues. It doesn't get any more industrial than that. Yet CASA and AsA have said 'We're not touching that one.'
Cop out (see above).
The hypothetical FOI would love his/her regs and orders and processes to have the same power that industrial law has in Oz. Unfortunately, you only have to read the pages in this forum to see how toothless CASA really is when it comes to prosecuting breaches and suspending AoC's.
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What If.
What If:
Tomorrow, a 'regulator' suddenly puts pressure on all operators at exactly the same time to pay what they are supposed to.
e.g. - Make it a level playing field for all operators and pilots.
* What do you think would happen to the industry?.
* Would the industry be priced out of existance (Grade 1 Instructor rates become $100 per hour, higher charter rates)?.
* Would there be less operators, jobs & oppotunities for all (e.g. foriegn students choosing N.Z instead due to lower rates)?
* As a result, would this create a larger group of desperate/unemployed pilots who will go to greater lengths to secretly work for free and backstab others?
* Would this force some operators to cut back in other areas instead - like maintenance?
* Would this force a lot of Young pilots out of the industry due to less jobs overall and therefore by "Natural Selection" bring stability to the job market (e.g. Jobs Available = Pilots Avialable).
* Or would it have Nil effect on the industry overall & bring some stability?
Comments from Oldies & Newbies would be interesting.
BTW: I write this as I have just read two emails rec. over the weekend.
1. Offer to work - 'Pay is not important'....
2. Offer to work off the cost of IRC & IFR at no pay from 155 hour CPL.
Tomorrow, a 'regulator' suddenly puts pressure on all operators at exactly the same time to pay what they are supposed to.
e.g. - Make it a level playing field for all operators and pilots.
* What do you think would happen to the industry?.
* Would the industry be priced out of existance (Grade 1 Instructor rates become $100 per hour, higher charter rates)?.
* Would there be less operators, jobs & oppotunities for all (e.g. foriegn students choosing N.Z instead due to lower rates)?
* As a result, would this create a larger group of desperate/unemployed pilots who will go to greater lengths to secretly work for free and backstab others?
* Would this force some operators to cut back in other areas instead - like maintenance?
* Would this force a lot of Young pilots out of the industry due to less jobs overall and therefore by "Natural Selection" bring stability to the job market (e.g. Jobs Available = Pilots Avialable).
* Or would it have Nil effect on the industry overall & bring some stability?
Comments from Oldies & Newbies would be interesting.
BTW: I write this as I have just read two emails rec. over the weekend.
1. Offer to work - 'Pay is not important'....
2. Offer to work off the cost of IRC & IFR at no pay from 155 hour CPL.
Parties Bound Clarification
I'm still not too sure about who is bound by the award and who isn't. I am aware of the List or Respondents included in the appendix to the GA Award. However, from the award...
5. WHERE AND WHO THE AWARD COVERS
5.1 The award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator.
5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.
6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?
The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2 , and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.
I may be mistaken but I interpret this to include everyone?
ITCZ perhaps you can help me on this one...
Mr Hat: I'm happy with your version of hard yards. I just find it hard to accept when it includes non-legal ops or below award conditions.
After reading the above over and over....
Does that maybe mean that all Pilots are bound by the award but only the operators identified in Appendix A?
If so what on earth does that achieve?
No idea how I passed ATPL Air Law first go....
5. WHERE AND WHO THE AWARD COVERS
5.1 The award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator.
5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.
6. WHO IS BOUND BY THIS AWARD?
The award is binding upon each of the employers and/or operators named in Appendix A; each pilot identified in 5.2 , and the Australian Federation of Air Pilots.
I may be mistaken but I interpret this to include everyone?
ITCZ perhaps you can help me on this one...
Mr Hat: I'm happy with your version of hard yards. I just find it hard to accept when it includes non-legal ops or below award conditions.
After reading the above over and over....
Does that maybe mean that all Pilots are bound by the award but only the operators identified in Appendix A?
If so what on earth does that achieve?
No idea how I passed ATPL Air Law first go....
Last edited by YMML; 20th Mar 2003 at 01:43.
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ITCZ - The regulator I was talking about in the Mr. Bloggs scenario would be a body (govt or private) that looks into working conditions. Not suggesting CASA have anything to do with this one.
Closing shop was probably a bit harsh of me....must have needed a coffee at the time. Perhaps a fine?
Closing shop was probably a bit harsh of me....must have needed a coffee at the time. Perhaps a fine?
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YMML -
The interpretation of 5.2 will be made within the normal interpretations of respondency applying to the Federal industrial relations system.
That is, the whole method of operation of the Federal systems being dispute resolution.
The Federal IRC was set up to resolve disputes between employers and employees, to make rulings and to be able to enforce those rulings.
This means that the a president ('judge') of the IRC cannot look at a situation and say "You, employer, should pay Bloggs $1000 per week" or "You, employer, are being very nasty to Bloggs."
The IRC can only wait until two parties disagree. Somebody has to pick a fight, or make a complaint that the rules made to resolve the last dispute are not being followed. And the person picking the fight or making the complaint can only be someone who is party to the agreement.
As a working pilot, you become a party to the Award when you join the employee association named (AFAP). You effectively say "I stand with this group of men and women."
As an anti-discrimination measure, it is law that if one employee in a workplace is entitled to GA Pilot Award conditions, then all pilot employees are so entitled.
So you don't have to be a member if your colleague Captain Jones is an AFAP member and is happy to say so.
The 'other persons' being non-AFAP pilots, will come under the award by second-hand means, either by their employers being named, or one of their co-workers being an AFAP member.
Any more info than that -- its gets into legalese. May I recommend the Personnel and Industrial Relations course at the University of SA!
The interpretation of 5.2 will be made within the normal interpretations of respondency applying to the Federal industrial relations system.
That is, the whole method of operation of the Federal systems being dispute resolution.
The Federal IRC was set up to resolve disputes between employers and employees, to make rulings and to be able to enforce those rulings.
This means that the a president ('judge') of the IRC cannot look at a situation and say "You, employer, should pay Bloggs $1000 per week" or "You, employer, are being very nasty to Bloggs."
The IRC can only wait until two parties disagree. Somebody has to pick a fight, or make a complaint that the rules made to resolve the last dispute are not being followed. And the person picking the fight or making the complaint can only be someone who is party to the agreement.
As a working pilot, you become a party to the Award when you join the employee association named (AFAP). You effectively say "I stand with this group of men and women."
As an anti-discrimination measure, it is law that if one employee in a workplace is entitled to GA Pilot Award conditions, then all pilot employees are so entitled.
So you don't have to be a member if your colleague Captain Jones is an AFAP member and is happy to say so.
The 'other persons' being non-AFAP pilots, will come under the award by second-hand means, either by their employers being named, or one of their co-workers being an AFAP member.
Any more info than that -- its gets into legalese. May I recommend the Personnel and Industrial Relations course at the University of SA!
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award
I know what it is like to be in a dispute with an employer over pay, and after contacting workplace relations, there is nothing they can do unless the employer has been stated in the award.
It took me six months, and a lot of phone calls, and finally I received my final pay cheque. Money that was owing to me, though my ex employer thought otherwise.
I wish that there was a body that people like this could be reported to... I am angry, as now I can't stand thinking about that fact that he will do this again ... to someone else who was in my shoes...
It took me six months, and a lot of phone calls, and finally I received my final pay cheque. Money that was owing to me, though my ex employer thought otherwise.
I wish that there was a body that people like this could be reported to... I am angry, as now I can't stand thinking about that fact that he will do this again ... to someone else who was in my shoes...
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Out of interest I contacted a very helpful guy named John at the IRC in relation to the various interpretations of the award.
He advised that unless the employer is a listed respondent mentioned in Appendix A of the award, they are not bound by it.
John thought that the AFAP must be looking for new membership because a lot of Pilots have obviously been considering joining on the strength of this advice, I have given him the PPRUNE web address.
Apparently he has spent the last 3 days talking to Pilots and Operators who have read this post. (The forum really works)
John also said that if an employer is not a respondent then private agreements/contracts are perfectly legal, so long as the pay rate and conditions are not less than the minimum standards award.
If your employer is a respondent to the award already and isn't paying the award rate then an AFAP member can do as ITCZ has said in previous posts.... I think this is where the big back pay claims come from and some of the confusion. If the employer is a respondent it does not matter if the employee's are members of the AFAP or not, the award rates and conditions must be paid.
Thanks John.
He advised that unless the employer is a listed respondent mentioned in Appendix A of the award, they are not bound by it.
John thought that the AFAP must be looking for new membership because a lot of Pilots have obviously been considering joining on the strength of this advice, I have given him the PPRUNE web address.
Apparently he has spent the last 3 days talking to Pilots and Operators who have read this post. (The forum really works)
John also said that if an employer is not a respondent then private agreements/contracts are perfectly legal, so long as the pay rate and conditions are not less than the minimum standards award.
If your employer is a respondent to the award already and isn't paying the award rate then an AFAP member can do as ITCZ has said in previous posts.... I think this is where the big back pay claims come from and some of the confusion. If the employer is a respondent it does not matter if the employee's are members of the AFAP or not, the award rates and conditions must be paid.
Thanks John.
Thanks... I think that helped.....
What I do know for sure is that the present problem I am involved in remains unaffected. I'm a member of AFAP and my employer is on the List of Respondents. Thank gosh for that!
Just to clarify, does that then mean that if your employer is not on the List of Respondents you only need to be paid the national minimum wage ( NON aviation related) ?
Mr Hat, with regard to A regulator doing spot checks; what do you think of this scenario?
1. Employees of all companies ( that are Respondents) being paid below the award seek appropriate pay through the Government agencies that already exist...
2. I believe when a new operator applies for an AOC they need to present a business plan. Why not include becoming a respondent to the award as part of this process?
3. The AFAP (for example) round up the rest of the dodgies that slipped through the gap in the middle?
Finally, If any of you are being paid less than the award by a Listed company; Don't whinge here... You know what you need to do!
What I do know for sure is that the present problem I am involved in remains unaffected. I'm a member of AFAP and my employer is on the List of Respondents. Thank gosh for that!
Just to clarify, does that then mean that if your employer is not on the List of Respondents you only need to be paid the national minimum wage ( NON aviation related) ?
Mr Hat, with regard to A regulator doing spot checks; what do you think of this scenario?
1. Employees of all companies ( that are Respondents) being paid below the award seek appropriate pay through the Government agencies that already exist...
2. I believe when a new operator applies for an AOC they need to present a business plan. Why not include becoming a respondent to the award as part of this process?
3. The AFAP (for example) round up the rest of the dodgies that slipped through the gap in the middle?
Finally, If any of you are being paid less than the award by a Listed company; Don't whinge here... You know what you need to do!
Last edited by YMML; 11th Dec 2003 at 06:43.
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YMML
Yes, if your employer is not a respondent then the Minimum Standards award is for you.
If your employer is a respondent to the award and you are in the AFAP, then all you need do is report the matter to the AFAP.. who will take the appropriate action on your behalf.
Once again thanks John.
Prior to accepting a position with a company it is always a good idea to check the pay scales against the award, and whether the prospective employer is a respondent to the award.
If they are not a respondent then this is the ideal opportunity to negotiate your salary BEFORE you start! Be up front and if the deal is no good, DON'T TAKE IT !
Yes, if your employer is not a respondent then the Minimum Standards award is for you.
If your employer is a respondent to the award and you are in the AFAP, then all you need do is report the matter to the AFAP.. who will take the appropriate action on your behalf.
Once again thanks John.
Prior to accepting a position with a company it is always a good idea to check the pay scales against the award, and whether the prospective employer is a respondent to the award.
If they are not a respondent then this is the ideal opportunity to negotiate your salary BEFORE you start! Be up front and if the deal is no good, DON'T TAKE IT !
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Vjet...
Out of interest I contacted a very helpful guy named John at the IRC in relation to the various interpretations of the award.
He advised that unless the employer is a listed respondent mentioned in Appendix A of the award, they are not bound by it.
Maybe "John" was a normal public servant staffer, not a paralegal or otherwise trained industrial officer. It is an "OR" situation, not an "AND" situation.
Trust me. This was a question in a B/Bus Industrial Law tutorial back in 1987. I can still remember lecturer "Bill", a former commissioner (=judge) of the federal IR court, turning blue and spitting fire when nobody answered it correctly! You don't forget those lessons!
IF
the employer is named,
OR
if the employee
OR
one of the employees colleagues is an AFAP member,
THEN
GA Award conditions apply.
Full Stop.
To remove any doubt, the union will probably serve a "Log of Claims" on the employer.
aero979....
after contacting workplace relations, there is nothing they can do unless the employer has been stated in the award.
It took me six months, and a lot of phone calls, and finally I received my final pay cheque.
One of the superb pieces of strategic IR by the Howard and Reith de-levelling of the employment playing field was the introduction of AWA's and the Office of the Employment Advocate (OAE) as a parallel IR system.
The OAE was set up and staffed by NONE of the recognised IR professionals and practitioners. I think one staffer was with the War Memorial previously. It is full of public servants, naive to established Industrial law and procedure, precisely to break up as much organised labour as possible.
Contacting the 'workplace relations' people would have been as helpful as calling your grannie in Kempsey.
Sounds like you had a bad situation, and I empathise, aero979, I have been there myself, but you would have had your money inside a month if you had been an AFAP member.
Next time call the Union, the Trades and Labour council in your state, or the Industrial Relations Commission.
Please note -- I dont want to set myself up as the AFAP's best buddy. Its just that all this stuff is like hearing the Yank PPL's arguing for days and days over 'turning downwind' and stalling.
The truth is out there!!
Out of interest I contacted a very helpful guy named John at the IRC in relation to the various interpretations of the award.
He advised that unless the employer is a listed respondent mentioned in Appendix A of the award, they are not bound by it.
Maybe "John" was a normal public servant staffer, not a paralegal or otherwise trained industrial officer. It is an "OR" situation, not an "AND" situation.
Trust me. This was a question in a B/Bus Industrial Law tutorial back in 1987. I can still remember lecturer "Bill", a former commissioner (=judge) of the federal IR court, turning blue and spitting fire when nobody answered it correctly! You don't forget those lessons!
IF
the employer is named,
OR
if the employee
OR
one of the employees colleagues is an AFAP member,
THEN
GA Award conditions apply.
Full Stop.
To remove any doubt, the union will probably serve a "Log of Claims" on the employer.
aero979....
after contacting workplace relations, there is nothing they can do unless the employer has been stated in the award.
It took me six months, and a lot of phone calls, and finally I received my final pay cheque.
One of the superb pieces of strategic IR by the Howard and Reith de-levelling of the employment playing field was the introduction of AWA's and the Office of the Employment Advocate (OAE) as a parallel IR system.
The OAE was set up and staffed by NONE of the recognised IR professionals and practitioners. I think one staffer was with the War Memorial previously. It is full of public servants, naive to established Industrial law and procedure, precisely to break up as much organised labour as possible.
Contacting the 'workplace relations' people would have been as helpful as calling your grannie in Kempsey.
Sounds like you had a bad situation, and I empathise, aero979, I have been there myself, but you would have had your money inside a month if you had been an AFAP member.
Next time call the Union, the Trades and Labour council in your state, or the Industrial Relations Commission.
Please note -- I dont want to set myself up as the AFAP's best buddy. Its just that all this stuff is like hearing the Yank PPL's arguing for days and days over 'turning downwind' and stalling.
The truth is out there!!
Last edited by ITCZ; 25th Jan 2003 at 07:41.
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Howard and Reith, now aren't they nice people to do something like that .
How much does it cost to be an AFAP member and where do you get the info...is there a website?
Will it limit your employment opportunities if you become a member? Sounds like a silly question I know..just thouhgt I'd ask.
I mean could an employer say "oh we don't want your kind sonny".
Heard also that they cover you if you hurt yourself and lose your medical... any thruth in that one?
AFAP aren't exactly working hard to get well known really are they? I mean I had only really heard of them once I was working and even then have not seen any material on them. Is this because they are a very small group....?
.How much does it cost to be an AFAP member and where do you get the info...is there a website?
Will it limit your employment opportunities if you become a member? Sounds like a silly question I know..just thouhgt I'd ask.
I mean could an employer say "oh we don't want your kind sonny".
Heard also that they cover you if you hurt yourself and lose your medical... any thruth in that one?
AFAP aren't exactly working hard to get well known really are they? I mean I had only really heard of them once I was working and even then have not seen any material on them. Is this because they are a very small group....?
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Query: What would a pilot, who is responsible for Checking & Training on a turbo prop earn per annum in Oz? I refer here to an aircraft of around 6 Tonne MTOW that carries pax & freight on RPT runs. Anything close to $70,000?
