Working conditions/pay.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 305
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Calm Down
Calm down hun.
Take a look back at the first page of the thread at the bottom and you will realise that I am probably the most against undercutting and working for free there is. The point I was trying to make and which someone of your obvious interlect fail to get was that if you are not happy in a role then leave.
Why would someone beat themself up over a job that they hate and don't go and tell me that its because they have no choice. Your the driver of your career not the money or lack there of. I happen to think that the wages for pilot is extremely poor considering the job we do.
As for the personal insults keep them to yourself until you know were someone is coming from. It was merely a dig at the fact that if Bongo is not happy then move on.... Its all good and no I wouldn't ever consider taking someones job....
Take a look back at the first page of the thread at the bottom and you will realise that I am probably the most against undercutting and working for free there is. The point I was trying to make and which someone of your obvious interlect fail to get was that if you are not happy in a role then leave.
Why would someone beat themself up over a job that they hate and don't go and tell me that its because they have no choice. Your the driver of your career not the money or lack there of. I happen to think that the wages for pilot is extremely poor considering the job we do.
As for the personal insults keep them to yourself until you know were someone is coming from. It was merely a dig at the fact that if Bongo is not happy then move on.... Its all good and no I wouldn't ever consider taking someones job....
Props are for boats!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: An Asian Hub
Age: 56
Posts: 994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Work Conditions and Pay
Well this abroad topic if we are thinking globally so Ill confine to Australia first.
Generally in Oz we are paid very poorly.
Used to Fly a C206 for 40 and hour only did around 30 hrs a month so itt was poor and if I didnt have my Dole Check aswell wouldnt of Survived
Then I got job flying C206 for an Aboriginal Corporation whixh was alot better around $29,500 a year before tax. worked very hard loading Freight flying food and supplies. And no one helped you at all
. Probably the best Single Job
Then flew for a Company on Singles and Twins for 3 years moved around alot.different basings, was on casual $35/hr Single $45/hr twin. Then evetually full time on about $30,000 flying Twins IFR aswell.
Then I went overseas to bigger things:
Flew King Airs on contract with a company got pais by the hour for ground and air time seperate rates. Had to help with maintenance, learned heaps about turbines, changing Nozzles and fuel pumps and Starter Generators. Money was USD GreenBacks Tax free it was good saving that for once.
After a taste of that came back to Oz flew Twin Otters. With a Company they paid bare award which was around $44,k .Was supposed to be multi-crew job but flew the airplane single pilot most of the time, 9 pax IFR and 15 Pax VFR. No loaders, no checkin , no ramp staff, had to load/ unload, manifest, plane the pax .deplane the pax, in 10 minute turn arounds ( which was evnetually increased to 20 mins), in 35-40 degrees heat.
After a few months of this I went back overseas to King Airs who wouldnt.
Flew King Airs overseas for another 6 months then got a Airline Job flying Twin Otters USD again, a slight pay drop , still better than Oz pay,but conditions are great.
9 days off rostered, ID90 Travel after 12 months,You sit in the Pilot seat, sign the load sheet thats given to you, crank it and call for afterstart check way cool. 
So really my best conditions arent in Oz at all. But the countries where you work definitely are different. High Crime, murders, lunatic drivers, its all relative. The only danger of being O/S is the fact you get Type Cast when you return, and its even harder to break back into the Oz market.
Regards
Sheep
Well this abroad topic if we are thinking globally so Ill confine to Australia first.
Generally in Oz we are paid very poorly.
Used to Fly a C206 for 40 and hour only did around 30 hrs a month so itt was poor and if I didnt have my Dole Check aswell wouldnt of Survived
Then I got job flying C206 for an Aboriginal Corporation whixh was alot better around $29,500 a year before tax. worked very hard loading Freight flying food and supplies. And no one helped you at all
. Probably the best Single JobThen flew for a Company on Singles and Twins for 3 years moved around alot.different basings, was on casual $35/hr Single $45/hr twin. Then evetually full time on about $30,000 flying Twins IFR aswell.
Then I went overseas to bigger things:
Flew King Airs on contract with a company got pais by the hour for ground and air time seperate rates. Had to help with maintenance, learned heaps about turbines, changing Nozzles and fuel pumps and Starter Generators. Money was USD GreenBacks Tax free it was good saving that for once.
After a taste of that came back to Oz flew Twin Otters. With a Company they paid bare award which was around $44,k .Was supposed to be multi-crew job but flew the airplane single pilot most of the time, 9 pax IFR and 15 Pax VFR. No loaders, no checkin , no ramp staff, had to load/ unload, manifest, plane the pax .deplane the pax, in 10 minute turn arounds ( which was evnetually increased to 20 mins), in 35-40 degrees heat.
After a few months of this I went back overseas to King Airs who wouldnt.
Flew King Airs overseas for another 6 months then got a Airline Job flying Twin Otters USD again, a slight pay drop , still better than Oz pay,but conditions are great.
9 days off rostered, ID90 Travel after 12 months,You sit in the Pilot seat, sign the load sheet thats given to you, crank it and call for afterstart check way cool.
So really my best conditions arent in Oz at all. But the countries where you work definitely are different. High Crime, murders, lunatic drivers, its all relative. The only danger of being O/S is the fact you get Type Cast when you return, and its even harder to break back into the Oz market.
Regards
Sheep
Vjet, I think your information is incorrect. While the award does cover all employers identified in the list of respondents, it also includes a more encompassing paragraph. I understand it is part of a "roping- in" clause that effectively stops operators from changing names as you described. The List of Respondents is still included in the appendix.
The information in my last post was honestly cut'n pasted directly from the award. All GA ops except for heli and Ag work are included.
On another note, I personally don't quite get this whole "hard yards" argument. It reminds me of the tradesman asked why he set fire to the apprentice; response- " because it happened to me while I was an apprentice". Is the average intellect of this group actually that low?
I agree that the hardest part of my career was probably the first couple of years. I also agree that a will and determination to endeavour through all the ups and downs is vital... BUT where do we draw the line?
I believe that the value of "hard yards" is overstated and blown out of proportion as an excuse for poor operators to exploit inexperienced pilots...
Rant nearly over
Finally, a "senior GA pilot, working 5-6 days a week, driving 200 kms to work, for $14 000 pa".
Congratulations, your incredible sacrifice is of benefit to more people in GA than you can imagine...
The information in my last post was honestly cut'n pasted directly from the award. All GA ops except for heli and Ag work are included.
On another note, I personally don't quite get this whole "hard yards" argument. It reminds me of the tradesman asked why he set fire to the apprentice; response- " because it happened to me while I was an apprentice". Is the average intellect of this group actually that low?
I agree that the hardest part of my career was probably the first couple of years. I also agree that a will and determination to endeavour through all the ups and downs is vital... BUT where do we draw the line?
I believe that the value of "hard yards" is overstated and blown out of proportion as an excuse for poor operators to exploit inexperienced pilots...
Rant nearly over
Finally, a "senior GA pilot, working 5-6 days a week, driving 200 kms to work, for $14 000 pa".
Congratulations, your incredible sacrifice is of benefit to more people in GA than you can imagine...
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Aus
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Type cast" Sheep ?
Pardon the pun but you are showing that you are not really a sheep after all by working o/s.
As to the pay issue, I find myself driven out of the GA pilot market as you really need to be earning at least $45k pa to run a family these days.
Pardon the pun but you are showing that you are not really a sheep after all by working o/s.
As to the pay issue, I find myself driven out of the GA pilot market as you really need to be earning at least $45k pa to run a family these days.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Under the Equator
Posts: 605
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sheep G: I beg to differ just a little.
You were/are much better off O/S but you kind of moved up a rung when you moved abroad.
You need to compare the piston work you were doing in Oz to piston work in say the USA or Canada. rather than the King Air or Twotter.
Having spent a little time in North America on several occasions and at different locations - what I observed was that unless a piston pilot worked for Flight Safety (or similar) - they were generally worse off than Pilots in Australia or N.Z.
Try living in Seattle as an Instructor on US$8 per flight hour.
That's not a justification for local conditions in Oz either.
Generally I saw much more backstabbing & more pilots prepared to work for free than in Oz.
Also, a lot of pilots in North America pay for ICUS or for the priviledge of flying freight.
I would hate to see what it is like now since 09/11.
Sheep G; Enjoy your flying - it's a nice part of the world you're in!.
You were/are much better off O/S but you kind of moved up a rung when you moved abroad.
You need to compare the piston work you were doing in Oz to piston work in say the USA or Canada. rather than the King Air or Twotter.
Having spent a little time in North America on several occasions and at different locations - what I observed was that unless a piston pilot worked for Flight Safety (or similar) - they were generally worse off than Pilots in Australia or N.Z.
Try living in Seattle as an Instructor on US$8 per flight hour.
That's not a justification for local conditions in Oz either.
Generally I saw much more backstabbing & more pilots prepared to work for free than in Oz.
Also, a lot of pilots in North America pay for ICUS or for the priviledge of flying freight.
I would hate to see what it is like now since 09/11.
Sheep G; Enjoy your flying - it's a nice part of the world you're in!.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
YMML - The way I see the "Hard Yards" is a bloke mustering in a 172 in 45 degree heat all day long day in day out. Or the character that sends out 100's of resume's, knocks on 100's of doors & knock back after knock back keeps getting back in his/her car for another 1000km. Or the bloke who takes the 100hr per year job just to break into the industry.
Its all part of the job - I know - and that is what is required.
The dodgy operator exploiting inexperienced young people is not part of the equation.
What is important is to recognise that these "hard yards" people REALLY want it. They are different to the characters who just have the cold hard cash to buy a job wherever. Living at home with mum and dad with no worries for food and money is different to living in Borroloola or Halls Creek swatting the flies.
By all means if you can score a job in a good place take it with both hands and don't let it go.
Thats what I mean when I say "hard yards"
.
Its all part of the job - I know - and that is what is required.
The dodgy operator exploiting inexperienced young people is not part of the equation.
What is important is to recognise that these "hard yards" people REALLY want it. They are different to the characters who just have the cold hard cash to buy a job wherever. Living at home with mum and dad with no worries for food and money is different to living in Borroloola or Halls Creek swatting the flies.
By all means if you can score a job in a good place take it with both hands and don't let it go.
Thats what I mean when I say "hard yards"
.
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr HAT
You have hit the nail right on the head. Hard yards mean many different things, to many different Pilots, in many different circumstances.
The one thing they all have in common is a profound determination and an obsessive passion for flying.
When I was deciding what career to pursue I was told, "if you love the work you do, you will never work a day in your life" .
I have followed that advice all my life and as long as I am flying I just love going to work.
There are many Pilots out there that just want to fly for the love of flying, the remuneration comes second... and sadly there are those who only fly for the love of the money and the flying comes second.
My advice to those passionate about aviation is fly and love doing it, the money will follow with experience. Those that love the money, get used to being disappointed because it will never be enough no matter what and flying will always be second.
The worse thing in the world is sitting next to a Pilot for 8 hours listening to him piiss and moan, but it is great listening to someone who loves aviation.. 8 hours seem like 2 and you look forward to flying with them again, and again.
You have hit the nail right on the head. Hard yards mean many different things, to many different Pilots, in many different circumstances.
The one thing they all have in common is a profound determination and an obsessive passion for flying.
When I was deciding what career to pursue I was told, "if you love the work you do, you will never work a day in your life" .
I have followed that advice all my life and as long as I am flying I just love going to work.
There are many Pilots out there that just want to fly for the love of flying, the remuneration comes second... and sadly there are those who only fly for the love of the money and the flying comes second.
My advice to those passionate about aviation is fly and love doing it, the money will follow with experience. Those that love the money, get used to being disappointed because it will never be enough no matter what and flying will always be second.
The worse thing in the world is sitting next to a Pilot for 8 hours listening to him piiss and moan, but it is great listening to someone who loves aviation.. 8 hours seem like 2 and you look forward to flying with them again, and again.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: aust
Posts: 13
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Hat,
Great response I love flying and realise the money is shocking but one thing I can't handle is explotation.
To many of our fellow aviators have made it very difficult for some of us I have been in GA for which seems like ever and at my wits end.
Best of luck to all that give it a good go it is a great experience.
Great response I love flying and realise the money is shocking but one thing I can't handle is explotation.
To many of our fellow aviators have made it very difficult for some of us I have been in GA for which seems like ever and at my wits end.
Best of luck to all that give it a good go it is a great experience.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: australia
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey sheepy I wasn't having a go in respect of employment. It was about comments made by people who may have been in the industry for ten minutes and the s*** their willing to put up with to get ahead. I was wondering if in 10-15 years time they would think the same way and make the same comments. This is the reason why I was interested in their age, exprience and time in the industry in relation to their posting.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notrouble - I see your point. I'm not a NEW-newbie but lets say that I've had a few jobs and flown a few planes- I'm having a go. I have followed your posts on the other forum and can understand that you have had enough.
Look - you have had some very bad luck and I am not going to try to convince you that this industry is a great set up. For some its really bad for some not. I have mates that have continually been in the right place at the right time and have progressed throught the industry without even knowing the half of it. To them its all good. For me, I've had to make each job happen. At the moment I find that its going ok. I'm paid by the award and I have a few prospects on the horizon. What I find is that these days I am loving the acual act of flying more than ever.
Another thing I can tell you is that when I first started out and the money/flying was "intermittent" I was enjoying myself less - was always worrying about how I was going to pay bills buy food ect (you know the drill). What did I do? Just hung in there- in the end it worked itself out. I'm also lucky that I have a strong network of people that encourage me in what I'm doing - which I personally think is crucial.
From what I've seen from your posts - you've had a go. 10 -15 yrs in the industry in your 40's now and assuming wife/kids - sure enoughs enough and nobody will tell you otherwise. The point is when someone asks you what happenend? You can stand pround and say - "hey I had a go". If my day comes, I'm 40 (nothing wrong with being 40 either ) and still living like a gypsy I too will say "thats it..enough!". I will probably fly recreationally from that point. I will be able to say "I had a go"..and thats what I'm doing now.
Thats my $1.50's worth - and good luck to you all .
Look - you have had some very bad luck and I am not going to try to convince you that this industry is a great set up. For some its really bad for some not. I have mates that have continually been in the right place at the right time and have progressed throught the industry without even knowing the half of it. To them its all good. For me, I've had to make each job happen. At the moment I find that its going ok. I'm paid by the award and I have a few prospects on the horizon. What I find is that these days I am loving the acual act of flying more than ever.
Another thing I can tell you is that when I first started out and the money/flying was "intermittent" I was enjoying myself less - was always worrying about how I was going to pay bills buy food ect (you know the drill). What did I do? Just hung in there- in the end it worked itself out. I'm also lucky that I have a strong network of people that encourage me in what I'm doing - which I personally think is crucial.
From what I've seen from your posts - you've had a go. 10 -15 yrs in the industry in your 40's now and assuming wife/kids - sure enoughs enough and nobody will tell you otherwise. The point is when someone asks you what happenend? You can stand pround and say - "hey I had a go". If my day comes, I'm 40 (nothing wrong with being 40 either
) and still living like a gypsy I too will say "thats it..enough!". I will probably fly recreationally from that point. I will be able to say "I had a go"..and thats what I'm doing now.Thats my $1.50's worth - and good luck to you all
.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Cite, State, Australia
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks fot the support out there guys.
To those that want my job - You can go the "hard yards" or whatever you are banging on about JUST LIKE I DID!
I am happy at my company and happy with my job. This doesnt change the fact I think GA drivers like myself should be paid more. I am sure when your there you will think the same.
To the airline pilots that flamed me - I appologise for my lack of compasion in regards to the Ansett situation.
However it is true that I havent seen many applications from ex AN drivers at my company. (not 1)
Again - I am not whinging, I am stating my opinion,which after all is what this forum is for.
To those that want my job - You can go the "hard yards" or whatever you are banging on about JUST LIKE I DID!
I am happy at my company and happy with my job. This doesnt change the fact I think GA drivers like myself should be paid more. I am sure when your there you will think the same.
To the airline pilots that flamed me - I appologise for my lack of compasion in regards to the Ansett situation.
However it is true that I havent seen many applications from ex AN drivers at my company. (not 1)
Again - I am not whinging, I am stating my opinion,which after all is what this forum is for.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I dont understand why people seem to think being paid sh!t money in GA is allright, It isn't. What about the guys n gals that are out there trying to make a career out of GA and have no ambition to fly the big iron?, are they expected to accept that you will have to live on a measley $24000 pa because they decided to make a career out of flying lightys doing freight or charter or airwork?. I decided early in my career that airline flying wasnt for me and if I was going to keep flying I was going to have to do something drastic, what with having mouths to feed and a mortgage to pay, sop I went off and started a small airwork business.......doing what most people call the hard yards or apprentice work.....and am doing quite well, and have been since I started five years ago. I believe that not being payed what your worth simply helps the system that exists in this industry and keeps it from making a decent dollar. If it comes down to the operator not being able to afford to pay you any more than they do, they aint charging enough. I have found that people will pay whatever it costs to do the job....sure I have had opposition slide in under me and do the job cheaper, but then it all gets real when they cant pay for the last 100hrly or put a new engine in when required or gaurentee a reliable aircraft due to shonky maintanance, and then the work comes back to me whilst the others go broke or develope a bad name for inconsistancy.
Part of ones business plan should be developing your picing structure to accomadate all your costs and a bit for your profit margins, If you dont do it that way your just gunna go broke....simple. all said and done, if you cant pay your pilots what they are worth (and I mean by that, what one would expect a professional to be paid, after a certain investment in time/money and gaining the required qualifacations) your business is either to small to be thinking of another pilot or your slowly but surely going broke.
I still do a bit of casual flying around the traps when my work slows down, and I wont work for less than $50per flying hour and $35 per ground hour...I reckon thats what I'm worth and wont work for less....they either pay or I dont work for em, simple. I have foxtel and am quite happy sitting at home watching that instead of slowly going broke whilst working my bum off and waching the operator make a good dollar, but not factoring in my wage in their price structure. and I have noticed that some of those that went for a cheaper pilot are either not in the industry any more or are being close to having aircraft that people wont get into cause they look shonky or have a bad name in the industry. people that have paid what I have asked for and were happy to employ me are going strong in nice aircraft and have a good reputation in the industry for their standards (well..most of them anyway).
Although this is all a small part of the problem with this industry, is is a part of the reason it stays as it does.
I have reasoned that if I cant make a living in aviation, it will make a nice hobby, because thats all it is if you cant make a quid out of it.
Part of ones business plan should be developing your picing structure to accomadate all your costs and a bit for your profit margins, If you dont do it that way your just gunna go broke....simple. all said and done, if you cant pay your pilots what they are worth (and I mean by that, what one would expect a professional to be paid, after a certain investment in time/money and gaining the required qualifacations) your business is either to small to be thinking of another pilot or your slowly but surely going broke.
I still do a bit of casual flying around the traps when my work slows down, and I wont work for less than $50per flying hour and $35 per ground hour...I reckon thats what I'm worth and wont work for less....they either pay or I dont work for em, simple. I have foxtel and am quite happy sitting at home watching that instead of slowly going broke whilst working my bum off and waching the operator make a good dollar, but not factoring in my wage in their price structure. and I have noticed that some of those that went for a cheaper pilot are either not in the industry any more or are being close to having aircraft that people wont get into cause they look shonky or have a bad name in the industry. people that have paid what I have asked for and were happy to employ me are going strong in nice aircraft and have a good reputation in the industry for their standards (well..most of them anyway).
Although this is all a small part of the problem with this industry, is is a part of the reason it stays as it does.
I have reasoned that if I cant make a living in aviation, it will make a nice hobby, because thats all it is if you cant make a quid out of it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 2,382
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
wizard - The operators see that the majority of pilots are there for a short period and then move on. Therefore they think "why pay more... I could spend that money on a house extension..".
Not many pilots consider GA as a career even if they do like it. Just as you said - wife/kids/house on a GA wage ?...yeah right!
One day I would like to have a family and a house (have a long way to go..no girlfriend ) but wouldn't even consider that on my money mate.
Not many pilots consider GA as a career even if they do like it. Just as you said - wife/kids/house on a GA wage ?...yeah right!
One day I would like to have a family and a house (have a long way to go..no girlfriend
) but wouldn't even consider that on my money mate.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: KSA
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Wiz.
Ok then, can we go as far as naming the operators who don't pay award/treat pilots like rubbish? I would be interested to know, as a lot of ppruners would I'm sure. New CPL's to the industry will go anywhere, but if there is some guidance as to which operators to avoid it would be both beneficial to the individual, and the industry.
Any names?
SP
Ok then, can we go as far as naming the operators who don't pay award/treat pilots like rubbish? I would be interested to know, as a lot of ppruners would I'm sure. New CPL's to the industry will go anywhere, but if there is some guidance as to which operators to avoid it would be both beneficial to the individual, and the industry.
Any names?
SP
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to clear something up -- I remember posting something similar a couple of years ago on this forum
There are two types of Awards, State and Federal.
A State Award, like the South Australian shop assistants and retail award, is binding on all Employers and Employees that do that type of work in that state. If you sell stuff in a shop in SA, you are entitled to that award pay, whoever your employer is and regardless of union membership
A Federal Award is only binding upon the Parties to that Award.
The GA Pilots award, being a Federal award, is binding on those named as respondents. This includes
So that union members are not discriminated against (in principle) where a federal award applies to a workplace, if one employee is a member of the respondent union (in this case the AFAP) then every pilot employee in that organisation is entitled to GA Pilot Award conditions.
So if your employer is not named in the list of respondents, the solution is simple. Join the AFAP. Now you are a respondent to the Award. Then you have a choice:
Then, when you leave, give Simon or Laurie a call at South Melbourne and have them pursue a claim against your former employer.
I used to love coming into the *** office after a night run and see yet another $30,000 to $45,000 backpay claim waiting in the fax tray! Usually from a guy who had done 2-3 years with the company!
I reckon I sawor heard of fifteen of these claims in my last job. All of them were eventually paid. Because it was the LAW and it was rock solid. And the guys who did it had excellent representation -- for the cost of $85 per quarter union fees.
That employer has finally negotiated a general above-award agreement because they kept losing in court!
And nobody got fired, and nobody got a name as a 'troublemaker.'
If dress shop owner can see the sense in always paying their award to a shop girl, why not an aviation company.
The silliest thing is that all these rough tough pilots have some of the STRONGEST and most easily enforceable laws in the country after taxation law ON THEIR SIDE, yet, look how many people we have on this forum complaining that they don't even get Award.
The only people who should be on $14,000 are part timers and MAF drivers.
There are two types of Awards, State and Federal.
A State Award, like the South Australian shop assistants and retail award, is binding on all Employers and Employees that do that type of work in that state. If you sell stuff in a shop in SA, you are entitled to that award pay, whoever your employer is and regardless of union membership
A Federal Award is only binding upon the Parties to that Award.
The GA Pilots award, being a Federal award, is binding on those named as respondents. This includes
- Named Employers
- Members of the Union named in the Award
So that union members are not discriminated against (in principle) where a federal award applies to a workplace, if one employee is a member of the respondent union (in this case the AFAP) then every pilot employee in that organisation is entitled to GA Pilot Award conditions.
So if your employer is not named in the list of respondents, the solution is simple. Join the AFAP. Now you are a respondent to the Award. Then you have a choice:
- Tell your boss that you are now an AFAP member and that you would like to be paid as per the relevant GA award classification, or
- Tell no-one, not even your mum, that you are a union member, and keep your pay sheets and logbook (overnights)
Then, when you leave, give Simon or Laurie a call at South Melbourne and have them pursue a claim against your former employer.
I used to love coming into the *** office after a night run and see yet another $30,000 to $45,000 backpay claim waiting in the fax tray! Usually from a guy who had done 2-3 years with the company!
I reckon I sawor heard of fifteen of these claims in my last job. All of them were eventually paid. Because it was the LAW and it was rock solid. And the guys who did it had excellent representation -- for the cost of $85 per quarter union fees.
That employer has finally negotiated a general above-award agreement because they kept losing in court!
And nobody got fired, and nobody got a name as a 'troublemaker.'
If dress shop owner can see the sense in always paying their award to a shop girl, why not an aviation company.
The silliest thing is that all these rough tough pilots have some of the STRONGEST and most easily enforceable laws in the country after taxation law ON THEIR SIDE, yet, look how many people we have on this forum complaining that they don't even get Award.
The only people who should be on $14,000 are part timers and MAF drivers.
ITCZ too true....there seems to be this attitude of thats the way it is we can't change, we have no choice but to accept it. A friend of mine was involved in paradropping where he was getting paid, he negotiated with the operator for a better pay rate, eventually said operator then just 'employed' others who were willing to do it for free, on research he then finds that his old operator who used to pay no longer bothers because they had so many pilots willing to do it for nothing.
I hate to put all of them into the same basket but most of these people who do it for nothing are all the same, they are all products of the bigger flying schools, their parents have paid for all their flying training and they'll do whatever it takes to get their hours up, money doesn't matter because their parents still fund their lives!
If all paradrop pilots refused to fly unless they were paid say a set rate of $20 a drop, and no one did it for free the operators would be forced to either pay it, or close. But we all realise why current paradrop pilots wouldn't do this, is because they know there are heaps of guys out there that will...therein lies the problem!! Why should they NOT pay the pilot the instructor doesn't do it for free..and did the instructor spend the best part of $40K for the ability to do the job? I'm just using para drops as an example, instructing and all area's of GA are pretty much the same....why would someone be unwilling to operate a checkout in a city for $14,000 a year yet it's ok to get that flying a 206 in a outback area?
Aviation to me is an amazing industry, in one way it's an amazingly close nit community that sticks together and helps each other in times of crisis, the thread in Misc about the pilot who had the accident is a perfect example, the compassion for the loss of a fellow pilot in an accident is another.....then on the other side it's the most back stabbing industry you've ever seen....I hate to sound like Mr Union but unless pilots in general stand up a bit more for themself, and have the support of fellow pilots where are we heading? Paying operators to fly their a/c?
I hate to put all of them into the same basket but most of these people who do it for nothing are all the same, they are all products of the bigger flying schools, their parents have paid for all their flying training and they'll do whatever it takes to get their hours up, money doesn't matter because their parents still fund their lives!
If all paradrop pilots refused to fly unless they were paid say a set rate of $20 a drop, and no one did it for free the operators would be forced to either pay it, or close. But we all realise why current paradrop pilots wouldn't do this, is because they know there are heaps of guys out there that will...therein lies the problem!! Why should they NOT pay the pilot the instructor doesn't do it for free..and did the instructor spend the best part of $40K for the ability to do the job? I'm just using para drops as an example, instructing and all area's of GA are pretty much the same....why would someone be unwilling to operate a checkout in a city for $14,000 a year yet it's ok to get that flying a 206 in a outback area?
Aviation to me is an amazing industry, in one way it's an amazingly close nit community that sticks together and helps each other in times of crisis, the thread in Misc about the pilot who had the accident is a perfect example, the compassion for the loss of a fellow pilot in an accident is another.....then on the other side it's the most back stabbing industry you've ever seen....I hate to sound like Mr Union but unless pilots in general stand up a bit more for themself, and have the support of fellow pilots where are we heading? Paying operators to fly their a/c?
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Sydney
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ITCZ
What you say with regard to the Federal Award respondents is spot on the money.
With regards to the notion of joining the AFAP and attempting to use this as an entrapment upon the employer, this has been tried before, with a lot less success than you give the impression of.
Before all you young fellows run off buying diaries and note books, first examine your circumstances. If you have entered into an agreement/contract with an employer (and this can be the shake of the hand) then you are party to a deal and have responsibilities and obligations as well as rights under that agreement.
When that deal is commensurate with the principals of the award, others have found it to be legal and binding on both sides, employer and employee.
About 9 years ago a young fellow was forced to sell his flat and pay compensation to his employer for breach of his employment contract.
Dont be a gutless wonder or one with no moral fibre.... Be up front, let your word be your bond.
If you are not happy with the pay or conditions, then talk to your employer, have some courage and say what you mean and mean what you say.
If the conditions and pay do not improve then examine your options, get legal advice specific to your circumstances then either litigate or vote with your feet and leave. WHAT EVER YOU DO DON'T PIISS & MOAN.
The trouble these days is that too many young fellows take on so much financial committment and expect to support a family, mrs, kids and mortgage on a GA salary commensurate with flying say a Cessna 402 or Beech Baron....
Don't set yourself up for a fall, think smart.
What you say with regard to the Federal Award respondents is spot on the money.
With regards to the notion of joining the AFAP and attempting to use this as an entrapment upon the employer, this has been tried before, with a lot less success than you give the impression of.
Before all you young fellows run off buying diaries and note books, first examine your circumstances. If you have entered into an agreement/contract with an employer (and this can be the shake of the hand) then you are party to a deal and have responsibilities and obligations as well as rights under that agreement.
When that deal is commensurate with the principals of the award, others have found it to be legal and binding on both sides, employer and employee.
About 9 years ago a young fellow was forced to sell his flat and pay compensation to his employer for breach of his employment contract.
Dont be a gutless wonder or one with no moral fibre.... Be up front, let your word be your bond.
If you are not happy with the pay or conditions, then talk to your employer, have some courage and say what you mean and mean what you say.
If the conditions and pay do not improve then examine your options, get legal advice specific to your circumstances then either litigate or vote with your feet and leave. WHAT EVER YOU DO DON'T PIISS & MOAN.
The trouble these days is that too many young fellows take on so much financial committment and expect to support a family, mrs, kids and mortgage on a GA salary commensurate with flying say a Cessna 402 or Beech Baron....
Don't set yourself up for a fall, think smart.