Working conditions/pay.
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
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I get paid rather well by any standards, I dont get many days off ( only enough to satisfy CAO 48) my boss is an ignorant bastard, I work very hard for my exceptionally good pay in some sometimes very trying conditions. My job isnt the best one around and there isnt much room for advancment without taking a huge pay cut. The aircraft I fly aint all that flash or pretty. I enjoy what I do but wonder how long I am going to stick it out. I could never work for no $$$$ and cant undrstand why people do it. Then again, I am self employed and own the company I work for as well as being the sole pilot. 
Mr Hat,
All operators are covered by the award. The GA Award (Federal) clearly states that it covers all operators within GA.
It was/is possible for a company to work out an agreement between management/pilots/union but in any case that can't result in a reduction below the award.
Cut 'n pasted straight from the award:
5.1 The award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator.
5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.
Pretty much sums it up...
All operators are covered by the award. The GA Award (Federal) clearly states that it covers all operators within GA.
It was/is possible for a company to work out an agreement between management/pilots/union but in any case that can't result in a reduction below the award.
Cut 'n pasted straight from the award:
5.1 The award applies in Australia and its Territories. It is also applicable to pilots operating overseas from a base within Australia and its Territories on behalf of the operator.
5.2 This award relates to the industry of persons employed as pilots in any capacity whether full-time, part-time or casual in General Aviation excepting Helicopters and Aerial Agriculture operations.
Pretty much sums it up...
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Operators Response
We have seen a number of valid points being raised and the general consensus is that no body should work for under the award to safe guard GA. I want to hear from some operators out there as to what conditions they offer and if they pay under the award to give a valid explanation for their short comings...
Ang
Ang
Ang,
I doubt any operator will expose themselves in this manner, particularly on this forum.
If they did, it would be the usual stuff.
Not enough profit margin anymore
We invest a lot of money in inexperienced pilots and then they **** off when they're getting useful.
If you don't like it go somewhere else.
Inexperienced pilots create extra maintenance through bad handling.
You're learning how to operate commercially.
Every operator has a different favorite "reason"
I doubt any operator will expose themselves in this manner, particularly on this forum.
If they did, it would be the usual stuff.
Not enough profit margin anymore
We invest a lot of money in inexperienced pilots and then they **** off when they're getting useful.
If you don't like it go somewhere else.
Inexperienced pilots create extra maintenance through bad handling.
You're learning how to operate commercially.
Every operator has a different favorite "reason"
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
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Hey guys, if you can be rolled by your 'employer' on wages, then what else will you compromise when push comes to shove?
This is a business for grown ups, not little boys wanting to play with big toys.
If you get rolled on pay, you may as well bend over and take it with flying overloaded, busting duty limits, flying with u/s equipment, busting minima, etc.
Working for under the award or no pay at all
is a form of theft. It is selfish, dishonest and basically says "fark you" to the thousands of guys who stood firm for decent pay.
Worse still, the people who are prepared to cut the corners on pay are the ones who bleat the loudest when they got a couple of thousand hours under their belts and don't think they are getting a professional wage.
A number of guys who did this in the NT in the past few years got a name for themselves. What goes around comes around -- a number of resumes making their way into the 'round file' after the Chief says, hey what do you know about this guy?
Bummer, no turbine job for that boy. Just desserts I say.
Good companies use senior pilots to recruit new pilots. They want people who will stand on the correct principles, not some wishy-washy so and so who buckles under when things get tough.
This is a business for grown ups, not little boys wanting to play with big toys.
If you get rolled on pay, you may as well bend over and take it with flying overloaded, busting duty limits, flying with u/s equipment, busting minima, etc.
Working for under the award or no pay at all
is a form of theft. It is selfish, dishonest and basically says "fark you" to the thousands of guys who stood firm for decent pay.Worse still, the people who are prepared to cut the corners on pay are the ones who bleat the loudest when they got a couple of thousand hours under their belts and don't think they are getting a professional wage.
A number of guys who did this in the NT in the past few years got a name for themselves. What goes around comes around -- a number of resumes making their way into the 'round file' after the Chief says, hey what do you know about this guy?
Bummer, no turbine job for that boy. Just desserts I say.
Good companies use senior pilots to recruit new pilots. They want people who will stand on the correct principles, not some wishy-washy so and so who buckles under when things get tough.
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I work in GA for a good company and I get paid (slightly) above the award. However the pay is still below what I would consider as "good" for the type of operation I and my fellow pilots within the company fly. We work max hours in sometimes quite demanding conditions (all within CAO 48) and the pay simply is not enough. I have alot of mates in QF and the like gettin paid up to 4x what I get paid and they do about 1\2 the work.
Now I aint bitching because I am not in an airline yet! I am simply stating that I think most if not all GA pilots are getting ripped off because of an entrenched system of paying $hit. Consider most GA guys are involved in single pilot ME IFR RPT/charter in some sometimes VERY demanding conditions, yet they recieve the so called award wage which in fact is fairly crap, compared to proffesional fields in the same age group.
I guess you cant blame the companies we work for all the time. We have to look at ourselves and try to figure out why we have no decent union, no power and no ability to have our wages increased. Look also to the government that taxes the bejusus out of fuel (and I am a conservative voter) and a regulator that changes it's name every 5 years due to its lack of leadership.
The award is not the be all and end all of GA pay. We ALL deserve more.
Now I aint bitching because I am not in an airline yet! I am simply stating that I think most if not all GA pilots are getting ripped off because of an entrenched system of paying $hit. Consider most GA guys are involved in single pilot ME IFR RPT/charter in some sometimes VERY demanding conditions, yet they recieve the so called award wage which in fact is fairly crap, compared to proffesional fields in the same age group.
I guess you cant blame the companies we work for all the time. We have to look at ourselves and try to figure out why we have no decent union, no power and no ability to have our wages increased. Look also to the government that taxes the bejusus out of fuel (and I am a conservative voter) and a regulator that changes it's name every 5 years due to its lack of leadership.
The award is not the be all and end all of GA pay. We ALL deserve more.
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Bongo
It sounds to me like you are one of these piiss and moan type of persons. While you are whinging about better than award pay, spare a thought for all those AN drivers without any pay.
Do your apprenticeship like the rest of us who lived under the port wing in a swag.
Wonder what you sound like when you are bitchin !
It sounds to me like you are one of these piiss and moan type of persons. While you are whinging about better than award pay, spare a thought for all those AN drivers without any pay.
Do your apprenticeship like the rest of us who lived under the port wing in a swag.
Wonder what you sound like when you are bitchin !
Thread Starter
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Well its good to see a bit of healthy debate on this topic.
ITCZ - once again, love your work.
My two cents worth - The award ain't a huge amount of money but when I look at other people in the field I consider myself damned lucky.
ITCZ - once again, love your work.
My two cents worth - The award ain't a huge amount of money but when I look at other people in the field I consider myself damned lucky.
Last edited by Mr. Hat; 16th Jan 2003 at 23:58.
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ASH 767
In answer to your question regarding "who is bound by the award", the answer to this is only the employers/operators named in Appendix A, each pilot identified in 5.2 and the AFAP.
So have a look at Appendix A and check your company out for listing. If your company is not there then you are covered by the industrial "minimum standards award".
The reason why some employers appear and others do not is because the ones that do have been arbitrated into the award by an AFAP log of claims.
In the late 80's the AFAP dropped log of claims on almost every operator existing and arbitrated them into the award. Unfortunately many operators, once arbitrated simply shut the doors, made redundant the crews that they nolonger wanted or trusted and started again with a different company name and it was business as usual, until that company was arbitrated into the award and so on it went.
To those of you doing it tough now, living on toasted cheese sandwiches and beer, don't whinge and believe me when you feel like giving up,(and you will) keep going and give it one more try.
This is the process (although not perfect) that has sorted the men from the boys since the Wright brothers and is the only guard against the idustry & airlines being over run by Crew with no intestinal fortitude.
Around the camp fire I always get a warm feeling from reflecting on those hard times and it makes me appreciate the very substantial pay cheque I have now. In short I believe I paid my dues and I have earned my position.
You will too! Don't be remembered as a P & M, if you are not happy with your conditions, talk to your management, or otherwise move over and let one of the others in who will appreciate the deal.
Bongo old son we don't want you in airlines piissin and moaning, what will you have to say around the camp fire ? I did it tough on better than the award wage or I flew long hours but less than CAO 48 ........
In answer to your question regarding "who is bound by the award", the answer to this is only the employers/operators named in Appendix A, each pilot identified in 5.2 and the AFAP.
So have a look at Appendix A and check your company out for listing. If your company is not there then you are covered by the industrial "minimum standards award".
The reason why some employers appear and others do not is because the ones that do have been arbitrated into the award by an AFAP log of claims.
In the late 80's the AFAP dropped log of claims on almost every operator existing and arbitrated them into the award. Unfortunately many operators, once arbitrated simply shut the doors, made redundant the crews that they nolonger wanted or trusted and started again with a different company name and it was business as usual, until that company was arbitrated into the award and so on it went.
To those of you doing it tough now, living on toasted cheese sandwiches and beer, don't whinge and believe me when you feel like giving up,(and you will) keep going and give it one more try.
This is the process (although not perfect) that has sorted the men from the boys since the Wright brothers and is the only guard against the idustry & airlines being over run by Crew with no intestinal fortitude.
Around the camp fire I always get a warm feeling from reflecting on those hard times and it makes me appreciate the very substantial pay cheque I have now. In short I believe I paid my dues and I have earned my position.
You will too! Don't be remembered as a P & M, if you are not happy with your conditions, talk to your management, or otherwise move over and let one of the others in who will appreciate the deal.
Bongo old son we don't want you in airlines piissin and moaning, what will you have to say around the camp fire ? I did it tough on better than the award wage or I flew long hours but less than CAO 48 ........
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Poor and Disheartened
To all you whiners get off the grass I am a senior GA pilot working 5-6 Days a week driving 200km round trip to work per day for $14000 a year wheres the justice.
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I agree with Bongo and Toohey!!
Those An Boys might be out of work but take a look at any industry, cut backs everywhere..
Do you see many if any of those AN boys doing the job Toohey or bongo described?? I think not
Aviation is a hard industry to make money, pilot are at the bottom of the line. Casa, Mobil, airports, ATO, etc have their hand out in front of the pilot who is the guy humping the freight, putting his/her life on the line when flying in some **** conditions.
Yes everyone has to pay their dues I agree but how come a apprentice plumber or electrician or even a LAME earns more after completing four years than a pilot?? That's where the injustice is.
And why is it like this, cause the general public think that all pilot earn the same as an airline pilot, so if we were all to get together and try and fix this problem then the public would think we were all just a bunch of P&M's.
Anyway there's my five cents worth.
By the way operators can afford to pay more. My last boss wouldn't even give his pilots a $500 bonus last chrissy, but instead could afford to spend $60,000 on a new 4x4 and another $50,000 on a R.V. Go figure!
Those An Boys might be out of work but take a look at any industry, cut backs everywhere..
Do you see many if any of those AN boys doing the job Toohey or bongo described?? I think not
Aviation is a hard industry to make money, pilot are at the bottom of the line. Casa, Mobil, airports, ATO, etc have their hand out in front of the pilot who is the guy humping the freight, putting his/her life on the line when flying in some **** conditions.
Yes everyone has to pay their dues I agree but how come a apprentice plumber or electrician or even a LAME earns more after completing four years than a pilot?? That's where the injustice is.
And why is it like this, cause the general public think that all pilot earn the same as an airline pilot, so if we were all to get together and try and fix this problem then the public would think we were all just a bunch of P&M's.
Anyway there's my five cents worth.
By the way operators can afford to pay more. My last boss wouldn't even give his pilots a $500 bonus last chrissy, but instead could afford to spend $60,000 on a new 4x4 and another $50,000 on a R.V.
Go figure!
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Ang737 its because of ******** like you who are always there to try to udercut everyone else out of a job that our industry pay is so pathetic. Do you see yourself as a proffessional??? obviously not because if you did surely you would expect to get paid proffessional wages?? Go back to flying R.C planes little boy
The pay in this industry is a disgrace and if it wasn't for so many 'dreamers' who are prepared to work for nothing then maybe something would change. What amazes me is there are so many off you out there that seem to think that its ok to be paid sweat shop wages
The pay in this industry is a disgrace and if it wasn't for so many 'dreamers' who are prepared to work for nothing then maybe something would change. What amazes me is there are so many off you out there that seem to think that its ok to be paid sweat shop wages
Last edited by Woomera; 17th Jan 2003 at 03:08.