Life in an aboriginal settlement???

[Sheep Guts]

Huron Top,
It wont be until the history books in our Colleges and High Schools are rewritten and show the real history of colonization, a more balanced in view, that the mindsets on this issue are erased, or changed.
We in Australia are starting to come to grips with the fact that our mere 200 odd years of colonisation wasnt exactly all apples.
When I was at School finished 1985 they were still teaching about the discovery and colonisation from a European point of view, anything to do with aboriginal culture and how they were treated was glazed over and not even mentioned most of the time. Im sure this teaching sylabus, isnt just confined to Australia, I beleive its still alive in your continent aswell.

To think that Australias colonial history is still just around 200 years, yet we did not learn from the mistakes made in colonising the Americas, and Africa or Asia all of whom had a colonisation history going back 5-600 years. Is hard to understand.

I have been working in the Caribbean and Central America for the past 3 years or so. I am quite horrified, at what the English,Spanish,French,Dutch,Portugese and Germans did in this part of the world, its a wonder that any indigenous peoples have survived. The plundering, raping and hoarding of the riches back to Europe just continued on when Australia was colonized. Aussies are still coming to grips with it. Especially now that the Stolen Generations have come finally to the news front in Australia, and calling by Indigenous Groups for an official apology. I myself have no quams about an apology, lets do it I say. To say that its only a financial reason not to say sorry, are a little short sited, we have to think of our kids now and what they percieve as being right as for reconcilliation, eduaction on these issues. This is a World issue I think even in Mexcio now they are just finally recognizing the Indigenous Mayan ancestors in Chiapas, known as the Zapatistas, by starting conversation rather than force..

Regards
Sheep

Its good discussing this stuff, the more we do it, maybe it can turn to actions rather words. Lets hope........

[Winstun]

Chuck,

'Your experience with Aborigines'

There are a hell of lot of white men in Australia beating the sh*t out their women, they just got houses to do it in. Too bad you don't get to experience it.

You once knew of some well-spoken and dressed Aborigines.
How very nice for you.

I'm so happy for your South African white farmer's deep empathy and affection for a very old black worker. Makes me all warm inside - shame bout the other 30 mill or so, young ones too.
For many, freedom is somewhat more important than a clean toilet or a nice beach. South Africa not a nice place for you perhaps.

You did say you were a Sydney taxi driver.
No comment.

[CoodaShooda]

(I wasn't going to contribute to this...but enough's enough)

Winstun
Just for the record, one Aboriginal woman in three is subject to serious assault each year and an Aboriginal woman is 22 times more likely to be murdered than a white woman. The perpetrators are Aboriginal males who (usually) claim its their traditional right to treat their kin in this fashion.
(Actually these were the figures in 1997, I understand the situation has further deteriorated and they only relate to reported cases.)

The Stolen Generation report was discredited by all Governments as it relied on untested testimony and those condemned by the witnesses were given no opportunity to defend themselves. This is not to say that the witnesses aren't genuine in their views and emotions but it is dangerous to assume they were mistreated by their carers on the basis of their race.

From my dealings with a number of gentlemen personally involved in removals in the 60's and 70's, there is no doubt that they did so with the welfare of the child as their paramount concern. Actually no different to Social Services putting white children into care.

The quality of care is a separate issue but there is sufficient material to suggest that few children in care have enjoyed the experience, regardless of racial background. Ever read Oliver Twist, how about Bert Facey's "A Fortunate Life", David Niven's "The Moon's a Balloon"? How about the 'orphans' shipped around the Empire? Was their treatment any better than that given to the 'stolen children'?

Was it better to place the child in care and develop them into useful members of society, or see them treated as outcaste within the tribe, ignored, used as a slave, malnourished, brutalised and unlikely to live past their teens? Remember most of the children were of mixed race and were not accepted as full members of either society.

To our modern eye, the policies of the past are abhorrent but they reflected contemporary thought and behaviour.

I wonder how the 24th century will view our politically correct times. I'd hazard a guess that we'll be judged as being just as destructive of indigenous culture as our forebears.

[Capt Claret]

G'day Chuckles, I'd like to play devil's advocvcate for a bit. It'll take just a little imagination.

I know from some of your past posts, you hold your 'old man' in high esteem.

Now imagine if when Chuckles was a young'un that Bill Gates, richest man in the world and well known for his philanthropy, decided that he'd like to 'adopt' a child to offer said child the very best that his billions could offer.

Imagine that he chose none other than Chimbu Chuckles! You could not argue that Gates with his billions is not in a better position to offer you, as a you grow, more than your beloved dad could with his meagre QF salary.

Would you grow up happy and well adjusted because of the wonderful opportunity that Gates had given you? I doubt it.

I know that my folks struggled to bring up my family. My old man died when I was 17. He used to give me curry and I often deserved it, sometimes not . BUT absolutely NOTHING in the known universe would make me wish for more wonderful opportunities from foster parents. I'll bet nothing would make you wish for different parents than the ones you had/have.

So, in my view, even if there was a level of well meaning in offering education etc to the stolen generations, nothing excuses stealing children from their family and then telling the children that their family didn't want or love them, refusing all content and puting the children for the most part into service. Bugga all education and better upbringing being a virtual slave!

I happen to believe that this stated view, education and better upbringing, was used to disguise the real intent, that of breeding the Aboriginal into extinction.

I know, and you possibly do too, a stolen generation person. The lingering effects of what happened to this person's family albeit a generation or so ago are real, and for me, heart breaking to witness.

[exmexican]

Huron, yes I'll stand by my signature, always do. From the information in your posts, you appear to be a well educated, respectable, hard working member of the global community. I like to think that I am too. Educated folks do not sort out their differences "behind the boozer". I would require no stimulants to meet with you in an exchange of views. Opinions are conclusions based on grounds short of facts, with your input mine may change.
I am not unsympathetic to the plight of indigenous people all over the world, but you must conceed that as individuals, of all colors, it is what we do now that matters. Let's make sure history is not bound, by our actions, to repeat itself.
I'm finding your posts informative and well constucted, keep them coming to us Downunder. Your claim about the system of government being based on a indigenous model had me puzzled though, it seems pretty similar to most western democratic styles based on the Westminster system. Enlighten me.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Cheers.

[Dogimed]

Capt Claret,

What about if in your example, even though the parent was loved and adored, said paid would get trunk, belt into, rape and carry on as well. Which would be the better option?

From what I have heard, weren't white, coloured and full black babies taken? not *just* the abroginal children?

Regards

Dog

[Chimbu chuckles]

Winstun,

I think you read into my post something that isn't there...

If relating my experiences, albeit limited in some areas & possibly biassed is unacceptable to you then I suggest Pprune, or any other BB, is probably not for you.

But please enlighten me on how the Zimbabweans are so much better off under Mugabe?

Or while on the topic of Africa in general point out some, even remotely successfull countries that aren't ruled by meglomaniacs, warlords, tyrants or just plain dishonest, incompetent idiots or which aren't racked by constant wars, crime, famine, disease and tribal hatred.

Why is it that people from PNG, both educated and not, are more and more wishing that Australia would come back and administer PNG...admittedly an impossible scenario to comprehend actually happening but who would argue that PNG's citizens wouldn't be infinitely better off if it did?

Clarry,

I think the comparison you make is not valid...once again it only highlights the bad in one area while ignoring the bad in the other. This is why I'd like to see more balance in these discussions in the media...it's quite acceptable to bash the Govt policies and the people who carried them out but very un PC to highlight the perceived difficiencies within the society that the children were removed from. The end result may not have been great, and I have zero tolerance for Religon and Govt, but what would have been the result/ life experience of those children if nothing was done?

My Dad was certainly a stern disciplinarian and made his fair share of mistakes, as do I with my Daughter...but if I was being bashed, watching my mother, siblings bashed/raped, sick all the time, exposed to petrol sniffing, alcoholism etc etc I think I'd be a lot happier living with Uncle Bill...by the way I've met Bill Gates and been inside his private jet, he's a nice guy...apart from being responsible for the 21st centuries greatest oxymoron..Microsoft works

Huron Topp...you make very good points and I would have to agree that the indigenous peoples of the Americas were treated shamefully...as elsewhere Govts controlled by big religion and the greed of private enterprise, militaristic pusuits of conquest etc...the world was a different place up to say the middle of the 20th Century...I wunder whether any minority ethnic groups were treated much differently by other more powerfull groups anywhere in the world...it would seem to me that we have only entered a time when 'might is right' is a little less directly violent in the last 30 years or so. But now we see the Globalisation push by multi-nationals having a similar effect...same BS just a different 'look'.

The length and breadth of the '3rd world', and I include those portions of Australia that qualify for that term, are racked by every sort of corrupt mismanagement and divided up by experts in making a less than honorable buck. The 'affluent' parts of society throw money at the problems but are told that won't work...in fact nothing seems to work.

Whatever is done in an effort to alleviate problems gets diverted somewhere else in large part...by people of both ethnic backgrounds but it seems to me more disgraceful when their 'own people' do it...as happens A LOT!!!

People mutter that 'there's just no answer'...there are answers but I suspect they are unpalatable/politically impossible in this 'enlightened age'.

Chuck.

[Yakka]

Some of you guys have it spot on, the rest of you wake up.

Aboriginals are the victims of their own culture, this is 2002 people. I hate to say it but, primitave cultures dont fit in todays society no matter ho hard we try. the earth is only so big and though aborigines have been protected for some time now, it will become to inconveniant to this do forever. Ther culture isn't adaptive enough to suvive unless it changed (note the irony in that sentance). money isn't their problem, they have f#$k loads of it. And it's controlled by them and they miss use it i.e for that ceremony eh. what happen to the time when thay walked to funerals instead of getting six milingimby charters. Now they are fat and lazy. wee sit under big mob tree eh. you guys that have been there know what i'm talking about

Yakka

[Huron Topp]

WOW!! I never figured this topic would still be alive, seeing as it has certainly gone past the original question.

I'll not even attempt to answer individual remarks, or I'd be here all day , so I'll just ramble on, if I may.

What seems not to be sinking in with many, is that regardless of the fact that children of all cultures and races have been taken into custody by child protection services, both here and in Oz, the simple fact remains that when aboriginal children were taken there was only one intent: cultural genocide. It does not matter in the least that there were individuals who honestly believed they were "helping", whether it was through education, religion etc. That may not necessarily hold true now, as governments realize that we ain't goin' anywhere. Here, we've survived over 500 years of attempted genocide and assimilation. It just won't work. As Popeye used to say, "I am what I am, and thats all what I am".

The problems that exist now in aboriginal communties exist because the system put them there: alcoholism, sexual abuse, physical abuse etc. They ALL stem from what governments have done in the past. If, in any community regardless of race, you take away what we consider to be the basic freedoms(speech, religion, movement, language etc.), the end result becomes obvious. If you take the future generations away, what are you left with? If they return, what are they returning to? The answer to both is nothing.

Do I like or agree with what happens in our communities? Absolutely not. The abuses, the corruption, the utter hopelessness; these things make me sick. But, I understand why they exist. Slowly these things will change, but it will take at least another generation, if not more. The abuses of hundreds of years cannot be fixed overnight.

Although I may be considered

well educated, respectable, hard working member of the global community.

I am still, in every fibre of my being, an aboriginal North American. That, in the end, is what people always see. People are shocked to know that I don't touch alcohol at all, not even in cough syrup. Anything else that might alter my perceptions never enters my body. That goes to my spiritual beliefs. OK, OK, I smoke, but that doesn't count Tobacco is ours, after all. What I'm getting at is about preconceptions. The majority look at all aboriginal people as being drunk, wife abusing, lazy nothings. For those who do fit the description, you MUST look to the system that created them.

but what would have been the result/ life experience of those children if nothing was done?

They would have grown up, maybe not in the way "society" finds acceptable, but nonetheless, they would have had their own choices. Some would fail and others would succeed. But by taking the choices away from the family, you effectively destroy the individual, the family and the entire community.

Was it better to place the child in care and develop them into useful members of society

Sounds to me as if you are referring to the training of a new puppy here?! And obviously the question arises: whose society?

There is a concept that we have here in raising children, and I would bet that in Australia the same holds true, or at least, held true before all the interference started. From the moment children are born, they are taught good from bad and right from wrong. When they stray from the right path they are gently corrected, up until an age when they can use what they have learned to make their own informed decisions. At that point, we do not interfere. If they make the wrong choices, we will give support, but not interfere in whatever consequences may arise. They are fully responsible for their actions. From birth, children are seen as small adults. They aren't shielded from life's hardships, they get to see all of it's nastiness.

We are taught not to think of ourselves, but to look seven generations ahead, as any actions we may commit now, will reverberate that far into the future. This is a very basic concept in our beliefs. That, however, becomes impossible, when even one generation is 'destroyed". Yet how many generations have been destroyed to this point? Three, four?

The past cannot be changed, but it cannot be forgotten either, nor can it denied. Unfortunately, as with any trauma, denial is one of the steps people must go through. That is the point we are at now. Too many non-aboriginal people would deny what the system has done and will, at every opportunity, blame the victims. We as aboriginal people, will too often deny that any problems exist in our communities, because we do not want any more outside interference, because we know that it was outside interference that put us where we are today.

Within every aboriginal community their exists a small group of people who were lucky to escape the depredations personally, for whatever reason. It is these people that are seen as being "normal" by outside individuals, but in many cases are treated like dirt by their own people. Why? Becasue they escaped. I know, because I am one of these people.

One major problem is of course, the corruption that does exist in every aboriginal community. But hey, why should we be different than the rest of society? If you look at the so-called community leaders, who do you think they are? The majority are those who went through the hell of church-run schools. They are the people that were taught the ways of the bigger society. They are disfunctional individuals not by choice, but because of what the system has done to them.

Yakka's post snuck in while I was editing, so I'll reply to it individually: you know, I'd bet that when Euros first arrived in North America and Australia, the aboriginal people said the exact same thing: they are too primitive, they fight over religion and the only medicine they have is leeches. On the same line, using your logic, the Western ie. Australian, American, European cultures will disappear shortly as well, to be replaced by the Asian. Talk about being outnumbered. Oh, and by the way, forget about buying groceries this week...you're not allowed. I don't care if its your money, I say that you're not allowed, because I don't like what you eat. Thats sarcasm, by the way, but I hope you get the point. Not adaptable? really? Then how come we're still here, and apparently, a real thorn in your side? And finally, when was the last time time you walked to a funeral, eh? Geez, what a buffoon. Next, you'll want to check how many sheets of toilet paper they're using.

To specifically answer exmex's question on government: 500 years ago there was no truly democratic system of government outside of many aboriginal nations in North America. The Brit system was set up by the peerage, for the peerage, and even Cromwell, never really changed that even though he had the benefit of knowing how the system worked over here. The Greeks are mostly credited with creating democracy, but there as well, it was a system created by the nobles, for the nobles.

Then, the world turned to the newly created United States. They are usually credited with the creation of today's democratic system. But, they stole it from the Iroquoian Nations, specifically the Six Nations Confederacy, or Hodenaussane(People of the Longhouse). But, with their Euro thinking, they even screwed that up.

In the Iroquois system, women ran the show. All property and children fell within the female line, not the male. A man truly owned only the clothes on his back, his tools and weapons. The senior woman in each family line, along with her peers, chose the leaders(men), based on the suggestion (or votes) of all members of her lineage, male and female. Should she go against these wishes, she could be removed. Once a leader was in "office", he too could be removed if he did not follow the council of the members who put him there. "Aliens", from other nations, once adopted into a family, had full rights of any citizen, which included thousands of whites. Full consensus among leaders was required before decisions were made, no parrying back and force between "parties" where the majority rules the day. Every individual from the youngest to oldest had their say and their opinions really mattered.

When the U.S founding fathers came out with their Declaration of Independance, it was meant for white males only. Women had no rights, and of course, neither did slaves. They didn't even know what type of government to set up initially. At first, they were going to appoint George Washington as King. It was not until meeting with a delegation of chiefs from the Six Nations, who explained their system of leadership, did the "americans" know how to proceed. They even adopted the Iroquois coat of arms as their own, but changed one element to signify war, instead of peace.

I could go on forever, as I'm sure you've noticed, but I'll leave it for now. The olde fingers are tired, and there are times when it seems easier just to go bash my head against a brick wall. But, just maybe...

[Winstun]

Topp,

You hit on a major point here: society.

As I mentioned before, white Australians have a very high 'believe their own bullsdh*t' factor. They love to dish out their gospel worldwide about how 'society' should try to emulate theirs - that they consider so proudly. Fact is, when an outsider starts pointing out deficiencies in their own, they get real defensive and have some great excuse or pretend it doesn't exist.

For example, some facts of Australian white society: a very high level of domestic abuse (much of it unreported); a per capita crime rate double the USA in all areas except murder (serious physical assault, rape, theft, etc); child obesity and youth suicide -Australia is right up there at the top of the list; greenhouse polluters, the biggest per capita western polluters in the world.

I'm not saying white Australia is a bad place to live, its quite nice for most. A very large part of Australia's position today depended on and still depends on the country location, minerals in the ground and small population number to share that wealth. They seem to equate this to some great achievement of their intellect.

[High Altitude]

200 years???????????

Not long is it?

80 years even less...

Money might be over flowing.....

Imagine trying to change our culture and way of life overnigt... na wouldn't work...

[Transition Layer]

We all know what the major problem is (alcohol), but how do we get rid of it when we (meaning the non-aboriginal population), embrace it so strongly.

Halls Creek going crazy again...

[grrowler]

TL, how are ya buddy?

I see the crack hasn't changed, did you see it first hand? Needed old shyboy there with his "night vision" like old times

My view on this subject:

All through history, nations, tribes, whatever else you would like to call them, have been wiping each other out - entirely. Part of my European heritage comes from Prussia (where the **** is that you ask - it doesn't exist anymore!). People around the globe have been (and still are) forced to forget their old cultures, and integrate with their conquerors. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I just don't think that the things that have happened in Oz are all that different.

I have spent two or so years living in areas with high Aboriginal populations, and I have good friends in those places - both black and white. I have seen shocking violence and abuse, but as winstun suggests this happens in all society (btw winstun do you actually have any real knowledge of what you're talking about, or just what the SMH dishes out while you sip your latte?) and I have also had great times learning about the history and land.

I believe the problem isn't so much alcohol, as not having to work to get it. They can drink any time of the day or night, and not have to have the discipline to be sober to go to work. This lack of discipline impacts on all parts of life. Would you or I be any better? What would happen if only the genuine needy were given welfare?

Basically, I don't know the big solution. However, I do my part by living this motto: treat everyone according to their actions. There are always going to be good and bad people - no matter what culture they are from.

[Huron Topp]

Clearly, booze is a huge problem, one that we here in North America share. Again, who was responsible? Alcohol was used by traders and government to take land etc. Even worse, it was used to keep people quiet. Drunks rarely fight the system. As mentioned, its hard to get people off the stuff, when the bigger society leans on it so much. Attitudes on this point don't make it any easier either. When non-aboriginal people are drinking, they're having a rollicking good ****-up. But, when aboriginal people do the same, they're all a bunch of lazy, no-good drunks.

Having spent so much of my life in the military, booze was a constant. If you didn't drink, you were considered abnormal. When I left the Air Force, I left the booze behind. The basic reason was the huge amounts of abuse in our aboriginal communities. After all, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

Welfare as well has been a huge setback, not just for aboriginal people. Before welfare existed (here it was not an institution until the early 1950's) if you wanted to survive, you worked. All the old folks remember that and try to teach the young, but its a hard row to hoe. If someone gives you something for nothing, most people will take it, white or aboriginal. In this life, however, nothing is worth having unless you've worked for it. People born after the creation of welfare have learned to expect it, and breaking that cycle is incredibly hard. Especially when opportunities to break the cycle are almost non-existent.

Grrowler: point taken however Prussia does still exists. It is a state in eastern Germany and is actually where most of the German nobility has come from. I believe some also falls in western Poland. Either way, the Prussian "culture" is very much alive and well.

Are apologies necessary from the bigger society and system? Personally, I see them as being rather silly. Nobody at this point in time can apologize for what happened in the past, unless they were directly involved. And obviously, they'd have to be sincere. The first step though, is that people need to admit that the atrocities happened and then work for the solution. And it ain't money.

[Screw Jac]

i reckon life on an Aboriginal settlement would be horrendous. Then again I'm not looking for a flying job..so it's all relative.

The grog is the problem in a sense, but it is the insidious lack of pride that is the root of the problem. The men dont need to provide. Take away our often emotional attachment to provide for our family, isolate us and throw in grog and you have a time bomb....those well meaing souls look at the $ being paid in and its gotta be doing good.....Its doing very little

But then again neither is there that desire to change and break out. Ive seen five years of isolated resistence, largely from the tribal women in various communities, but the apathy is from within as well external.

The best advice I can give treat everybody with respect, always brief your passengers, no matter how smelly, and they are!

The respect shown will not always be returned, but you dont have to make it any worse! Who knows you may just be taken as a nice whitefella!

[Capt Vegemite]

Life on an aboriginal settlement?
Try ingnorance , superstition and mindless violence.

Throw in the "sweetwater" of endless truckloads of money for grog, light the bong , and step well back.

Huron all due respect have you actually EXPERIENCED a visit to one of OUR aboriginal communties?

I've seen black American servicemen and women in Darwin standing totally slack jawed in horror at the sights and sounds of the so called "long-grassers" animal behaviour in our city streets.
These creatures got here on a charter aircraft another complete and utterly fraudulent waste of public funds.

Better shut up now before I get a brick through my windscreen.

Darwin is a town full of top Australians. It is in the Northern Territory which is also a pretty tops place because it has a massive rock in the middle of it. The average temperature in Darwin is 65°C, with humidity usually around 190%. This creates an ideal climate for beer consumption. The Guinness Book of Records makes a special mention of Darwin because it is a place where beer consumption approaches super-human levels. The people of Darwin drink a massive 194.6 litres of beer per person annually, and that includes women and children. That is a ****load. In fact it is illegal in Darwin to drink less than a six-pack a day. Darwinnians drink so much that they created their very own 2 litre beer bottle, called the Darwin Stubby. It is the biggest beer bottle in the universe. Skulling a Darwin Stubby is a necessary requirement for a Darwin High School Certificate.

Darwin is a top Aussie.

[the wizard of auz]

Capt vegimite, I dunno about that 194.6 ltrs per person comes from, Mate I managed to knock a bit more than that down (with out HA's help i might add) in the two weeks I was stuck there waiting for some over seas paper work. maybe yo uhad the figures mixed up for weekly consumption (managed to pick up 6kgs as well)
I agree with you 100% on the other bit of ya post, but was a bit reluctant to say so coz every one thinks I'm a racist for making observations already. Having done a bit of traveling and seeing a few things, and living amongst our non reflective bretheren for a while, I still get bagged by do gooders that dont have a frikken clue about the real world.

[quixote]

Huron,

On the same line, using your logic, the Western ie. Australian, American, European cultures will disappear shortly as well, to be replaced by the Asian.

Maybe so, it's not written in the sky that we Caucasians will run the show indefinitely. We're currently on course to fade out because of greed viz low reproduction rates and consuming self interest.

My grandson is indigenous Iriquois in North Carolina; his indigenous ancestors adopted western culture and prospered. Likewise some of my Irish and Cornish celtic ancestors adopted my English ancestors culture and prospered, others didn't and paid the penalty. I believe our Australian aborigines only way forward is via education and assimilation; if they don't collectively pursue education they will continue their downward slide and dwindle away.
Don

[OpsNormal]

I've stood back and said nothing just to see what subjects might be breached after my earlier post on this thread, and what I've read has been amusing, if nothing.

Huron, thank-you for your insight into how your world works, it sounds like it has many parallels with some aspects of my country's society. Unfortunately in some ways it is comparing apples to oranges in as much as our societies having differring attitudes and outlooks at life in general. I invite you (if I read some of your other posts correctly, and you are heading "down-under" at some point in the future), to accompany me one day when I am working and I'll show you first hand what the situation is in a few different communities that surround my part of the world. You can talk to the people yourself, I'll say nothing if you'd like.

Winstun, that sounds to me like you've got Aussie and American people mixed-up somewhat.

As I mentioned before, white Australians have a very high 'believe their own bullsdh*t' factor. They love to dish out their gospel worldwide about how 'society' should try to emulate theirs - that they consider so proudly. Fact is, when an outsider starts pointing out deficiencies in their own, they get real defensive and have some great excuse or pretend it doesn't exist.

Um, AMERICA'S WAR ON TERROR. Hello, come-in spinner! The American government is loosing friends faster than a six-year-old with dog poo smeared through it's hair, as it attempts to usurp the UN of any real credibility by becoming judge, jury and executioner of the world. Sadly, they drag Tony Blair etc with them.

For example, some facts of Australian white society: a very high level of domestic abuse (much of it unreported); a per capita crime rate double the USA in all areas except murder (serious physical assault, rape, theft, etc); child obesity and youth suicide -Australia is right up there at the top of the list; greenhouse polluters, the biggest per capita western polluters in the world.

I challenge you to quantify and give refferrence to just where you dug-up these so called "facts" you've served-up here. If you can't do that, then one just might be given to thinking you might be full of the same factor you seem to want to lable MY country's inhabitants with. So prove me wrong.

[Capt Vegemite]

Ya well wizofauz some these 5 and 6 year old kids are probably drinkin more than the little buggahs are lettin on.
Yer should see the rush on the grog shops just now... the walllopers got the pisstankalyser out in force vege stayin on his balcony.

Dont be afraid of tellin it how it is mate, it could all be fixed in no time if there was some transparency in politics.
The mongrel bastards (black and white)are paralysed with fear that whatever they do may cost them a vote or a quid.
Merry Christmas.