Life in an aboriginal settlement???
Props are for boats!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: An Asian Hub
Age: 56
Posts: 994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree guys about the smell, I think even the guys in Metros and alike especially when Aircons go U/S etc. The stench must magnify, I know in an Otter it used to.
My other fond memory be it a little gorish was the transportation of varied Killed Wild life, ala "it Fresh Kill wa wa..."
I've flown Dugong Meat( including fury snout),Buff meat,donkey, Barra( no ice) and live mudcrabs(Tied)
I myself havent flown, but a mate of mine picked up a body bag(black plastic) full, from either Gove or Groote. I gave him a hand to remove it , I left the squishy end to him, it was a road victim
.
regards
Sheep
My other fond memory be it a little gorish was the transportation of varied Killed Wild life, ala "it Fresh Kill wa wa..."
I've flown Dugong Meat( including fury snout),Buff meat,donkey, Barra( no ice) and live mudcrabs(Tied)
I myself havent flown, but a mate of mine picked up a body bag(black plastic) full, from either Gove or Groote. I gave him a hand to remove it , I left the squishy end to him, it was a road victim
.regards
Sheep
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Australia
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Although i agree with some of the above I must very strongly disagree with the sentiment that women should avoid aboriginal community life.
I lived alone in a NT community for a little over a year when i was 22/23. In that time I never felt in danger of assault or any physical harm from the local residents. That is not to say that there is no danger involved - but quite frankly i am probably exposed to as much risk in any Australian capital city or for that matter some of the international cities my work takes me to now.
-As is my general policy i treated my neighbours and customers with respect and received the same in return.
-It is also very important to retain a grasp on your sense of humour.
-Perhaps the most important tool for success is to get the elders on your side - this means staying out of the politics - NO EXCEPTIONS!
-I found that by making a point of saying hi to anyone i came across in the community or waving as i drove by it wasn't long before i was considered a friend and looked out for accordingly. And on those rare occasions when some charter money didn't show up (due to the unique booking arrangements at my company) - i never bothered chasing up the the young bloke/blokette who hadn't paid. Instead i'd drive by their camp and ask the oldest lady i could find there if she had seen my passenger anywhere? then if she asked me why i wanted to know, i 'd assume a pained expression and explain how i was in BIG trouble with my boss because her young relative hadn't paid me yet! the longest it took for the guy/girl to show up at the office with a thick ear was about half an hour - 100% success rate. Guilt, shame and sorry business should not be underestimated.
To anyone who tries life in an aboriginal community - i wish you luck, but i cannot stress enough to exercise common sense. it is sobering to remember that i know of more people who have injured or killed themselves through risky flying practices than have been assaulted by a local in a community - most of the violence i saw -and there was a lot - was intra-racial not inter-racial.
Without a doubt some of the best times i have ever had and best friends i have ever made are due to my time as "That -laydee-pahlot" in arnhemland.
safe flying, J
Just for the record there is a big difference between 'dry' and 'restricted' communities. nearly all the communities in what was my neck of the woods were the latter; meaning that permit holders were allowed to possess alcohol - nearly everyone had a permit! restricted alcohol rations were distributed fortnightly-greatly encouraging widespread binge drinking - and assoc. violence. my previous comments stand - i was never threatened there - regards, j
I lived alone in a NT community for a little over a year when i was 22/23. In that time I never felt in danger of assault or any physical harm from the local residents. That is not to say that there is no danger involved - but quite frankly i am probably exposed to as much risk in any Australian capital city or for that matter some of the international cities my work takes me to now.
-As is my general policy i treated my neighbours and customers with respect and received the same in return.
-It is also very important to retain a grasp on your sense of humour.
-Perhaps the most important tool for success is to get the elders on your side - this means staying out of the politics - NO EXCEPTIONS!
-I found that by making a point of saying hi to anyone i came across in the community or waving as i drove by it wasn't long before i was considered a friend and looked out for accordingly. And on those rare occasions when some charter money didn't show up (due to the unique booking arrangements at my company) - i never bothered chasing up the the young bloke/blokette who hadn't paid. Instead i'd drive by their camp and ask the oldest lady i could find there if she had seen my passenger anywhere? then if she asked me why i wanted to know, i 'd assume a pained expression and explain how i was in BIG trouble with my boss because her young relative hadn't paid me yet! the longest it took for the guy/girl to show up at the office with a thick ear was about half an hour - 100% success rate. Guilt, shame and sorry business should not be underestimated.
To anyone who tries life in an aboriginal community - i wish you luck, but i cannot stress enough to exercise common sense. it is sobering to remember that i know of more people who have injured or killed themselves through risky flying practices than have been assaulted by a local in a community - most of the violence i saw -and there was a lot - was intra-racial not inter-racial.
Without a doubt some of the best times i have ever had and best friends i have ever made are due to my time as "That -laydee-pahlot" in arnhemland.
safe flying, J
Just for the record there is a big difference between 'dry' and 'restricted' communities. nearly all the communities in what was my neck of the woods were the latter; meaning that permit holders were allowed to possess alcohol - nearly everyone had a permit! restricted alcohol rations were distributed fortnightly-greatly encouraging widespread binge drinking - and assoc. violence. my previous comments stand - i was never threatened there - regards, j
Last edited by Jatz; 17th Dec 2002 at 08:28.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mainframe,
I haven't lived in a community, nor can I imagine ever doing so. I have visited enough of them, by both road and air, to know that I would not be suited to what I see as the depressing conditions.
I don't see why The ABC or persons on the left of the political fence would neccessarily see community life as different to those on the right, or from networks 7,9,10 or SBS. Hence my response to your comment.
Onya,
My comment didn't address the conditions as described by mainframe. From my observations his description is extremely accurate. My objection was to his generalisation that the ABC and trendy lefties are at fault for not seeing the wood for the trees.
All the ABC and left leaning folk that I know, and the number is considerable and also in some cases highly placed, see communities for what they are. They recognise the reality of the situation and also that handing money over almost without end is not the answer.
However in our life times, right wing govts have for the most part held power, perhaps they have some share of the responsibility for the conditions therein. This is not to say that the indigenous folk have no responsibility for their own conditions but I'd ask you this question.
Do you want to be an Aboriginal? Probable answer is no, because they're at the very bottom of Australian society.
I can't begin to try to imagine what it must be like to be born Aboriginal and to try and rise above the hurdles that they face, hurdles which in the main, white Australians don't ever have to consider.
I haven't lived in a community, nor can I imagine ever doing so. I have visited enough of them, by both road and air, to know that I would not be suited to what I see as the depressing conditions.
I don't see why The ABC or persons on the left of the political fence would neccessarily see community life as different to those on the right, or from networks 7,9,10 or SBS. Hence my response to your comment.
Onya,
My comment didn't address the conditions as described by mainframe. From my observations his description is extremely accurate. My objection was to his generalisation that the ABC and trendy lefties are at fault for not seeing the wood for the trees.
All the ABC and left leaning folk that I know, and the number is considerable and also in some cases highly placed, see communities for what they are. They recognise the reality of the situation and also that handing money over almost without end is not the answer.
However in our life times, right wing govts have for the most part held power, perhaps they have some share of the responsibility for the conditions therein. This is not to say that the indigenous folk have no responsibility for their own conditions but I'd ask you this question.
Do you want to be an Aboriginal? Probable answer is no, because they're at the very bottom of Australian society.
I can't begin to try to imagine what it must be like to be born Aboriginal and to try and rise above the hurdles that they face, hurdles which in the main, white Australians don't ever have to consider.
Check Attitude
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dan K
Point taken, mate. You did not have to confess that you had not lived in a community, your post had already confirmed that.
I think the point I raised with the trendy lefties, the ABC and some of the chattering classes is that they assume the role of telling those in doubt what it is that they need to believe.
The average Melburnian would have no concept of the reality of aboriginal communities, nor would a lot of Sydneyites ( Though they do have the No Go zone of Everleigh St Redfern as a reminder).
However, various political groups that are aligned with the ABC tend to paint a picture of the treatment of aboriginals by Australians as somehow wrong, and advocate such nauseating scenes as thousands of people walking the Harbour Bridge to say sorry. If each and everyone of those walkers was given a balanced and inbiased account of what is actually spent on helping our aboriginals and preferably spent a week ( including a Thursday night) in a community they might start to question those that manipulate them for their own political purposes.
The Torres Straits Islanders are totally different in how they manage and appreciate the money that is allocated to them. Build them a nice house and in a years time it will look better than when it was built, the yard is clean and tidy, there will be a garden and there will be obvious signs of pride. The house will last at least a generation, usually more.
In a lot of aboriginal communities, new houses are usually trashed within months of building, repair crews usually have to start again at the beginning to repair the damage and never finish. If there is a clean and tidy yard, it is the exception, not the rule.
The Whitlam era saw major changes in communities, the churches were instructed to stop interfering in their culture (teaching personal hygeine, growing sustainable fruit and vegetables instilling a set of wrong values, "ours" etc). In return unrestrained alcohol access was introduced, a pretty poor trade, I'm sure the alcohol has done more harm than the churches ever did.
By contrast, the Torres straits people have generally moderate alcohol consumption and still embrace Christianity very strongly, with their own priests, pastors bishops etc.
The RFDS probably spends a ignificant proportion of their budget on alcohol related medivacs from aboriginal communities, and the general public has a rosy view that they are a mantle of safety for the community at large.
Before attacking me in "shock - horror" , do some research and establish the veracity of what I have suggested.
The world is not a perfect place, our goverments are not perfect, but our goverment certainly commits Billions of our GNP (over $2Billion PA) to helping our aboriginal citizens.
Dan, there are no easy solutions to solving this dillemma, yet once these were proud people, skilled stockmen ( you still see the saddles being lavished with care, and I worked with respect under senior aboriginal stockmen in my youth).
They are now generally deprived of the dignity of honest work, having succumbed to the panacae of the handout.
They will continue probably as political pawns, with politicians wooing the voters by espousing policies to save them from something.
Please listen and learn, observe and relate, wherever possible from personal experience, rather than from what a politician wants you to believe.
And please, try to reconcile idealism with realism, it does get easier with age, however idealism is essential for change and improvement, realism merely accepts that which is.
We desperately need idealism, but severe bouts of reality are also needed.
Jatz
I'm sure you had a safe and interesting time in the NT community that you were in, but remember the majority of NT communities are "dry", with severe penalties for anyone connected with bringing alcohol into a community.
You will remember the warning signs at nearly every NT community airstrip detailing the penalties for bringing in alcohol. Imprisonment, seizure and confiscation of aircraft etc.
I spoke specifically of the problem created by the curse of white man's alcohol in aboriginal communities. Just as in a white community, a drunken mob has a different set of values and standards to a sobre community.
I do not endorse females living in communities with alcohol tolerated.
The rapes and assaults are a matter of record, particularly in Doomadgee, Aurakuun and Palm Island.
The attacks on females are not restricted to whites, it includes infant through adolescent female aboriginals.
That you lived in a safe and dry community must be taken into account if you are advocating females should have no concerns, just be "street smart", if living in a community.
Your acceptance into the community is commendable and indicates personal attributes that have taken you far in both your aviation and personal career.
Someone less "people skilled" than you may not have fared as well.
Point taken, mate. You did not have to confess that you had not lived in a community, your post had already confirmed that.
I think the point I raised with the trendy lefties, the ABC and some of the chattering classes is that they assume the role of telling those in doubt what it is that they need to believe.
The average Melburnian would have no concept of the reality of aboriginal communities, nor would a lot of Sydneyites ( Though they do have the No Go zone of Everleigh St Redfern as a reminder).
However, various political groups that are aligned with the ABC tend to paint a picture of the treatment of aboriginals by Australians as somehow wrong, and advocate such nauseating scenes as thousands of people walking the Harbour Bridge to say sorry. If each and everyone of those walkers was given a balanced and inbiased account of what is actually spent on helping our aboriginals and preferably spent a week ( including a Thursday night) in a community they might start to question those that manipulate them for their own political purposes.
The Torres Straits Islanders are totally different in how they manage and appreciate the money that is allocated to them. Build them a nice house and in a years time it will look better than when it was built, the yard is clean and tidy, there will be a garden and there will be obvious signs of pride. The house will last at least a generation, usually more.
In a lot of aboriginal communities, new houses are usually trashed within months of building, repair crews usually have to start again at the beginning to repair the damage and never finish. If there is a clean and tidy yard, it is the exception, not the rule.
The Whitlam era saw major changes in communities, the churches were instructed to stop interfering in their culture (teaching personal hygeine, growing sustainable fruit and vegetables instilling a set of wrong values, "ours" etc). In return unrestrained alcohol access was introduced, a pretty poor trade, I'm sure the alcohol has done more harm than the churches ever did.
By contrast, the Torres straits people have generally moderate alcohol consumption and still embrace Christianity very strongly, with their own priests, pastors bishops etc.
The RFDS probably spends a ignificant proportion of their budget on alcohol related medivacs from aboriginal communities, and the general public has a rosy view that they are a mantle of safety for the community at large.
Before attacking me in "shock - horror" , do some research and establish the veracity of what I have suggested.
The world is not a perfect place, our goverments are not perfect, but our goverment certainly commits Billions of our GNP (over $2Billion PA) to helping our aboriginal citizens.
Dan, there are no easy solutions to solving this dillemma, yet once these were proud people, skilled stockmen ( you still see the saddles being lavished with care, and I worked with respect under senior aboriginal stockmen in my youth).
They are now generally deprived of the dignity of honest work, having succumbed to the panacae of the handout.
They will continue probably as political pawns, with politicians wooing the voters by espousing policies to save them from something.
Please listen and learn, observe and relate, wherever possible from personal experience, rather than from what a politician wants you to believe.
And please, try to reconcile idealism with realism, it does get easier with age, however idealism is essential for change and improvement, realism merely accepts that which is.
We desperately need idealism, but severe bouts of reality are also needed.
Jatz
I'm sure you had a safe and interesting time in the NT community that you were in, but remember the majority of NT communities are "dry", with severe penalties for anyone connected with bringing alcohol into a community.
You will remember the warning signs at nearly every NT community airstrip detailing the penalties for bringing in alcohol. Imprisonment, seizure and confiscation of aircraft etc.
I spoke specifically of the problem created by the curse of white man's alcohol in aboriginal communities. Just as in a white community, a drunken mob has a different set of values and standards to a sobre community.
I do not endorse females living in communities with alcohol tolerated.
The rapes and assaults are a matter of record, particularly in Doomadgee, Aurakuun and Palm Island.
The attacks on females are not restricted to whites, it includes infant through adolescent female aboriginals.
That you lived in a safe and dry community must be taken into account if you are advocating females should have no concerns, just be "street smart", if living in a community.
Your acceptance into the community is commendable and indicates personal attributes that have taken you far in both your aviation and personal career.
Someone less "people skilled" than you may not have fared as well.
Props are for boats!
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: An Asian Hub
Age: 56
Posts: 994
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have no quams about Mainframes view, the only thing that tics me. Is, you cant generalise, everyone does it these days, and when you generalise someone into specific groups ie Lefties etc.. its unfair.
What we need is more forums like this so everyone, or all Australians know exactly whats going on about the problems here in our Communities. These Communities are our own you know.
Australians generally know more about the plight of starving Ethiopians for example, than whats actually going on in our own back yard.The media may be responsible who knows.
To backup what Mainframe was saying about the meaningless destruction to property..
In Port Keats in the NT, a dry community, has the highest rate of Youth Incarceration in Australia. Alcohol comes in all the time vehicles get confiscated, the court yard at the Police Station used to look like a used car lot for 4x4S etc.
Only 3 years ago Runway Lighting and a new asphalt runway was put in. Well I think in the first uear of operation every, and I mean every light was smashed a total of ten times, for no reason.
On the surface it seems there is a terrible problem rightly so.
The community is comprised of 16 Skin Groups all put there in one place from when it was a Mission. From what Ive noticed from repetitve visits, is that they have never really gelled so to speak. I have flown in many young prisoners back to the Port Keats Court house for prosecution and sentencing, fly them out again and half the community watches and chears them on from the perimeter fence when we head back to Darwin.It is a sad. These are young fellas that get a real kick ou tof going to a prison, they are worshiped by their peers for going to prison. Its a constant repetition that would sikin most Australians. Why You ask? How has it gone so far without what seems to be any attention. Well to the observer it seems like no attention, but not really there has been some but mainly in damage control rather than the route of the problem
These people have nothing to do, the youth are bored,cashless,beaten by their parents, they see all the great stuff on the television wand want yesterday for nothing. The mentality of handouts has converted a once proud people to a people of desperation. Youth SUICIDE in these communites is rife, I know at alot of NT Communities, now have steel spikes on all the Powerpoles to try and stop these suicides. But this only a Bandaid. Something more substantial has to be done. And I think the old addage" Throw more money" doesnt work anymore.
But it been a few years since Ive been to Port Keats, maybe things are changing.
Mainframe mentioned about during Whitlam times the Mission was effectively dissasembled. Well one community I know of partially avoided this in the NT, and thats Daly River Mission.The people there seem to live in harmony, clean streets, new housing all maintained, local industries etc. its definetly the sweet apple of NT Communties. HA if he reads this, may comment on Daly River aswell.
I agree with Mainframe, that people need to come and see for themselves, but also I think the media needs to show a balanced view. They often show all the physical without getting to the route of the problems. There is allways 2 sides to the story guys...
Just my view on all this
Regards
Sheep
What we need is more forums like this so everyone, or all Australians know exactly whats going on about the problems here in our Communities. These Communities are our own you know.
Australians generally know more about the plight of starving Ethiopians for example, than whats actually going on in our own back yard.The media may be responsible who knows.
To backup what Mainframe was saying about the meaningless destruction to property..
In Port Keats in the NT, a dry community, has the highest rate of Youth Incarceration in Australia. Alcohol comes in all the time vehicles get confiscated, the court yard at the Police Station used to look like a used car lot for 4x4S etc.
Only 3 years ago Runway Lighting and a new asphalt runway was put in. Well I think in the first uear of operation every, and I mean every light was smashed a total of ten times, for no reason.
On the surface it seems there is a terrible problem rightly so.
The community is comprised of 16 Skin Groups all put there in one place from when it was a Mission. From what Ive noticed from repetitve visits, is that they have never really gelled so to speak. I have flown in many young prisoners back to the Port Keats Court house for prosecution and sentencing, fly them out again and half the community watches and chears them on from the perimeter fence when we head back to Darwin.It is a sad. These are young fellas that get a real kick ou tof going to a prison, they are worshiped by their peers for going to prison. Its a constant repetition that would sikin most Australians. Why You ask? How has it gone so far without what seems to be any attention. Well to the observer it seems like no attention, but not really there has been some but mainly in damage control rather than the route of the problem
These people have nothing to do, the youth are bored,cashless,beaten by their parents, they see all the great stuff on the television wand want yesterday for nothing. The mentality of handouts has converted a once proud people to a people of desperation. Youth SUICIDE in these communites is rife, I know at alot of NT Communities, now have steel spikes on all the Powerpoles to try and stop these suicides. But this only a Bandaid. Something more substantial has to be done. And I think the old addage" Throw more money" doesnt work anymore.
But it been a few years since Ive been to Port Keats, maybe things are changing.
Mainframe mentioned about during Whitlam times the Mission was effectively dissasembled. Well one community I know of partially avoided this in the NT, and thats Daly River Mission.The people there seem to live in harmony, clean streets, new housing all maintained, local industries etc. its definetly the sweet apple of NT Communties. HA if he reads this, may comment on Daly River aswell.
I agree with Mainframe, that people need to come and see for themselves, but also I think the media needs to show a balanced view. They often show all the physical without getting to the route of the problems. There is allways 2 sides to the story guys...
Just my view on all this
Regards
Sheep
Last edited by Sheep Guts; 4th Dec 2002 at 15:36.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: no longer on the Pond
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Here's the reality check!
When I first started reading this, I swore I wouldn't toss in my two cents, but I just gotta! I'm not in Oz, I'm in Canada, but I'll be heading your way in March or so. The subject interests me greatly because I am a Canadian Aboriginal, what you guys probably (like in Europe) call Red Indians.
I live on a reserve, what you would call a "mission", I think. I didn't grow up on one and am thankful for that. Spent 9 years as an officer in the Air Force, as a navigator.
The description of life in your aboriginal communities is identical to the way it is here. Now, I'll tell you why its that way: mostly because there are too many damned people who share the same sentiments as Mainframe. It is that attitude that has caused the problems. What in the world do you think will happen to an entire culture when, for several generations, you literally rip families apart? You take the children, let churches do all the teaching, abuse them for speaking their language, call them trash unless they "become" white, tell them that everything they've ever been taught by their parents and/or elders is a crock of shyte, use them as slave labour and treat them as being more worthless than a slug. You allow clergy to sexually abuse, on a daily basis, both boys and girls and then tell them about Jesus. That is the reality of the situation!
Who introduced the alcohol to a people with no former tolerance of it? Has booze been worse for the people than the Church? No, because booze has become the solution to the Church in most people's minds. If I were to do all those things to you and yours, do you think that you would want to remain sober and remember?
Who then sent those same children, as adults, back to their communities? With no way of communicating with their elders, culturally or linguistically, what the heck do you think is going to happen?
Mainframe, it is you that needs the reality check. You maintain the same views as those who shot native people, on every continent, for sport. Those same views that would not allow native people to vote in elections until relatively recently. You might think that out of sight, out of mind is the way to go, but I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people like me who won't allow you to stick your head in the sand.
Will money solve the problem? Absolutely not. There is only one thing that will ever begin to make things better and that is RESPECT! Once you actually recognize Australian Aborigines as human beings, with the earth's oldest continuous culture, then and only then, will the situation improve. Both for them and for you.
Do you think people enjoy living the way they do? You, and others like you, seem to find it disgustingly easy to forget who put them on their "missions". Who destroyed their culture. Who refuses to have them as part of "your" community.
What really bugs me is people quoting "per capita" spending. Thats a crock if I've ever heard one. What ends up on the news or in the House is that "we are spending $$ per capita" on aboriginal people. Only problem is, that they don't mention that normally 50-70% of that is actually going to the non-aboriginal bureaucrats.
I would suggest, sir, that you follow your own words, because without a doubt, my experiences are much closer to the truth than your own. As for research, I don't need to do any, because my research has been my life.
Man, this almost as bad as saying "well, some of my best friends are black (jewish, muslim etc.)
pa28capt: listen to those who have given GOOD advice. Have an open mind and leave any preconceptions behind. Seek out the elders, as suggested, and earn their friendship and respect. After that, all else will fall into place. Just remember, you are no different from them, not better, not worse. Just as someone who had the benefit(I'm assuming) of growing up in a system meant to support and not destroy.
My apologies for butting in, but their are times when I just can't keep my big mouth shut One of our old sayings goes like this: a man who lives without self-respect, is only pretending to live.
I live on a reserve, what you would call a "mission", I think. I didn't grow up on one and am thankful for that. Spent 9 years as an officer in the Air Force, as a navigator.
The description of life in your aboriginal communities is identical to the way it is here. Now, I'll tell you why its that way: mostly because there are too many damned people who share the same sentiments as Mainframe. It is that attitude that has caused the problems. What in the world do you think will happen to an entire culture when, for several generations, you literally rip families apart? You take the children, let churches do all the teaching, abuse them for speaking their language, call them trash unless they "become" white, tell them that everything they've ever been taught by their parents and/or elders is a crock of shyte, use them as slave labour and treat them as being more worthless than a slug. You allow clergy to sexually abuse, on a daily basis, both boys and girls and then tell them about Jesus. That is the reality of the situation!
Who introduced the alcohol to a people with no former tolerance of it? Has booze been worse for the people than the Church? No, because booze has become the solution to the Church in most people's minds. If I were to do all those things to you and yours, do you think that you would want to remain sober and remember?
Who then sent those same children, as adults, back to their communities? With no way of communicating with their elders, culturally or linguistically, what the heck do you think is going to happen?
Mainframe, it is you that needs the reality check. You maintain the same views as those who shot native people, on every continent, for sport. Those same views that would not allow native people to vote in elections until relatively recently. You might think that out of sight, out of mind is the way to go, but I'll guarantee that there are plenty of people like me who won't allow you to stick your head in the sand.
Will money solve the problem? Absolutely not. There is only one thing that will ever begin to make things better and that is RESPECT! Once you actually recognize Australian Aborigines as human beings, with the earth's oldest continuous culture, then and only then, will the situation improve. Both for them and for you.
Do you think people enjoy living the way they do? You, and others like you, seem to find it disgustingly easy to forget who put them on their "missions". Who destroyed their culture. Who refuses to have them as part of "your" community.
What really bugs me is people quoting "per capita" spending. Thats a crock if I've ever heard one. What ends up on the news or in the House is that "we are spending $$ per capita" on aboriginal people. Only problem is, that they don't mention that normally 50-70% of that is actually going to the non-aboriginal bureaucrats.
Please listen and learn, observe and relate, wherever possible from personal experience, rather than from what a politician wants you to believe.
Dan, there are no easy solutions to solving this dillemma, yet once these were proud people, skilled stockmen ( you still see the saddles being lavished with care, and I worked with respect under senior aboriginal stockmen in my youth).
pa28capt: listen to those who have given GOOD advice. Have an open mind and leave any preconceptions behind. Seek out the elders, as suggested, and earn their friendship and respect. After that, all else will fall into place. Just remember, you are no different from them, not better, not worse. Just as someone who had the benefit(I'm assuming) of growing up in a system meant to support and not destroy.
My apologies for butting in, but their are times when I just can't keep my big mouth shut
One of our old sayings goes like this: a man who lives without self-respect, is only pretending to live.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere Hot n Sandy
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some interesting thoughts coming out here - as we all agree that there those that 'Have actually lived there' and those that think they have.
There are communities that do well, others that do badly - like in any big city.
My time in the Territory has made me change my views several times. I shall be leaving with a mixture of pity, frustration, and anger.
I've seen many things that brought me close to tears, others that make me want to resort to slapping an individual. I'm not into politics and I won't even start to mention the waste, both in human suffering and financially.
Like most of the elders say - you have to want to help yourself. The 'young uns' are not embracing the culture like the elders and this is being lost to alcohol, violence, and greed. I'm also still seeing outsiders using the plight of communities to feather their own nest (the ANGER part above).
Pointing the finger of blame, or throwing money aren't going to help.
If you get the chance to go out there - GO, but with an open mind. Enjoy the beauty, the culture. Be strong and remember that you're not there to change the community.
There are communities that do well, others that do badly - like in any big city.
My time in the Territory has made me change my views several times. I shall be leaving with a mixture of pity, frustration, and anger.
I've seen many things that brought me close to tears, others that make me want to resort to slapping an individual. I'm not into politics and I won't even start to mention the waste, both in human suffering and financially.
Like most of the elders say - you have to want to help yourself. The 'young uns' are not embracing the culture like the elders and this is being lost to alcohol, violence, and greed. I'm also still seeing outsiders using the plight of communities to feather their own nest (the ANGER part above).
Pointing the finger of blame, or throwing money aren't going to help.
If you get the chance to go out there - GO, but with an open mind. Enjoy the beauty, the culture. Be strong and remember that you're not there to change the community.
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Dunnunda & Godzone
Age: 74
Posts: 4,275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Huron Topp
Thank you for your contribution and perspective.
Your experience almost exactly mirrors our Aboriginal population which is not surprising since both countries were colonised by the British and other Europeans.
Thank you for your contribution and perspective.
Your experience almost exactly mirrors our Aboriginal population which is not surprising since both countries were colonised by the British and other Europeans.
I can't believe it, no-one has mentioned those mangy, disease ridden 'community dogs' that roam around in packs.
When I think of 'community dogs', I think of shotguns.
hoss , Class of the Kimberley 94 - 00
When I think of 'community dogs', I think of shotguns.
hoss , Class of the Kimberley 94 - 00
Bugsmasherdriverandjediknite
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Bai, mi go long hap na kisim sampla samting.
Posts: 2,849
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I note with interest that there is a fair bit being said by people who have very little Idea of the actual facts of the story........ but I aint sticking my two bits in, because one is labeled a racist by people who dont have a clue, on this site for making observations.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: planit
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flew several years for a half Canadian Indian chief pilot. Never before met such a hardcore closet racist. With several African negroes under his employ, once seriously confided in me that if a black ever had sex (consentual) with his mature age daughter (late 20s), he would put a bullet in their head, whatever the consequences for him.
Topp, who should the Aboriginal respect?
The white man who has served and worked with, for and in the outback communities, is somewhat honest and open of his dislike of the aboriginal culture today and his own system that feeds it.
Or the white man that hides in his urban glasshouse, gratified by a sunday afternoon march for people he would be horrified to ever have move in the house next door.
We are nearly all racists to some extent, but let the truth be out that we can face it and question it.
Topp, who should the Aboriginal respect?
The white man who has served and worked with, for and in the outback communities, is somewhat honest and open of his dislike of the aboriginal culture today and his own system that feeds it.
Or the white man that hides in his urban glasshouse, gratified by a sunday afternoon march for people he would be horrified to ever have move in the house next door.
We are nearly all racists to some extent, but let the truth be out that we can face it and question it.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: no longer on the Pond
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Respect
Winstun,
clearly its a two-way street. Nowhere did I say that Aboriginal people were without racism. For the most part, its the system that has done it to them. And, strangely enough, those who are not full-bloods are the ones who have the most hatred for others, probably because they hate themselves. Government systems have created a "them and us" situation, based on what they call "blood quantum". Personally, I have never met a full-blood who is a racist, while I know of many, if not most, mixed-bloods who are.
Its something I experience every day of my life. I'm a breed, with just about every "old world" mixture in me: english, irish, scottish, french, and of course, the "indian". In my case Huron Iroquois. Alot of my old white friends could never figure out why I wanted to be native, and many indians have called me a "wanabee' (because I'm not "registered"). I am what I am, simple enough. If I deny one part of me, then I'm dishonouring my entire family, white or indian. My wife is as full-blooded as any member of her Nation, the Mi'kmaq, but she still has some french and even a squirt of black in her from many generations ago.
I don't know of any native person here who has any time for the type of person you mention, the closet racist. You know, its very much like a sunday Christian. You know the type: they go to church every sunday, but for the rest of the week they are the most "evil" individual you could ever meet. They kick dogs, cheat on their taxes or wives etc.
I don't think anyone would go work in an aboriginal community just for the money, pilot or otherwise. Someone mentioned that they found out they were racist only after going to work in an aboriginal community. Thats what happens most often. Once you're there, you see the situation as it really is, and it doesn't take long to understand the cause.
I think your use of the phrase "aboriginal culture of today", with the emphasis on "today", says it all. I have no respect for the culture of today,because it is based on Eurocentric values, not the values of our ancestors. Its based on money and division, them and us. What we can get from them, and what they owe us. Thats definately NOT how I want my kids to grow up.
I have the greatest respect for people who live and work in any remote community, aboriginal or otherwise. Regardless of skin colour, the life itself is the hardest of any. The last thing people need to contend with is racism.
Personally, I think the "do-gooders", those who have big mouths but have never been to, nor lived in, an aboriginal community should put up or shut up. They should get off their soapboxes and actually go live in a community, even if its only for a short time. That would definately bring out their true colours, don't you think?
I know that I haven't labeled anyone a racist here. I wouldn't do that unless I actually met them.
Fact is, most of the comments made are equally as true here, as they are over there. We have the same booze problems, the same housing problems, the same abuse problems. Heck, in the community my wife originally comes from, there is not a single woman over the age of 30 who not been sexually abused. Actually, I doubt that there is a single person who hasn't been, male or female, and most often by a close relative.
That is what the system has done. My wife, who was taken away and adopted into a white family (one of the Lost Generations) went through the same crap, not in her community, but in the foster homes she lived in. Her and a younger sister actually lived in a closet for almost a year, only coming out when the social service people showed up for a visit. They were only 7 and 4 at the time.
Anyone, of whatever skin colour or culture, who supports that kind of system, should be shot. On the other hand, I think it would be better to force them to live that way first, a long-suffering death...
I've always seen people involved in aviation as being true revolutionaries, always pushing the limits of whatever they are involved in. Maybe we've started something here? I know that this forum is certainly the last place I ever thought I'd be writing a little dissertation on life in an aboriginal community. Zoomies are definately a strange bunch, aren't we, no matter where we come from?
clearly its a two-way street. Nowhere did I say that Aboriginal people were without racism. For the most part, its the system that has done it to them. And, strangely enough, those who are not full-bloods are the ones who have the most hatred for others, probably because they hate themselves. Government systems have created a "them and us" situation, based on what they call "blood quantum". Personally, I have never met a full-blood who is a racist, while I know of many, if not most, mixed-bloods who are.
Its something I experience every day of my life. I'm a breed, with just about every "old world" mixture in me: english, irish, scottish, french, and of course, the "indian". In my case Huron Iroquois. Alot of my old white friends could never figure out why I wanted to be native, and many indians have called me a "wanabee' (because I'm not "registered"). I am what I am, simple enough. If I deny one part of me, then I'm dishonouring my entire family, white or indian. My wife is as full-blooded as any member of her Nation, the Mi'kmaq, but she still has some french and even a squirt of black in her from many generations ago.
I don't know of any native person here who has any time for the type of person you mention, the closet racist. You know, its very much like a sunday Christian. You know the type: they go to church every sunday, but for the rest of the week they are the most "evil" individual you could ever meet. They kick dogs, cheat on their taxes or wives etc.
I don't think anyone would go work in an aboriginal community just for the money, pilot or otherwise. Someone mentioned that they found out they were racist only after going to work in an aboriginal community. Thats what happens most often. Once you're there, you see the situation as it really is, and it doesn't take long to understand the cause.
I think your use of the phrase "aboriginal culture of today", with the emphasis on "today", says it all. I have no respect for the culture of today,because it is based on Eurocentric values, not the values of our ancestors. Its based on money and division, them and us. What we can get from them, and what they owe us. Thats definately NOT how I want my kids to grow up.
I have the greatest respect for people who live and work in any remote community, aboriginal or otherwise. Regardless of skin colour, the life itself is the hardest of any. The last thing people need to contend with is racism.
Personally, I think the "do-gooders", those who have big mouths but have never been to, nor lived in, an aboriginal community should put up or shut up. They should get off their soapboxes and actually go live in a community, even if its only for a short time. That would definately bring out their true colours, don't you think?
I know that I haven't labeled anyone a racist here. I wouldn't do that unless I actually met them.
Fact is, most of the comments made are equally as true here, as they are over there. We have the same booze problems, the same housing problems, the same abuse problems. Heck, in the community my wife originally comes from, there is not a single woman over the age of 30 who not been sexually abused. Actually, I doubt that there is a single person who hasn't been, male or female, and most often by a close relative. That is what the system has done. My wife, who was taken away and adopted into a white family (one of the Lost Generations) went through the same crap, not in her community, but in the foster homes she lived in. Her and a younger sister actually lived in a closet for almost a year, only coming out when the social service people showed up for a visit. They were only 7 and 4 at the time.Anyone, of whatever skin colour or culture, who supports that kind of system, should be shot. On the other hand, I think it would be better to force them to live that way first, a long-suffering death...
I've always seen people involved in aviation as being true revolutionaries, always pushing the limits of whatever they are involved in. Maybe we've started something here? I know that this forum is certainly the last place I ever thought I'd be writing a little dissertation on life in an aboriginal community. Zoomies are definately a strange bunch, aren't we, no matter where we come from?
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: planit
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Topp, I see all your points.
What I see is the general Australian population and current generations think they have ridded themselves of the injustices to the Aborigines. A sunny afternoon march to most, is a selfish feel good thing. These same people as I said, would never live amoung the Aborigine. They vote year in, year out for the same racist governments, a reflection of themselves.
As an Australian that has lived in many places, I clearly see most of my countrymen have a 'believe your own bullsh*t view of themselves, very different from reality. For example, many white Aussies see themselves as tough, outdoor, adventure types. But for many, the reality is, the closest that they get to adventure in a normal day, is a latte at the corner coffee shop or watching Steve Irwin on the TV.
Most would say they care about the Aborigines, and march to prove it. But the reality is, they would rather remain ignorant and deaf to any real problems of today. 'It's just not nice to talk about.' They are more interested who the soap TV actors have been bonking of late. You only need to see the obsession here with cheap gossip, whether it be reading the papers, women's magazines, or pathetic feel good TV shows. It's all the same sh*t, just keeps going around again.
You are right, people should have to spend at least a few days out in the communities and get a reality check. They won't like it.
What I see is the general Australian population and current generations think they have ridded themselves of the injustices to the Aborigines. A sunny afternoon march to most, is a selfish feel good thing. These same people as I said, would never live amoung the Aborigine. They vote year in, year out for the same racist governments, a reflection of themselves.
As an Australian that has lived in many places, I clearly see most of my countrymen have a 'believe your own bullsh*t view of themselves, very different from reality. For example, many white Aussies see themselves as tough, outdoor, adventure types. But for many, the reality is, the closest that they get to adventure in a normal day, is a latte at the corner coffee shop or watching Steve Irwin on the TV.
Most would say they care about the Aborigines, and march to prove it. But the reality is, they would rather remain ignorant and deaf to any real problems of today. 'It's just not nice to talk about.' They are more interested who the soap TV actors have been bonking of late. You only need to see the obsession here with cheap gossip, whether it be reading the papers, women's magazines, or pathetic feel good TV shows. It's all the same sh*t, just keeps going around again.
You are right, people should have to spend at least a few days out in the communities and get a reality check. They won't like it.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: North son, I say go North..........
Posts: 599
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep living on a community you are often the subject of racism. Hey you white *unt... But there is really no posion behind it. Yes it is the half casts that can potentially cause huge problems. I know of a bloke whom 20 years ago would have flattened you if you called him a blackfella at school, now if you called him a white fella he would wanna deck ya... See he is using his color to his benefit, and why wouldn't you???
It is amazing when you talk to the people that "care" about the plight of the Aborigine, it is so easy to get into a full on argument when you put across your point of view. See it is so easy sitting in Sydney "caring" doing jack sh*t really.
I don't know the answer, I am tipping I could become very wealthy if I did... I do know that in the NT I have seen some remarkable changes in commuities. Lets face it, it boils down to education... Oenpelli started it with the pool, no school, no pool and didn't the class attendances rise...
It is amazing when you talk to the people that "care" about the plight of the Aborigine, it is so easy to get into a full on argument when you put across your point of view. See it is so easy sitting in Sydney "caring" doing jack sh*t really.
I don't know the answer, I am tipping I could become very wealthy if I did... I do know that in the NT I have seen some remarkable changes in commuities. Lets face it, it boils down to education... Oenpelli started it with the pool, no school, no pool and didn't the class attendances rise...
I thought this might have some relevance if anyone was interested.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...379836054.html
Man who lives in two worlds
By Steve Meacham
December 11 2002
You can imagine the controversy if Nicole Kidman or Russell Crowe was shown smoking marijuana on the national broadcaster. But this week one of Australia's best-known actors will be seen smoking a bong on an ABC documentary - and no one will turn a hair.
Since 1971, when he became an overnight sensation in Walkabout, Nicholas Roeg's classic about a clash of cultures, David Gulpilil has been the world's favourite Aboriginal star. His credits include some of the greatest movies made in this country: Storm Boy (1976), The Last Wave (1977), Crocodile Dundee (1986) and, this year, both The Tracker and Rabbit-Proof Fence (for which he received AFI nominations for best actor and best supporting actor respectively).
There have been moments of glitz and glamour. He learned to drink alcohol with John Mellion and Dennis Hopper. He has partied with Bob Dylan and joined John Lennon on the roof as the Beatles recorded 'Get Back'. He's been nominated for more awards than most actors dream of and has been honoured with an Order of Australia medal. Yet here he is, half naked on the dirt floor of a humpy, slowly getting stoned.
For filmmaker Darlene Johnson, it was pretty amazing that Gulpilil allowed her to shoot the dope scene. Even more startling was the fact he had the chance to cut it from her documentary, Gulpilil - One Red Blood, but chose to leave it in.
"What's amazing about David is his candidness," she says. "I have more respect for him because he chose to show that side. As he says, he wanted 'No bull****'."
The two met "in a bar, as you do" on the set of Rabbit-Proof Fence. The Aboriginal filmmaker had been shooting a documentary about the making of Phillip Noyce's epic and was about to fly to New York because Stolen Generation, her best-known work, had been nominated for an Emmy Award.
Gulpilil told her how much he had enjoyed Stolen Generations and suggested she make a documentary about his own life. Johnson, 32, was both amazed and flattered. Amazed no one had thought of documenting Gulpilil's life before, flattered because, as she puts it: "I'm a Koori. Here's an Aborigine based on tribal land in Arnhem Land asking me, a white-skinned young woman from an urban setting, to make a film for posterity, something he could pass down to his family."
What makes Gulpilil unique is his ability, as he says, "to live in two worlds". There's the world of movies, premieres, airline tickets. And then there's his traditional life - hunting kangaroos and crocodiles as his ancestors did for centuries before him in his tribal homelands.
"That's the real me on screen," Gulpilil said. "I walk on red carpets and eat caviar but this is where my paradise is, where I was born. I'm the same person in both worlds. I wanted the documentary to show how I live and where I hunt."
As soon as the documentary begins, you realise Gulpilil is different. "I don't know how old I am," he says. "I think I'm 48 ... maybe 50." Many of his Aboriginal contemporaries are dead and Johnson believes that's why Gulpilil was so keen to see the documentary made; as if he felt time was running out to record his contribution to Australian culture and the rebuffing of racial stereotypes.
In the documentary Jack Thompson recalls the impact of Walkabout: "No Australian director would have made an Aboriginal man so sexily attractive to a western woman." Only four years earlier, in Journey out of Darkness, the key Aboriginal roles had been played by a blacked-up white actor and an Asian, Kamal.
Gulpilil's career nose-dived in the 1990s, partly because he asked for "a million dollars" to appear in Crocodile Dundee 2. It was a tough time, with petrol sniffing and alcohol getting a grip on Ramingining, where he lives. But Gulpilil and other elders have now made it a dry community and the petrol sniffing has been conquered.
Gulpilil is pleased with Johnson's warts-and-all portrait. "It tells my missing story," he says.
Gulpilil: One Red Blood airs on the ABC today at 8.30pm.
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...379836054.html
Man who lives in two worlds
By Steve Meacham
December 11 2002
You can imagine the controversy if Nicole Kidman or Russell Crowe was shown smoking marijuana on the national broadcaster. But this week one of Australia's best-known actors will be seen smoking a bong on an ABC documentary - and no one will turn a hair.
Since 1971, when he became an overnight sensation in Walkabout, Nicholas Roeg's classic about a clash of cultures, David Gulpilil has been the world's favourite Aboriginal star. His credits include some of the greatest movies made in this country: Storm Boy (1976), The Last Wave (1977), Crocodile Dundee (1986) and, this year, both The Tracker and Rabbit-Proof Fence (for which he received AFI nominations for best actor and best supporting actor respectively).
There have been moments of glitz and glamour. He learned to drink alcohol with John Mellion and Dennis Hopper. He has partied with Bob Dylan and joined John Lennon on the roof as the Beatles recorded 'Get Back'. He's been nominated for more awards than most actors dream of and has been honoured with an Order of Australia medal. Yet here he is, half naked on the dirt floor of a humpy, slowly getting stoned.
For filmmaker Darlene Johnson, it was pretty amazing that Gulpilil allowed her to shoot the dope scene. Even more startling was the fact he had the chance to cut it from her documentary, Gulpilil - One Red Blood, but chose to leave it in.
"What's amazing about David is his candidness," she says. "I have more respect for him because he chose to show that side. As he says, he wanted 'No bull****'."
The two met "in a bar, as you do" on the set of Rabbit-Proof Fence. The Aboriginal filmmaker had been shooting a documentary about the making of Phillip Noyce's epic and was about to fly to New York because Stolen Generation, her best-known work, had been nominated for an Emmy Award.
Gulpilil told her how much he had enjoyed Stolen Generations and suggested she make a documentary about his own life. Johnson, 32, was both amazed and flattered. Amazed no one had thought of documenting Gulpilil's life before, flattered because, as she puts it: "I'm a Koori. Here's an Aborigine based on tribal land in Arnhem Land asking me, a white-skinned young woman from an urban setting, to make a film for posterity, something he could pass down to his family."
What makes Gulpilil unique is his ability, as he says, "to live in two worlds". There's the world of movies, premieres, airline tickets. And then there's his traditional life - hunting kangaroos and crocodiles as his ancestors did for centuries before him in his tribal homelands.
"That's the real me on screen," Gulpilil said. "I walk on red carpets and eat caviar but this is where my paradise is, where I was born. I'm the same person in both worlds. I wanted the documentary to show how I live and where I hunt."
As soon as the documentary begins, you realise Gulpilil is different. "I don't know how old I am," he says. "I think I'm 48 ... maybe 50." Many of his Aboriginal contemporaries are dead and Johnson believes that's why Gulpilil was so keen to see the documentary made; as if he felt time was running out to record his contribution to Australian culture and the rebuffing of racial stereotypes.
In the documentary Jack Thompson recalls the impact of Walkabout: "No Australian director would have made an Aboriginal man so sexily attractive to a western woman." Only four years earlier, in Journey out of Darkness, the key Aboriginal roles had been played by a blacked-up white actor and an Asian, Kamal.
Gulpilil's career nose-dived in the 1990s, partly because he asked for "a million dollars" to appear in Crocodile Dundee 2. It was a tough time, with petrol sniffing and alcohol getting a grip on Ramingining, where he lives. But Gulpilil and other elders have now made it a dry community and the petrol sniffing has been conquered.
Gulpilil is pleased with Johnson's warts-and-all portrait. "It tells my missing story," he says.
Gulpilil: One Red Blood airs on the ABC today at 8.30pm.
A few years ago I saw the actor mentioned above board the RPT flight at a small country town. He was already sloshed, & probably shouldn't have been allowed on the aircraft. However, imagine what would have happened if he wasn't. Everyone would have been blamed as being racist - never mind the fact that he was making a complete nuisance of himself, before the aircraft even departed. During the 1hr 40 min flight he partook of the "onboard refreshments" (read alcohol) & repeatedly told the other passengers who he was. I for one would not bother to watch any program with him in it.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: no longer on the Pond
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Winstun and HA, agree with all you both say.
Pseudo, good article that shows it is possible to live in both worlds. Heck, I've been doing it for 38 years.
DF, as PIC you shoulda just chucked him out. I would, no matter what colour or culture a dude came from.
exmex: figured sooner or later someone would use this old line. Shows that the lazy-minded are still out and about. As for being conquered, I'll use terms that your type can understand...maybe you and I should meet out behind the boozer, and I'll show you who's conquered. Maybe you should live by the words of your signature, eh?
Pseudo, good article that shows it is possible to live in both worlds. Heck, I've been doing it for 38 years.
DF, as PIC you shoulda just chucked him out. I would, no matter what colour or culture a dude came from.
exmex: figured sooner or later someone would use this old line. Shows that the lazy-minded are still out and about. As for being conquered, I'll use terms that your type can understand...maybe you and I should meet out behind the boozer, and I'll show you who's conquered. Maybe you should live by the words of your signature, eh?
Grandpa Aerotart
Huron Topp...a question that's bemused me for some time.
Some years ago I was watching a series called 'How the West was lost' ...the real story of the 'conquering' of the West rather than the John Wayne version.
Many interviews with many Native Americans, I can't remember the tribe...they all seemed to be from the same tribe.
At one stage they were talking to a Native American female Lawyer or Author or Historian (can't remember) about the Indian tribes that had lived on 'their' land before them, LONG before the white man turned up.
To paraphrase her answer it was along the lines of, "My ancesters were mighty warriors and we just killed them all and took their land."
It was said in a manner, and tone of voice, totally devoid of any sense of irony or injustice to those long lost tribes...they just don't exist anymore!!!
The entire, very interesting, series was tainted for me by that one answer.
The irony for me is that eventually a 'mightier warrior' group turned up and did to them as they had done to others...
I have a very hard time accepting that actions of several hundred years ago can be judged by the moral codes of today. Note here I'm not talking about some of the terrible things enacted in the 50s, 60s and 70s when it can be argued that society should have known better.
Too we hear a hell of a lot of bad stories of the 'Stolen Generations'...often by individuals who were raised by white families and given wonderful education opportunities and are now Lawyers, Historians, Authors, Film makers etc etc...then we see film of kids with runny noses and big bellies caused by an unbalanced diet (to high in starch) running around a filthy settlement with little, if anything, in the way of opportunities to better themselves.
Perhaps I think it just needs a little more balance to possibly show that the terrible things done to some in these circumstances were done by sick individuals rather than a sick system?
Look at all the white kids interfered with by members of the church etc which, compared to the 'Stolen Generations' hardly seems to rate a mention.
My only direct 'experience' of Australian Aborigines is while driving a taxi in Sydney 20 years ago, and being based in Darwin for a year...and watching Aboriginal men drunk as lords beating the $hit out of their women in the park opposite my unit...and when I rang the cops in an effort to 'help' the poor women the police patrols, which were usually every few minutes, all of a sudden became scarce as rocking horse poo!!
On the other hand I once knew a young Aboriginal who was a very well spoken, highly educated and wonderfully articulate Australian Army officer...raised in a white family. I was once flown in a helicopter by a young mixed race Aboriginal pilot...a throughly nice young bloke out building hours and very professional to boot.
I once was introduced, by one of my FAs, to two young Aboriginal NT Police Officers in a night club in Alice Springs while on an overight...well spoken, well dressed, liked a beer, liked a laugh and a good joke...god did we laugh that night!!
Then there was the ones who, even though they had all the benefits of being 'Stolen', and who had deep affection for their Foster Parents/white family, played the "You owe me/I'm Aboriginal" card constantly to get ahead before seniority/skill levels/experience would otherwise dictate.
While my experience of Australian Native Peoples is limited and mixed I spent 13 years living and flying in PNG...and is therefore somewhat more comprehensive.
PNG, a country which had wondrous promise of bountyfull wealth and resources, which now lays close to anarchy, and that's giving PNG the benefit of the doubt and the term anarchy the most liberal translation. A country that was 'all set to go' in 1973 is now in economic and social ruin.
To experience racialist behaviour as a 'white' person there are two really eye opening avenues.
1/. Live in a predominately 'black' country and be discriminated against on the basis of your 'expat white' status. Even though the people doing the discrimating would NOT be where they are if not for the efforts of, in the case of PNG, generations of expats.
2/. Watch the hatred, misstrust and discrimination dished out by 'blacks' against 'blacks'... PNG is rife with that... Africa is another place where this is in stark relief...Zimbabwe, where I spent a year as a 19 year old..the last year of Rhodesia!!, is a classic example among numerous...Rwanda ring a bell!!.
Tell me South Africa is a better place now for Black or White than it was when I first went there in 1974...and no I'm NOT an Apartheid appologist...but I do remember Bantu Universities where many Black Africans got excellent educations...I have been to 'Black' suburbs (Soweto actually...the 'Township' you always see on TV was a few miles away..named after the Suburb) with their far share of BMWs parked in the driveways (and I'm talking about 27 years ago)...I do remember White African farmers whose respect for and caring for 'their Blacks' extended to housing, food, education, medication and a 'job for life'...and when I say respect I mean the sort of deep empathy and affection I witnessed between a 'White' farmer and a very old 'Black' worker who had worked for that Farmers Father...and who had bounced that Farmer on his knee when he was a baby...they could communicate without words.
And yes I do remember 'white only' beaches, busses, public toilets etc etc. Look at those facilities now and you don't wonder why the 'segregation'.
I'm not trying to minimise the bad things that have been done to whomever by whomever over many, MANY years...but 27 years of watching and experiencing ( I was 14 when I first went to Africa with my father, 15 when I first visited PNG) have shown me that perception is not always reality...the experience is not all bad...but we never hear the good...we rarely hear the real reasons for the 'bad'...or the ways in which good intention ended up as bad result.
Chuck.
Some years ago I was watching a series called 'How the West was lost' ...the real story of the 'conquering' of the West rather than the John Wayne version.
Many interviews with many Native Americans, I can't remember the tribe...they all seemed to be from the same tribe.
At one stage they were talking to a Native American female Lawyer or Author or Historian (can't remember) about the Indian tribes that had lived on 'their' land before them, LONG before the white man turned up.
To paraphrase her answer it was along the lines of, "My ancesters were mighty warriors and we just killed them all and took their land."
It was said in a manner, and tone of voice, totally devoid of any sense of irony or injustice to those long lost tribes...they just don't exist anymore!!!
The entire, very interesting, series was tainted for me by that one answer.
The irony for me is that eventually a 'mightier warrior' group turned up and did to them as they had done to others...
I have a very hard time accepting that actions of several hundred years ago can be judged by the moral codes of today. Note here I'm not talking about some of the terrible things enacted in the 50s, 60s and 70s when it can be argued that society should have known better.
Too we hear a hell of a lot of bad stories of the 'Stolen Generations'...often by individuals who were raised by white families and given wonderful education opportunities and are now Lawyers, Historians, Authors, Film makers etc etc...then we see film of kids with runny noses and big bellies caused by an unbalanced diet (to high in starch) running around a filthy settlement with little, if anything, in the way of opportunities to better themselves.
Perhaps I think it just needs a little more balance to possibly show that the terrible things done to some in these circumstances were done by sick individuals rather than a sick system?
Look at all the white kids interfered with by members of the church etc which, compared to the 'Stolen Generations' hardly seems to rate a mention.
My only direct 'experience' of Australian Aborigines is while driving a taxi in Sydney 20 years ago, and being based in Darwin for a year...and watching Aboriginal men drunk as lords beating the $hit out of their women in the park opposite my unit...and when I rang the cops in an effort to 'help' the poor women the police patrols, which were usually every few minutes, all of a sudden became scarce as rocking horse poo!!
On the other hand I once knew a young Aboriginal who was a very well spoken, highly educated and wonderfully articulate Australian Army officer...raised in a white family. I was once flown in a helicopter by a young mixed race Aboriginal pilot...a throughly nice young bloke out building hours and very professional to boot.
I once was introduced, by one of my FAs, to two young Aboriginal NT Police Officers in a night club in Alice Springs while on an overight...well spoken, well dressed, liked a beer, liked a laugh and a good joke...god did we laugh that night!!
Then there was the ones who, even though they had all the benefits of being 'Stolen', and who had deep affection for their Foster Parents/white family, played the "You owe me/I'm Aboriginal" card constantly to get ahead before seniority/skill levels/experience would otherwise dictate.
While my experience of Australian Native Peoples is limited and mixed I spent 13 years living and flying in PNG...and is therefore somewhat more comprehensive.
PNG, a country which had wondrous promise of bountyfull wealth and resources, which now lays close to anarchy, and that's giving PNG the benefit of the doubt and the term anarchy the most liberal translation. A country that was 'all set to go' in 1973 is now in economic and social ruin.
To experience racialist behaviour as a 'white' person there are two really eye opening avenues.
1/. Live in a predominately 'black' country and be discriminated against on the basis of your 'expat white' status. Even though the people doing the discrimating would NOT be where they are if not for the efforts of, in the case of PNG, generations of expats.
2/. Watch the hatred, misstrust and discrimination dished out by 'blacks' against 'blacks'... PNG is rife with that... Africa is another place where this is in stark relief...Zimbabwe, where I spent a year as a 19 year old..the last year of Rhodesia!!, is a classic example among numerous...Rwanda ring a bell!!.
Tell me South Africa is a better place now for Black or White than it was when I first went there in 1974...and no I'm NOT an Apartheid appologist...but I do remember Bantu Universities where many Black Africans got excellent educations...I have been to 'Black' suburbs (Soweto actually...the 'Township' you always see on TV was a few miles away..named after the Suburb) with their far share of BMWs parked in the driveways (and I'm talking about 27 years ago)...I do remember White African farmers whose respect for and caring for 'their Blacks' extended to housing, food, education, medication and a 'job for life'...and when I say respect I mean the sort of deep empathy and affection I witnessed between a 'White' farmer and a very old 'Black' worker who had worked for that Farmers Father...and who had bounced that Farmer on his knee when he was a baby...they could communicate without words.
And yes I do remember 'white only' beaches, busses, public toilets etc etc. Look at those facilities now and you don't wonder why the 'segregation'.
I'm not trying to minimise the bad things that have been done to whomever by whomever over many, MANY years...but 27 years of watching and experiencing ( I was 14 when I first went to Africa with my father, 15 when I first visited PNG) have shown me that perception is not always reality...the experience is not all bad...but we never hear the good...we rarely hear the real reasons for the 'bad'...or the ways in which good intention ended up as bad result.
Chuck.
Last edited by Chimbu chuckles; 12th Dec 2002 at 12:46.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: no longer on the Pond
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chuckles,
have some mates up just south of you heli-bombing fires at the moment, nice to hear from you.
Not even gonna try to get into the PNG or South Africa comments. I'm just not familiar enough, personally to comment. However, an interesting little note for you, when the SA government was first setting up the apartheid system they went to Canada and did a tour of some of the native reserves here, just to get a feel for how you can lock people up on little plots of land.
The series you mention, and the interview specifically, refers to the Navajo and Apache people and their decades long battles with the Anasazi. The former were originally from Northern Canada and about 1000 years ago decided a little sun would be nice, so they headed several thousand miles south into what is now the south-west U.S.(Arizona, New Mexico), And yes, from oral tradition, they did defeat the Anasazi. The majority of Anasazi were adopted into the navajo and Apache peoples. Others, and their descendants, form what are now known as the various Pueblo peoples in the area. So, as a distinct culture and people, yes they were beaten, but they still exist as distinct smaller groups.
The problem has never been that Europeans came and "conquered". That would be a distortion of the truth and historical fact. What happened in virtually every case, is that Euros signed Treaties with aboriginal nations, and then broke them. As a matter of historical fact, every single Treaty between aboriginal people in North America has been broken. Every last one, out of some 400 or so. Broken by the U.S., Canada (and britain and France before them). Our ancestors had no experience dealing with people who were so full of dis-hounour. Our people very rarely fought Europeans, normally we chose sides and fought beside one of them. But, when we did fight Euros, on virtually every occasion, we won.
Just like anywhere else, different peoples fought for glory and land. But never has an entire people been wiped out in warfare. Sure there are those who would like to think that this was just a paradise before before Euros arrived, with no wars or famine etc.
Fact is, many of the old tribal hatreds still exist, but nothing even close to what happens in Africa.
Can the actions of several hundred years ago be judged by todays standards? No. But, the problem remains that there are still far too many people who have the same beliefs that existed several hundred years ago. Thats a simple fact.
Would it not have been better for the individuals, families etc. to have chosen to pursue these "wonderful" opportunities? Remember, this happened mostly in the past 50 years, not several hundred years ago. Mine did, at least for the past 3 generations. My old man was a pilot in the Air Force, my brother is an Engineer and I was a Navigator in the Air Force, with mom having been a teacher for 35 years.
I would have to disagree, as it was/is the system that allowed them to be there in the first place. It was the system that held lotteries to see which denomination got to take which kids into their schools. It was the system that turned a blind eye when complaints were first being made, and it is now the system that has tried to wash its hands of a situation which was their creation.
Obviously, we are now finding out just how disgusting the actions of many so-called religious people have been, against both native, white, black etc. But, when a white child is taken and adopted (for whatever reason), the intent is not to destroy an entire culture. That was why aboriginal kids were taken, to destroy the culture and the entire people, to force them to "integrate" into the bigger society.
You mention good intentions going bad. I won't disagree, thats for sure. Unfortunately, what happens is that people start pointing out that the good intentions are actually self-serving and harmful, but nothing changes. Do you think that churches actually went into communities with the sole intent of educating? Their true intent was educating people, without consent, into their denomination's religious beliefs. Were the governments' intentions to educate and integrate, or were they to annhialate. I'd say the answer is pretty obvious.
A great example of the truth behind governments' intents, is where people were put when reserves were first set up. With high moral standards, and of course with the aboriginal people's best interests at heart, governments' proclaimed that normally nomadic people must become farmers. But, where were they put? They were forced to try and farm land that was a swamp, or was solid granite under 1/2 an inch of soil. Thats the reality. Where did the prime land go? I don't really need to answer that...do I?
I would bet that there are very few people who know that the democratic system that so many hold dear, and that most would thank the U.S. for, came in fact from the "savages" of North America? hmmm...
have some mates up just south of you heli-bombing fires at the moment, nice to hear from you.
Not even gonna try to get into the PNG or South Africa comments. I'm just not familiar enough, personally to comment. However, an interesting little note for you, when the SA government was first setting up the apartheid system they went to Canada and did a tour of some of the native reserves here, just to get a feel for how you can lock people up on little plots of land.
The series you mention, and the interview specifically, refers to the Navajo and Apache people and their decades long battles with the Anasazi. The former were originally from Northern Canada and about 1000 years ago decided a little sun would be nice, so they headed several thousand miles south into what is now the south-west U.S.(Arizona, New Mexico), And yes, from oral tradition, they did defeat the Anasazi. The majority of Anasazi were adopted into the navajo and Apache peoples. Others, and their descendants, form what are now known as the various Pueblo peoples in the area. So, as a distinct culture and people, yes they were beaten, but they still exist as distinct smaller groups.
The problem has never been that Europeans came and "conquered". That would be a distortion of the truth and historical fact. What happened in virtually every case, is that Euros signed Treaties with aboriginal nations, and then broke them. As a matter of historical fact, every single Treaty between aboriginal people in North America has been broken. Every last one, out of some 400 or so. Broken by the U.S., Canada (and britain and France before them). Our ancestors had no experience dealing with people who were so full of dis-hounour. Our people very rarely fought Europeans, normally we chose sides and fought beside one of them. But, when we did fight Euros, on virtually every occasion, we won.
Just like anywhere else, different peoples fought for glory and land. But never has an entire people been wiped out in warfare. Sure there are those who would like to think that this was just a paradise before before Euros arrived, with no wars or famine etc.
Fact is, many of the old tribal hatreds still exist, but nothing even close to what happens in Africa.
Can the actions of several hundred years ago be judged by todays standards? No. But, the problem remains that there are still far too many people who have the same beliefs that existed several hundred years ago. Thats a simple fact.
Too we hear a hell of a lot of bad stories of the 'Stolen Generations'...often by individuals who were raised by white families and given wonderful education opportunities and are now Lawyers, Historians, Authors, Film makers etc etc...then we see film of kids with runny noses and big bellies caused by an unbalanced diet (to high in starch) running around a filthy settlement with little, if anything, in the way of opportunities to better themselves.
Perhaps I think it just needs a little more balance to possibly show that the terrible things done to some in these circumstances were done by sick individuals rather than a sick system?
Obviously, we are now finding out just how disgusting the actions of many so-called religious people have been, against both native, white, black etc. But, when a white child is taken and adopted (for whatever reason), the intent is not to destroy an entire culture. That was why aboriginal kids were taken, to destroy the culture and the entire people, to force them to "integrate" into the bigger society.
You mention good intentions going bad. I won't disagree, thats for sure. Unfortunately, what happens is that people start pointing out that the good intentions are actually self-serving and harmful, but nothing changes. Do you think that churches actually went into communities with the sole intent of educating? Their true intent was educating people, without consent, into their denomination's religious beliefs. Were the governments' intentions to educate and integrate, or were they to annhialate. I'd say the answer is pretty obvious.
A great example of the truth behind governments' intents, is where people were put when reserves were first set up. With high moral standards, and of course with the aboriginal people's best interests at heart, governments' proclaimed that normally nomadic people must become farmers. But, where were they put? They were forced to try and farm land that was a swamp, or was solid granite under 1/2 an inch of soil. Thats the reality. Where did the prime land go? I don't really need to answer that...do I?
I would bet that there are very few people who know that the democratic system that so many hold dear, and that most would thank the U.S. for, came in fact from the "savages" of North America? hmmm...