What's the Role of the SO?
Exactly the same as a F/O just not permitted to takeoff or land, or sit in the seat below 3000 or 5000feet...not sure which one it is.
I believe, and I could be proved wrong that CX and QF are the only airlines in the world to use S/Os...
I believe, and I could be proved wrong that CX and QF are the only airlines in the world to use S/Os...
Nunc est bibendum
I see it as a four way thing.
1. In flight crew relief obviously,
2. Insurance policy- in case either of the other two stuff up,
3. Knowlege expansion- learn the route structure, gain experience in international ops (if you don't already have it!), get exposure to various types of weather, develop better (or worse!) CRM etc, etc all in a 'protected' seat (obviously this one probably doesn't apply as much to ex airline typs!)
4. Trainee F/O (and skipper ultimately)- everything should be going towards 'how is this going to help me to become a F/O'.
Hope that helps.
1. In flight crew relief obviously,
2. Insurance policy- in case either of the other two stuff up,
3. Knowlege expansion- learn the route structure, gain experience in international ops (if you don't already have it!), get exposure to various types of weather, develop better (or worse!) CRM etc, etc all in a 'protected' seat (obviously this one probably doesn't apply as much to ex airline typs!)
4. Trainee F/O (and skipper ultimately)- everything should be going towards 'how is this going to help me to become a F/O'.
Hope that helps.
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According to a mate of mine in CX (who regularly reads this forum - g'day Grunt!) the raison de existance of the SO, is to
* hold the sandwich tray during TO and initial climb, and ensure the sammies don't get dried out by exposure to the aircon (but don't breathe on them
* agree with the brilliant plans promulgated by the Captain and occasionally FO, for their retirement / promotion
* During the captains rest periods, pre-program the next lot of freqs into the FMS; and if the FO is feeling expansive, as a special treat he may allow the SO to talk on the HF once or twice.
For this, he gets paid roughly twice what I get, plus O/Ns in plush hotels with hot and cold running FAs.
Who's the mug?
* hold the sandwich tray during TO and initial climb, and ensure the sammies don't get dried out by exposure to the aircon (but don't breathe on them
* agree with the brilliant plans promulgated by the Captain and occasionally FO, for their retirement / promotion
* During the captains rest periods, pre-program the next lot of freqs into the FMS; and if the FO is feeling expansive, as a special treat he may allow the SO to talk on the HF once or twice.
For this, he gets paid roughly twice what I get, plus O/Ns in plush hotels with hot and cold running FAs.
Who's the mug?
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Look at it realisticly. Are airline bean counters going to employ people at great expense to learn from observing, and all Kegs wonderful reasons.
They are employed because they need someone to sit in the right seat while the Captain and F/O take a rest. Legal requirement. End of story!
The touchy feely reasons are those dreamt up by S/O s trying to justify why they have a job, and trying to make it sound as if they are needed. Its great to feel important.
Sorry, just being realistic.
Keg, you're a F/O now. Forget it mate.
They are employed because they need someone to sit in the right seat while the Captain and F/O take a rest. Legal requirement. End of story!
The touchy feely reasons are those dreamt up by S/O s trying to justify why they have a job, and trying to make it sound as if they are needed. Its great to feel important.
Sorry, just being realistic.
Keg, you're a F/O now. Forget it mate.
Nunc est bibendum
MoFo, you'll get no argument from the me that the reason that QF have them is that they are cheaper than F/Os on the longer flights. The company puts them there and the company then says OK, here are a few things for you to do whilst you are there.
Whether or not some do or don't perform that role or whether or not you think it 'touch feely', the company expects that of them. You only have to see some of the scathing remarks directed at different groups of S/Os over the years to see that QF take the role seriously at least.
I'm not denying that some crew treat them as the sexual adviser but if the boss is off, I'd like the bloke sitting next to me to be as competent as possible (to make up for my own short comings!
) and so I hope that at least the S/O is performing to the role I mentioned earlier.
MoFo, I didn't dream that role up when a S/O, it came from Captain Ken Sargeant- one of the better SCCs I've come across in the last eight years. You may not believe that part of the role but I bet you get the cranks with a S/O that DIDN'T display some of that attitude!
I too am a realist- I just happen to like seeing S/Os take an interest in what's going on and fulfilling any different number of roles' whilst with me.
Whether or not some do or don't perform that role or whether or not you think it 'touch feely', the company expects that of them. You only have to see some of the scathing remarks directed at different groups of S/Os over the years to see that QF take the role seriously at least.
I'm not denying that some crew treat them as the sexual adviser but if the boss is off, I'd like the bloke sitting next to me to be as competent as possible (to make up for my own short comings!
) and so I hope that at least the S/O is performing to the role I mentioned earlier.MoFo, I didn't dream that role up when a S/O, it came from Captain Ken Sargeant- one of the better SCCs I've come across in the last eight years. You may not believe that part of the role but I bet you get the cranks with a S/O that DIDN'T display some of that attitude!
I too am a realist- I just happen to like seeing S/Os take an interest in what's going on and fulfilling any different number of roles' whilst with me.
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Old school wa@#$rs
It amazes me that with all the modern day CRM training at our finger tips,we still have to endure the narrow-minded attitudes of self righteous ar@#$oles like mofo and the the charming gentleman referred to by Juliet Whiskey
YOU PEOPLE DO NOT BELONG IN THE FLIGHT DECK,your personalities would be FAR better suited to a career in gravedigging,or anywhere where people don't have to interact with you.GET OVER YOURSELVES,you're not as important as you may think in your self-fulfilling,arrogant world!
Sorry all,had to blow off some steam!
YOU PEOPLE DO NOT BELONG IN THE FLIGHT DECK,your personalities would be FAR better suited to a career in gravedigging,or anywhere where people don't have to interact with you.GET OVER YOURSELVES,you're not as important as you may think in your self-fulfilling,arrogant world!
Sorry all,had to blow off some steam!
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I'm with you Farcup. I'm sure that there are still plenty out there that would prefer to discover for themselves after the inner marker that the gear is up rather than be told by some "low life" SO. Unfortunately SOs are still being intimidated into keeping their mouth shut but it should be stamped out NOW!
Like Keg says, we are all a team trying to get the job done but pigheaded arrogance is still around.
Like Keg says, we are all a team trying to get the job done but pigheaded arrogance is still around.
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KLM also have SOs. I believe Eva have "cruise captains" (sounds like an SO to me).
Some of you seem to be in the mood for bagging SOs (I assume in jest), but perhaps you would like recall that there have been several occasions where the SO has saved the aeroplane, or more importantly the several hundred people inside. One was a B707 that ended up upside down and the other a classic that nearly took off without any fuel pumps on.
Like anytime you are sitting next to someone you don't really know for a few hours, doesn't really matter if they are a capt, FO, SO or whatever, if you make an effort to get on with them, the job gets done much quicker and easier. The upside of courtesy is that if you do something stupid, the bloke sitting behind you might actually tell you before you embarass yourself and end up having tea and sponge cake in front of a management pilot. More importantly, he might actually shell out for a few green cans on the crew bus.
Some of you seem to be in the mood for bagging SOs (I assume in jest), but perhaps you would like recall that there have been several occasions where the SO has saved the aeroplane, or more importantly the several hundred people inside. One was a B707 that ended up upside down and the other a classic that nearly took off without any fuel pumps on.
Like anytime you are sitting next to someone you don't really know for a few hours, doesn't really matter if they are a capt, FO, SO or whatever, if you make an effort to get on with them, the job gets done much quicker and easier. The upside of courtesy is that if you do something stupid, the bloke sitting behind you might actually tell you before you embarass yourself and end up having tea and sponge cake in front of a management pilot. More importantly, he might actually shell out for a few green cans on the crew bus.
MoFo
"The touchy feely reasons are those dreamt up by S/O s trying to justify why they have a job, and trying to make it sound as if they are needed. Its great to feel important."
I'm all too aware of the fact that my job relates mainly to extending flight & duty times - as a matter of fact, that was the answer that I gave in my initial interview when asked "So why does Qantas REALLY employ second officers?" But as for your statement above - "trying to make it sound as if they are needed..." - I'd suggest that if I wasn't needed, then Qantas probably wouldn't roster me for the trip. Obviously S/O's ARE needed, otherwise they wouldn't be there...
For those that continually bag S/O's, and like to throw in "classic" lines like "Captain's sexual adviser!....When the Captain wants his F**KING advise he'll ask for it" - that's fine - after all, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, as others on this forum have noted, there are far worse jobs for one to have in this industry. I certainly feel very privileged to hold my position as an S/O; not just because I sit up the pointy end of a jumbo, but also because it is what I have always dreamed of doing, and why I worked my arse off ever since I was at high school. Not to mention all of the other benefits of $$$ and lifestyle that it brings with it...
"The touchy feely reasons are those dreamt up by S/O s trying to justify why they have a job, and trying to make it sound as if they are needed. Its great to feel important."
I'm all too aware of the fact that my job relates mainly to extending flight & duty times - as a matter of fact, that was the answer that I gave in my initial interview when asked "So why does Qantas REALLY employ second officers?" But as for your statement above - "trying to make it sound as if they are needed..." - I'd suggest that if I wasn't needed, then Qantas probably wouldn't roster me for the trip. Obviously S/O's ARE needed, otherwise they wouldn't be there...
For those that continually bag S/O's, and like to throw in "classic" lines like "Captain's sexual adviser!....When the Captain wants his F**KING advise he'll ask for it" - that's fine - after all, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But, as others on this forum have noted, there are far worse jobs for one to have in this industry. I certainly feel very privileged to hold my position as an S/O; not just because I sit up the pointy end of a jumbo, but also because it is what I have always dreamed of doing, and why I worked my arse off ever since I was at high school. Not to mention all of the other benefits of $$$ and lifestyle that it brings with it...
Lets see, ideal life is to work less; have less responsibility; get paid more; and have more time off. Anyone who bags a SO for doing their job has rocks in their head.
Now, can we get back to picking on bean counters please.
Don
Now, can we get back to picking on bean counters please.
Don
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The SO's job in a nutshell
1. At dispatch agree that flight plan fuel is the way to go. If destination forecast has more than 4 lines put on your best future captain face, gaze off into the distance and suggest putting on another 2 tonne of gas.( you need no idea what for or what use it will be, but the input goes down well)
2.When you get to the aircraft, make the beds, organise the rubbish bag (shows management skills) do the take off data card (a chance to show piloting savy by surgesting 5 knots tailwind no matter what the actual wind is) and most importantly, eat the sandwiches.
3. Staying awake during taxi out is optional.
4. Keep chair warm during cruise (that bit where you used to catch a bit of kip when you were pushing bug smashers around)
5. On descent, organise the bay number (optional, not required if you are asleep)
6. Point out to the gunnes driving what switches have been missed in the after landing flow
7. Do it all again 35 hours later (to get back!)
8. Take 5 days off in Australia
9. Buy boats
10. Buy houses
1. At dispatch agree that flight plan fuel is the way to go. If destination forecast has more than 4 lines put on your best future captain face, gaze off into the distance and suggest putting on another 2 tonne of gas.( you need no idea what for or what use it will be, but the input goes down well)
2.When you get to the aircraft, make the beds, organise the rubbish bag (shows management skills) do the take off data card (a chance to show piloting savy by surgesting 5 knots tailwind no matter what the actual wind is) and most importantly, eat the sandwiches.
3. Staying awake during taxi out is optional.
4. Keep chair warm during cruise (that bit where you used to catch a bit of kip when you were pushing bug smashers around)
5. On descent, organise the bay number (optional, not required if you are asleep)
6. Point out to the gunnes driving what switches have been missed in the after landing flow
7. Do it all again 35 hours later (to get back!)
8. Take 5 days off in Australia
9. Buy boats
10. Buy houses
Last edited by the looka; 9th Oct 2002 at 07:09.
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And then there's the difficult decisions:
- Which push-to-talk switch to use?
- First break or second break?
- VB or tooheys new for the bus ride?
- klosters, singtao or heineken at the bar?
- crew or pax meal?
- cappucino or hot chocolate?
- listen to "golden oldies" or "top 40" IFE program?
Did I miss anything?
- Which push-to-talk switch to use?
- First break or second break?
- VB or tooheys new for the bus ride?
- klosters, singtao or heineken at the bar?
- crew or pax meal?
- cappucino or hot chocolate?
- listen to "golden oldies" or "top 40" IFE program?
Did I miss anything?