low hour Instrument rated pilots
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why oh why do all you guys do this? Get an instructor rating instead then at least you will get paid while you build hours. The instrument rating needs constant use to keep you in the loop, safe, and current. Some flying school operators should be shot for taking your money. And before anyone starts I have a flying school as well!!!
Grog, some people have no wish or desire to instruct, there are already way to many instructers out there that have no real desire to do it but use their students as a way to build hours...does an instructer who really doesn't want to instruct produce a quality student?
I don't think anyone admits that you will get an IFR job with low hours, however I think the discipline of IFR flying at an early stage increases your flying skills and decision making ability, and at least gives you some skills to get you thru a sticky situation if you do get caught in cloud one day.
If you get it out of the way at an early stage it's available for if/when you get upgraded to twins, and in the mean time you have a few renewals under your belt for half the jobs that require 3-5 as part of getting a job.
It certainly may not help you get a job, but I can't see it as being a bad thing...
I don't think anyone admits that you will get an IFR job with low hours, however I think the discipline of IFR flying at an early stage increases your flying skills and decision making ability, and at least gives you some skills to get you thru a sticky situation if you do get caught in cloud one day.
If you get it out of the way at an early stage it's available for if/when you get upgraded to twins, and in the mean time you have a few renewals under your belt for half the jobs that require 3-5 as part of getting a job.
It certainly may not help you get a job, but I can't see it as being a bad thing...
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good topic GG.
( I didnt read the post by 'puff' so this one sounds a little similar. that thred got through just before mine - oh well!)
I currently have 300 hours and I've booked in to do my CIR in November.
I was speaking to a company owner yesterday who recommended doing an Instructor Rating, but to be honest, I dont think I would be very good at it. Its a bit late to find this out after you have spent the money.
I already have about 70 hours 210 time so I'm looking to go the next step. Plus, I do a lot of casual night flying so the CIR will be very handy - unfortunately, the night flying is in a C182 - there is nothing at all wrong with the plane, its just the single engine that worries me.
It my pay you to get some more flying up in the high performance singles and then only do the CIR if your ready, and your going to use it! A lot of companies with low time pilots dont look for IFR experience, but it can be an advantage and get you out of some difficult flying conditions if you so happen to get in that situation.
I understand its frustrating, believe me I do.
Get some high performance hours up - Ask yourself if you want to be an instructor - if not, then do the CIR but make sure you use it!
With the CIR and some 206/210 experience, your in a pretty good position to start looking for some low time work.
I hope my opinion may help.
Cheers
PA
email me if you want to discuss further [email protected]
Hey GG, I just read your other post on Instructors wages and you said your getting $72 hour - does this mean your already instructing??
Just wondering........your doing a bloody good job for someone who only has 150-200 hours!
PA
( I didnt read the post by 'puff' so this one sounds a little similar. that thred got through just before mine - oh well!)
I currently have 300 hours and I've booked in to do my CIR in November.
I was speaking to a company owner yesterday who recommended doing an Instructor Rating, but to be honest, I dont think I would be very good at it. Its a bit late to find this out after you have spent the money.
I already have about 70 hours 210 time so I'm looking to go the next step. Plus, I do a lot of casual night flying so the CIR will be very handy - unfortunately, the night flying is in a C182 - there is nothing at all wrong with the plane, its just the single engine that worries me.
It my pay you to get some more flying up in the high performance singles and then only do the CIR if your ready, and your going to use it! A lot of companies with low time pilots dont look for IFR experience, but it can be an advantage and get you out of some difficult flying conditions if you so happen to get in that situation.
I understand its frustrating, believe me I do.
Get some high performance hours up - Ask yourself if you want to be an instructor - if not, then do the CIR but make sure you use it!
With the CIR and some 206/210 experience, your in a pretty good position to start looking for some low time work.
I hope my opinion may help.
Cheers
PA
email me if you want to discuss further [email protected]
Hey GG, I just read your other post on Instructors wages and you said your getting $72 hour - does this mean your already instructing??
Just wondering........your doing a bloody good job for someone who only has 150-200 hours!
PA
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
however I think the discipline of IFR flying at an early stage increases your flying skills and decision making ability, and at least gives you some skills to get you thru a sticky situation if you do get caught in cloud one day.
It certainly may not help you get a job, but I can't see it as being a bad thing...
some people have no wish or desire to instruct, there are already way to many instructors out there that have no real desire to do it but use their students as a way to build hours...does an instructor who really doesn't want to instruct produce a quality student?
And what is the big deal if the "instructor" is trying to build hours? They can't teach to a competent standard because you imply "their heart is not in it".
I am sick of reading this and similar posts and people complaining:
"My instructor is going for QF, he doesn't even want to teach me"
Could not think of anything further from the truth. Sure you have your occasional "cowboy" (even throughout my training) but why should that be the benchmark for the whole industry?
So the question I pose for all you anti-instructors out there:
Why is it that you hate them? What have they done to **** you off?
Answer that and perhaps you may silence that twisted, selfish and angry voice in your fruitcake head!
After all, we are in the same industry!
Moderator
I'd recommend going out for a few hundred hours and learning how to fly visually first.
As has been mentioned, chances are slim that you will get a multi IFR job with only a handful of hours. In the early days you are more likely to be doing single engine stuff, and there is no single engine pax carrying IFR.
Most people I know who have done the IFR early on have found it an expensive burden to keep current, even with the barest minimum required for currency, nd feel disollusioned that they wre talked into parting with all that money.
As for the sticky situation, well good luck in having no pax on board, an IFR aeroplane, all your current jepps handy and being current in whatever approach may be required. Cos otherwise you are no safer than a CPL with the minimum ten hours.
And instructor ratings should only be undertaken by those who want to teach people to fly.
Of course the big shiny flying schools who want your money would disagree!
As has been mentioned, chances are slim that you will get a multi IFR job with only a handful of hours. In the early days you are more likely to be doing single engine stuff, and there is no single engine pax carrying IFR.
Most people I know who have done the IFR early on have found it an expensive burden to keep current, even with the barest minimum required for currency, nd feel disollusioned that they wre talked into parting with all that money.
As for the sticky situation, well good luck in having no pax on board, an IFR aeroplane, all your current jepps handy and being current in whatever approach may be required. Cos otherwise you are no safer than a CPL with the minimum ten hours.
And instructor ratings should only be undertaken by those who want to teach people to fly.
Of course the big shiny flying schools who want your money would disagree!
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Camden, NSW, Australia
Posts: 271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's a bit like flight planning. Figure out where you want to be in a few years time and then work out how to get there. If YOU think instructing is not your cup of tee, YOU are probably right. So what else can you do. A CIR is a good next step. At least your first employer will not have to pay for it. Or, if a job comes up, you are ready. However, before you do the CIR make sure you can maintain plenty of recency. Otherwise you will not live long enough to see the fruits of your labour. Best of luck end enjoy the journey.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: everywhere
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My own experience tells me I would not have been ready with only 200-300 hrs to undertake a multi-engine instrument rating.
I had around 1000hrs before I started my rating. When I recieved my CPL 15 years ago I think there was a lot less CPL,S with instrument rating. Having looked at quite a few resumes lately it seems that low time CPL,S all have rating. The only I advice I would give is, get out there and get some practical experience in flying an aeroplane all by yourself first.
I had around 1000hrs before I started my rating. When I recieved my CPL 15 years ago I think there was a lot less CPL,S with instrument rating. Having looked at quite a few resumes lately it seems that low time CPL,S all have rating. The only I advice I would give is, get out there and get some practical experience in flying an aeroplane all by yourself first.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 344
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JULIET WHISKEY. I would reply to your comment if it made any sense or was in context. Why don't you come out from behind mummy's skirt and say what you really mean? I believe you've got all the spare time in world now so don't hold back.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I can see the advantages to doing the ME CIR early.
The requirements for airlines can be met quite quickly after you become employed fulltime in the industry however the shortfall often seems to be the 3 renewals.
Most dont seem to use it for the first year after CPL at anyone elses expense than their own, 2nd year they may start to use it, 3rd year they will use it and then walah!! 3 requirements met.
The other advantage is that if you know of what can really be expected out there for fresh CPL's is that there is at least one company that could be named who does expect you to fly IFR regardless of if you hold the rating or not...should we talk about the advantages now? yes I know the pilots should refuse to do this but ask yourself the same question..have you ever done anything that you know was against rules and regs to keep that first job??
Perhaps the guys/girls just want to be comforted to know that if they get themselves in a situation they can get themselves out again.Someone meantioned that years ago they hardly ever seen a low hour CPL holder with an MECIR, perhaps this has been generated by Flight Sim programs, the interest has been encouraged,I think we should do the same,we are all in an industry that cares about one another's saftey,and if those low hour pilots can gain a little more confidence/capabilities in doing the MECIR early then they should not be judged. lets judge the ***** who put them at risk without it, they are more of a hazard than the damn cloud and thunderies!
The requirements for airlines can be met quite quickly after you become employed fulltime in the industry however the shortfall often seems to be the 3 renewals.
Most dont seem to use it for the first year after CPL at anyone elses expense than their own, 2nd year they may start to use it, 3rd year they will use it and then walah!! 3 requirements met.
The other advantage is that if you know of what can really be expected out there for fresh CPL's is that there is at least one company that could be named who does expect you to fly IFR regardless of if you hold the rating or not...should we talk about the advantages now? yes I know the pilots should refuse to do this but ask yourself the same question..have you ever done anything that you know was against rules and regs to keep that first job??
Perhaps the guys/girls just want to be comforted to know that if they get themselves in a situation they can get themselves out again.Someone meantioned that years ago they hardly ever seen a low hour CPL holder with an MECIR, perhaps this has been generated by Flight Sim programs, the interest has been encouraged,I think we should do the same,we are all in an industry that cares about one another's saftey,and if those low hour pilots can gain a little more confidence/capabilities in doing the MECIR early then they should not be judged. lets judge the ***** who put them at risk without it, they are more of a hazard than the damn cloud and thunderies!
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Australia
Posts: 811
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most flying schools probably include the CIR as part of the standard training programme because they're aiming to produce a pilot that meets the standard airline requirements, rather than what may prove most practical in the GA world.
So what? I found that my CIR at 200 hours was invaluable, not because it necessarily opened up any jobs, but it made me more situationally aware, disciplined, accurate, and considerate in decision making. I would be genuinely suprised if the vast majority of new CIRated pilots and their instructors did not observe that change either.
How is that a disadvantage to employers in flying an aircraft as a professional??
Lancer
So what? I found that my CIR at 200 hours was invaluable, not because it necessarily opened up any jobs, but it made me more situationally aware, disciplined, accurate, and considerate in decision making. I would be genuinely suprised if the vast majority of new CIRated pilots and their instructors did not observe that change either.
How is that a disadvantage to employers in flying an aircraft as a professional??
Lancer
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lancer
You are spot on. Couldn't agree with you more.
Geisha Girl
I have one suggestion. If you intend to get a CIR with low hours, I suggest doing ICUS on IFR operations immediately after gaining the rating.
I did about 25 hours ICUS after getting my rating and the experience reinforced the learning so that I have been able to re-new my rating without having to do too much extra flying and without too many problems, even though I am not using the rating at present.
If you intend getting a CIR, its frustrating but well worth while and you get a great sense of achievment. Good luck.
You are spot on. Couldn't agree with you more.
Geisha Girl
I have one suggestion. If you intend to get a CIR with low hours, I suggest doing ICUS on IFR operations immediately after gaining the rating.
I did about 25 hours ICUS after getting my rating and the experience reinforced the learning so that I have been able to re-new my rating without having to do too much extra flying and without too many problems, even though I am not using the rating at present.
If you intend getting a CIR, its frustrating but well worth while and you get a great sense of achievment. Good luck.
Check Attitude
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Queensland, Australia
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PUFF, Paul Alfred, RAJAM et al, sorry guys, I've been bush for a week, but this subject is a hot one with me.
(1) You are not going to be able to use a M/E CIR with passengers until you have 1,000 Hrs.
(2) You should accumulate at least 500 Hrs before you even think about it !
(3) The flying schools don't care, they want your borrowed money, NOW !
Why am I so concerned about this ?
Quite simply, a little knowledge is very dangerous, a CIR might get you out of a tricky situation, but it is more likely to get you into it instead.
I know of a few low hour fresh CIR holders who used it to get into trouble ( deliberately breaking the Visual Flight Rules and going into IMC in a single, with no real experience behind them and guess what ? They usually spiral dive into the ground at high speed. ATSB records have numerous instances to research, better still, call an ATSB investigator and verify what I have seen.
Save your money, build your hours, then go back and get polished, it's a good time for relearning and polishing at 500 Hrs.
I cringe and despair every time a low hour pilot kills himself (sorry, usually only a male thing, it's ego related). I am angry when someone's ego results in the deaths of innocents who trusted the ability and training of the pilot who could not make the command decisions to avoid IMC during VFR flight.
If you decide to gain a CIR, please decide which set of rules you can safely operate to. DO NOT MIX VFR and IMC, it is usually fatal. Do not allow Ego to make decisions. Follow the flight rules you are legally operating to and don't break them or combine them.
I have 30 years of experience to fall back on, and yet I still find myself challenged by the conditions that nature sometimes tests me with. Tropical Equatorial thunderstorms embedded in IMC are not the place to test your new skills in a single pilot IFR situation.
Single pilot IFR is a very serious business and demands a high level of training, not just in I/F skills, but in workload minimisation and management skills. Most schools do not teach this aspect and yet it significantly enhances your survival prospects.
CFI
Right on. Agree with you. However, what we say does not suit what fresh CPL's want to hear, EGO, IMPATIENCE, the importance of being Macho are closer to their hearts than the survival instinct that starts to surface after about age 25.
(1) You are not going to be able to use a M/E CIR with passengers until you have 1,000 Hrs.
(2) You should accumulate at least 500 Hrs before you even think about it !
(3) The flying schools don't care, they want your borrowed money, NOW !
Why am I so concerned about this ?
Quite simply, a little knowledge is very dangerous, a CIR might get you out of a tricky situation, but it is more likely to get you into it instead.
I know of a few low hour fresh CIR holders who used it to get into trouble ( deliberately breaking the Visual Flight Rules and going into IMC in a single, with no real experience behind them and guess what ? They usually spiral dive into the ground at high speed. ATSB records have numerous instances to research, better still, call an ATSB investigator and verify what I have seen.
Save your money, build your hours, then go back and get polished, it's a good time for relearning and polishing at 500 Hrs.
I cringe and despair every time a low hour pilot kills himself (sorry, usually only a male thing, it's ego related). I am angry when someone's ego results in the deaths of innocents who trusted the ability and training of the pilot who could not make the command decisions to avoid IMC during VFR flight.
If you decide to gain a CIR, please decide which set of rules you can safely operate to. DO NOT MIX VFR and IMC, it is usually fatal. Do not allow Ego to make decisions. Follow the flight rules you are legally operating to and don't break them or combine them.
I have 30 years of experience to fall back on, and yet I still find myself challenged by the conditions that nature sometimes tests me with. Tropical Equatorial thunderstorms embedded in IMC are not the place to test your new skills in a single pilot IFR situation.
Single pilot IFR is a very serious business and demands a high level of training, not just in I/F skills, but in workload minimisation and management skills. Most schools do not teach this aspect and yet it significantly enhances your survival prospects.
CFI
Right on. Agree with you. However, what we say does not suit what fresh CPL's want to hear, EGO, IMPATIENCE, the importance of being Macho are closer to their hearts than the survival instinct that starts to surface after about age 25.
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Australia
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know of a guy that had the bare minimum - completed his ME CIR with around 200 hours and then got a job flying a light twin (6 seater) casually (a couple a days a week) out of a Capital City. Went onto turbines as an FO at around the 800 hour mark and is now in the airlines as an FO flying jets and has about 6000 hours. Total time on singles is around 150 and all of his time after the 200 hour mark has been IFR.
Guess he was just lucky. He told me that an instructor rating never entered his mind.
Guess he was just lucky. He told me that an instructor rating never entered his mind.