Aussie pilots overseas..your experience??

[Big_johnjohn]

Is the grass greener elsewhere or should we be looking to settle down in aus and gain seniority?

if you live in the Middle East, Europe, US, what are your experiences and what would you encourage. Any insight into your schedules, ect

[MartyMcflyface]

As far as schedules go, the US is far better than the Middle East. The ability to drop, pick up and swap, with transparency of what trips are in open time (so you know what you may be called out for if on reserve) is great. Depending on the company and how quick the seniority progression is, you could be almost writing your own roster within a short time.

The Middle East on the other hand, you get what you are given and can only swap if it fits within some very strict limits that the company sets. No dropping or picking up trips that are uncrewed.

This is my experience and may vary with the different airlines.

[redsnail]

It depends on where you are in your career and how flexible you are in where you can go.
For Europe/UK, you need a visa/passport. Also, the licence conversion is a real ball ache and quite expensive. However, if you can afford it and have access, Europe is quite interesting.
Note - since Brexit, the rules have changed with respect to licence and employment. UK CAA versus EASA etc.
I moved to the UK back in 2001 to "see what happens". It was very unlikely I'd get a jet job in Australia and I had just lost my turboprop job in Sydney. So for me, options were very limited.
The first 2 years in the UK were tough, post Sept 11 etc, changing the licence and getting a job.

I joined NetJets Europe 19 years ago and haven't looked back. I got command 17 years ago and now fly the Challenger 350. My full time roster was basically 6 days on, 5 days off with 22-28 days leave. My days on were "away" from home. We could be sent anywhere from North Africa, Middle East, Europe, Iceland and Russia (no longer). I have done secondment tours in the US as well. Lots of very interesting flying including London City, Sion and Samedan (Swiss mountain airports).
Netjets is a large bizjet company with about 120 aircraft in Europe and over 400 aircraft in the US.
Next year I intend to retire and move back to Australia at 60yo.

[lucille]

Left Oz in 87. Never came back until retirement. It was the best thing I ever did. Thing is, you need to be flexible… meaning no kids. 20 years in the ME including 10 in Jeddah. Enjoyed every minute of living there as did my wife. Then time in USA, Singapore and Hong Kong all excellent.

If you have kids then the only options are the major carriers… EK, QR, CX etc. They provide a semblance of longevity and school fees are paid.

As Redsnail said, corporate flying is excellent. Huge variety and control over every aspect of the operation.

[Checkboard]

Left Australia after the Ansett Collapse, and arrived in the UK August 2002 with an Australian ATPL, 7500 hours and 737 and BAe146 ratings. I had a UK grandmother, so I could get a four year ancestry working visa.

As I didn't have 1500 hrs in command in types above 60 tons, I couldn't get a validation on my Aus ATPL, so had to sit all 14 JAR theory exams and then hire (as a private citizen) a 737 Sim, hire a Type Rating Examiner, a sandbag for the other seat and a CAA observer (as it was my first UK rating) to do a self-sponsored LPC/OPC to get a JAR ATPL with 737 ratings. That was a pain - and as the airline I joined bought some ex-Ansett 737s, this was all to fly exactly the same airframes I was flying in Australia.

Everyone was desperate for 737 pilots at the time (in the UK) as RyanAir, easyJet, BA, Jet2 etc were all flying them. I applied for only one airline, was interviewed and accepted. At the time they were upgrading to command at 3000 hours, while I had 7500 - but I hadn't flown for two years, hadn't flowin in Europe, hadn't flown airline command and hadn't flown the 737NG so I joined in the right hand seat and was upgraded to command just over six months later. I've been there, same airline, same base ever since - although swapped to the A320 14 years ago.

Money is OK to good. Job security is very good - even through Covid. Flying is ILS to ILS on autopilot, so generally not as challenging/skillful as I was flying in Australia I would say, with the obvious exception of Winter Operations. I think sim check standards in Australia were a little higher (some might say "pedantic") but that is very airline based. The training department here is still world-class though.

I've been happy enough to see out a career here - finishing up next year and heading back to Australia to retire.

[Dora-9]

It's possibly a statement of the bleeding obvious, but you need to be aware of just how different it can be living in another country. You also need to be aware of different airline cultures.

Your success or otherwise depends on how you deal with these. If you find yourself thinking something like "I wish it was the same is it is at home" then you're doomed to misery, however if you accept your new situation for what it is, and concentrate on the good points, then you will have a ball.

I left Australia just prior to the Dispute in 1989 for Hong Kong. I went from living on acreage, driving myself to work, flying for a "fun" airline that was also highly standardized to living in a flat, having to catch a bus to work, flying for an outfit that had some truly "funny" ideas, there was little fun, and the FE's took delight in treating New Joiners like dirt. But I worked through this - in retrospect moving overseas was the single best decision I've ever made.

[krismiler]

It depends entirely on your circumstances, if you’re young and single go for it. However if you’ve got a wife and kids in tow then a lot more thought is required.

Career progression will probably be a lot faster, my airline was upgrading 3000 hour F/Os into the left seat when I joined them.

Once you’ve been abroad for a few years, it’ll be difficult to move back home and start at the bottom again. A 40 year old B777 Captain in the Middle East will have a hard time financially if they join QF or Virgin at the back of the seniority list as a narrow body F/O. Sticking around till 55+ and cashed up, then going back as a DEC at something like Alliance or Network might be doable.

Basically, if you go, you grab some experience and come back early or you stay abroad until close to retirement. A mid career return from about 35 - 55 won’t be easy.

Leaving was the best career move I made, after retirement I probably stay abroad for a few years and be back in Australia when I’m about 70.

[bafanguy]

Originally Posted by Dora-9

...there was little fun, and the FE's took delight in treating New Joiners like dirt.

D-9,

Why would the F/Es do that ?

[SOPS]

After 89…moved to the Netherlands.17 wonderful years in a great airline. Then to the ME. Not such a great idea. I love being home now, and enjoy my paid hobby, driving trains.

[Gnadenburg]

If financially literate, one year overseas, can be worth multiple years in Australia. Trouble being, the expat life and international friendships, become addictive, making Australia rather bland.

After losing my job at Ansett, went abroad and worked out the Middle East wasn’t for me. Hated the culture. Found Hong Kong delightful. COVID ended that but came out of retirement to fly in the US for a freight carrier. Month on having a blast and a month off back in Australia. The Americans are the easiest people I’ve worked with in aviation. I have the f&@k you money- which meant I lasted a few months at a Aussie regional- but the US hasn’t even come close to pulling that card.

Open your mind and go have an expat adventure!

[greybeard]

Off overseas, never gave it a thought until a midnight my time phone call to go to France in 1 days time!!!

Said yes, F-28 Command, flying with Australian F/Os spent 13 months flying all over Europe before the Common Market times.
Then to Belgium, more F-28, 21 months flying with BELGIAN F/Os, Different dynamics, good fun, more Europe flying.

Off to Singapore Flying College in Singapore, Learjet 31 with 200 hr Cadets. Great fun
After 5 years offered an A-310 Command, training duties, lots of new and some old places in Australia.
SIA ceased A-310 Ops when I then returned to Australia.
Six years of Simulator training for various Companies, Australian, Taiwanese, Mongolian, Myanmar through Alteon.
Thirteen years away plus 6 years of commuting, left the industry to drive School Busses, tuff gig that one.

An unexpected major part of my life well enjoyed

[kikatinalong]

I left Oz in 2000. Got my first job in GA at Bankstown flying charter and bank runs in 89. Stayed until I got into the regionals in 96. It looked like flying regional was going to be the pinnacle of my career in Australia. As I had the right to live and work in UK, I thought I'd give it a go and was lucky enough to score a 747 classic FO gig. Upgraded to CA on the -400 after 4 years, got to fly the - 8 for 18 months as well. After 15 years of long haul, family needs meant I had to be home a bit more. Got my current job on the 757 in 2015. This will be my last year on the 75 as they are retireing the last of them at the end of the year. The current plan is for me to to start an A321 course in Nov. I've got 8 years left, so I'll see my time out in the UK, although I do plan to go back to Oz once I'm done and maybe become a grey nomad, Although, if a certain orange and silver airline neeeds a A32x sim trainer when the time comes, some beer money would be much appreciated.

Has it been worth it? I feel I have gone further tha,n was possible had I stayed in Australia. with the industry the way it was back in 2000. Things will have changed dramatically since I left. Back then, if you wanted to fly the big jets there was really only QF and AN. VB was just starting out. NJ was the other option. I know a few of the other regionals were bracnhing into jets in a small way (KD, FW etc).

Lifestyle wise. I miss some things about Australia. But just like the UK, Australia has its problems. As I once said to my wife when some redundancies were looming. Lets go back dununda, If we're going to be destitute, might as well be destitute on a nice beach.

Kika,

[umop apisdn]

Moving overseas was always a temporary thing for me and I always planned to get the experience and go back. Then I got a green card, legacy job and golden handcuffs. You never really know where you're going to end up on the journey.

Now I'd probably honestly end up getting fired from any Australian airline, as a lot of the norms that pilots there are used to there would probably see me defiantly opposed to them.

A few months ago we were home, in a dodgy-ish suburb of Melbourne to boot, and I really did miss it. Beautiful parks, wide open spaces, food produced under stricter standards and the great USD - AUD exchange rate.

In the US you think about things that you wouldn't normally. The quality of schools and medical care, how safe or unsafe certain cities or places are, the political undertones of areas and how they will one day affect how your kids are educated. I rarely, if ever, thought about any of this in Australia.

I can easily imagine myself commuting from Australia one day to get all the good things out of it that the US lacks.

[prickly]

Originally Posted by Dora-9

It's possibly a statement of the bleeding obvious, but you need to be aware of just how different it can be living in another country. You also need to be aware of different airline cultures.

Your success or otherwise depends on how you deal with these. If you find yourself thinking something like "I wish it was the same is it is at home" then you're doomed to misery, however if you accept your new situation for what it is, and concentrate on the good points, then you will have a ball.

I left Australia just prior to the Dispute in 1989 for Hong Kong. I went from living on acreage, driving myself to work, flying for a "fun" airline that was also highly standardized to living in a flat, having to catch a bus to work, flying for an outfit that had some truly "funny" ideas, there was little fun, and the FE's took delight in treating New Joiners like dirt. But I worked through this - in retrospect moving overseas was the single best decision I've ever made.

Strange really, I moved to Hong Kong just a year or so earlier in '88 and had 20 years of the most amazing fun.
In those days( pre B scales) terms and conditions were among the best anywhere and low tax., allowances up the gazoo, travel fund, education allowance, free medical, a housing allowance that would buy you a house or good sized boat. No need to live in a flat, that appealed to singles or couples who wanted to be in the middle of the action. Plenty of areas offering 2100sq house to rent or buy in semi rural settings, drive to work, spend days off on your boat etc. Drive to TST or HK island for a night out, so many options.
Now in retirement I miss it like hell, but of course it's no longer the same.
My problem was, and I am guessing others too feel OZ is not what they expected or remembered on return or retirement.
FE's, most I knew where great guys, you could always tell the drop kicks to go to buggery.
All airlines have some different ideas, not necessarily "funny",

[prickly]

Originally Posted by Checkboard

Left Australia after the Ansett Collapse, and arrived in the UK August 2002 with an Australian ATPL, 7500 hours and 737 and BAe146 ratings. I had a UK grandmother, so I could get a four year ancestry working visa.

As I didn't have 1500 hrs in command in types above 60 tons, I couldn't get a validation on my Aus ATPL, so had to sit all 14 JAR theory exams and then hire (as a private citizen) a 737 Sim, hire a Type Rating Examiner, a sandbag for the other seat and a CAA observer (as it was my first UK rating) to do a self-sponsored LPC/OPC to get a JAR ATPL with 737 ratings. That was a pain - and as the airline I joined bought some ex-Ansett 737s, this was all to fly exactly the same airframes I was flying in Australia.

Everyone was desperate for 737 pilots at the time (in the UK) as RyanAir, easyJet, BA, Jet2 etc were all flying them. I applied for only one airline, was interviewed and accepted. At the time they were upgrading to command at 3000 hours, while I had 7500 - but I hadn't flown for two years, hadn't flowin in Europe, hadn't flown airline command and hadn't flown the 737NG so I joined in the right hand seat and was upgraded to command just over six months later. I've been there, same airline, same base ever since - although swapped to the A320 14 years ago.

Money is OK to good. Job security is very good - even through Covid. Flying is ILS to ILS on autopilot, so generally not as challenging/skillful as I was flying in Australia I would say, with the obvious exception of Winter Operations. I think sim check standards in Australia were a little higher (some might say "pedantic") but that is very airline based. The training department here is still world-class though.

I've been happy enough to see out a career here - finishing up next year and heading back to Australia to retire.

Checkboard, congrats on your career and upcoming retirement.

Don't expect things to be the same here in OZ as before. It's different now, you will be different now, you may not want what you had before.
I say this because as much as I loved living OS I also longed to come home and I immediately did what I had planned, to my regret. I found I had changed and no longer wanted the things I had thought I wanted.
I don't presumed to preach but take a deep breath is my tip.

[Gnadenburg]

I don’t mean to digress and hopefully it has some relevance to the thread. A considerable adjustment when abroad, probably more relevant to the Middle East and Asia, is a frustrating developing world aspect to services. Services are manned by imported labour and can be rigid and poor quality. Coming home to Australia, after twenty years away and it’s very similar. Our immigration program ( whether good for the country or bad ) has changed our society forever in dramatic fashion. Australia of the last millennial is a distance memory.

[Checkboard]

I don't presumed to preach but take a deep breath is my tip.

I am well aware. After so long, you become a creature of both worlds, and of neither.

We are moving back to a place that neither my wife nor I have lived in before - so it would be different in any case. It is in my thoughts, though.

[abfgh]

Originally Posted by Checkboard

I am well aware. After so long, you become a creature of both worlds, and of neither.

We are moving back to a place that neither my wife nor I have lived in before - so it would be different in any case. It is in my thoughts, though.

Same idea here! ….. just without the wife.

[Ollie Onion]

I went to the UK with 250 hours and a CPL/IR, picked up a Cadetship straight into an A320 with a low cost carrier, two years later was accepted to a Legacy carrier on the A320 and spent 12 years flying all over the world on A320s, 777s in the RHS. Over the 12 years it was unusual to fly with the same Captain twice and most months had destinations I had never seen before. Open time was done online and we could swap trips, drop trips or pick up extra flying with ZERO interference from any human. Family brought me back to Australia and I have been amazed ever since just how many years behind we are. In 2003 in the UK we were doing Flap 3 landings, APU off arrivals and single engine taxi on every flight, her we are just starting to adopt this stuff now. We still don’t have any form of open time let alone an automated one and crew control would have a flip out if we were able to swap without their permission.mThe money was better, the flying was better, the training was better and the experience was invaluable. It wasn’t Australia though and seemed a hell of a long way away when parents etc had health issues, lifestyle better for my kids and weather certainly better here. It is a balancing act, I would strongly encourage anyone with the opportunity to go see the world, having said that if it suits you better to stay here then do that.

[clear to land]

Between 88 to 2002 I did GA bush flying, Military flying, Coastwatch, RFDS and then VB. On a 4 day pattern in late 2001 and 3rd sector of MEL/SYD/MEL/SYD/MEL I decided that there was no way I could do that for the next 30 years (or even 10) so applied and was accepted to EK. I have seen/experienced far more of the world than I ever would have imagined, have had amazing holidays an family time and also it has been reasonable for the bank balance. Professionally I have achieved far more than would ever have been possible in the Australian 'small pond'' as Aus sadly doesn't even really have a truly international airline. After nearly 20 years away the biggest problem is working out where to retire-and by that I mean which country. The longer you are an expat the harder it is to give it up. We are now seriously considering living between 2 countries for summer and winter as we realise that Australia, while not bad, has changed significantly from the country we left (look at how it treated its own citizens during covid, and the way they accepted it!), as has our perspective. One of the biggest issues of moving abroad in aviation is you will be dealing with the 'austronaut' legacy, which I understand from friends still flying in Aus is sadly very much alive and well still.