AirMed PA-31 VH-HJE down south of Archerfield
morno
You say:
why these old POS pistons are flying aeromedical flights in 2023 is beyond me. Should not be allowed.
You ask why, morno?
let’s look at all the factors as to why piston twins are still working in Oz, and are commercially viable.
here is a fun (autocorrect) heads up.....because these are government issued contracts. Because the gubmint contribute to the drive to the bottom in GA by accepting only the cheapest tender. Usually the cheapest tender is provided on the basis of providing cash flow to the tenderer, not an actual profit.
At the same time, the gubmint are quite happy to find retired politicians, and artworks that look like ****e, and broken furniture in Parliament House caused by pollies dancing on marble coffee tables (here is looking at you, Joe Hockey) and steam cleaning ministers couches due to sex acts....shall I continue?
if this turns out to be fuel exhaustion, then we should be looking at three people - the PIC (who did not put an extra few litres for good luck) and the CP who put the fear of God into the PIC to take fuel minimas...and the clueless dickwad in Govt who accepted the cheapest tender without wondering WHY that tender was so cheap.
The Younited Staytes of Murrka have a reputation for electing some pretty strange peeps as their President, they have a gun ownership rate that frightens the pants off me, wages that truely suck, no healthcare........but by God, they look after GA. No ASICS, for starters. It is one of the few areas where they do beat Australia, hands down.
let’s look at the other factor.
without a piston twin, the stepping stones in GA are C210, C208, B200. Turbines are fantastic...right up until the point where some newby cooks them. Which can be done oh so quickly.
piston twins remain a viable, valuable step in GA progression.
You say:
why these old POS pistons are flying aeromedical flights in 2023 is beyond me. Should not be allowed.
You ask why, morno?
let’s look at all the factors as to why piston twins are still working in Oz, and are commercially viable.
here is a fun (autocorrect) heads up.....because these are government issued contracts. Because the gubmint contribute to the drive to the bottom in GA by accepting only the cheapest tender. Usually the cheapest tender is provided on the basis of providing cash flow to the tenderer, not an actual profit.
At the same time, the gubmint are quite happy to find retired politicians, and artworks that look like ****e, and broken furniture in Parliament House caused by pollies dancing on marble coffee tables (here is looking at you, Joe Hockey) and steam cleaning ministers couches due to sex acts....shall I continue?
if this turns out to be fuel exhaustion, then we should be looking at three people - the PIC (who did not put an extra few litres for good luck) and the CP who put the fear of God into the PIC to take fuel minimas...and the clueless dickwad in Govt who accepted the cheapest tender without wondering WHY that tender was so cheap.
The Younited Staytes of Murrka have a reputation for electing some pretty strange peeps as their President, they have a gun ownership rate that frightens the pants off me, wages that truely suck, no healthcare........but by God, they look after GA. No ASICS, for starters. It is one of the few areas where they do beat Australia, hands down.
let’s look at the other factor.
without a piston twin, the stepping stones in GA are C210, C208, B200. Turbines are fantastic...right up until the point where some newby cooks them. Which can be done oh so quickly.
piston twins remain a viable, valuable step in GA progression.
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CP who put the fear of God into the PIC to take fuel minimas
I reckon, in this case the CP is saying '**** me, how in Christ's name.............?'
Are you going to persist in picking the fly **** out of the pepper? The various tracking websites disclose how data is derived and displayed, it's not difficult to find.
Tossbag, a Navajo ran out of gas and completed a dead stick landing at Amberley years ago. That flight was poorly handled but recovered to complete a landing without injury or damage. After being rechecked by casa pilot continued on as a instructor without too much character damage.
The aircraft left Archerfield after midnight and flew to Bankstown. After an hour at Bankstown it returned to Archerfield (almost).
Likely the same pilot AF BK AF, but maybe not.
Similar fuel required both ways, and with a min reserve of 30-45 mins plus crappy wx forecast in the Brisbane area, it’s unlikely to have run out of fuel.
????
Likely the same pilot AF BK AF, but maybe not.
Similar fuel required both ways, and with a min reserve of 30-45 mins plus crappy wx forecast in the Brisbane area, it’s unlikely to have run out of fuel.
????
Really? When you have posters claiming knowledge of the aircraft speed relative to blue line from on line tracking data. Give me a break.
morno
here is a fun (autocorrect) heads up.....because these are government issued contracts. Because the gubmint contribute to the drive to the bottom in GA by accepting only the cheapest tender. Usually the cheapest tender is provided on the basis of providing cash flow to the tenderer, not an actual profit.
At the same time, the gubmint are quite happy to find retired politicians, and artworks that look like ****e, and broken furniture in Parliament House caused by pollies dancing on marble coffee tables (here is looking at you, Joe Hockey) and steam cleaning ministers couches due to sex acts....shall I continue?
here is a fun (autocorrect) heads up.....because these are government issued contracts. Because the gubmint contribute to the drive to the bottom in GA by accepting only the cheapest tender. Usually the cheapest tender is provided on the basis of providing cash flow to the tenderer, not an actual profit.
At the same time, the gubmint are quite happy to find retired politicians, and artworks that look like ****e, and broken furniture in Parliament House caused by pollies dancing on marble coffee tables (here is looking at you, Joe Hockey) and steam cleaning ministers couches due to sex acts....shall I continue?
I asked someone recently in a health department who looks at operators if they ever considered making sure the operator paid award conditions or better, they response was what does that have to do with us?
Duty of care and all that but seriously the PA31-350 is a beast of an aircraft, however after Whyalla the question was really, RPT in a 30 year old twin still, well 20 years later and…….. same twin.
There are replacements but they are $$$$$. Before my time but in the 70’s didn’t the gubmint bring in a huge tax incentive to buy new? Time to do it again? The US of A has had a huge tax deal on buying assets, well it was the Trump regime, not sure if Gramps has repealed it yet.
Ok back to topic… Great job putting the Chief down there (not discussing why).
Back in the late 90’s another Chieftain ran out fuel inbound to Temora. The aircraft crashed through the boundary fence.
The PA31 has mains and aux tanks and to fly any distance you need fuel in both. The fuel selects are also different in the Navajo and the Chieftain.
The PA31 has mains and aux tanks and to fly any distance you need fuel in both. The fuel selects are also different in the Navajo and the Chieftain.
The PA31 has mains and aux tanks and to fly any distance you need fuel in both. The fuel selects are also different in the Navajo and the Chieftain.
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Not to mention the Chiefs with the wing locker/nacelle tanks!!! From rusty memory what was that 900lt total!
And the different gear speeds depending on the model/ year of manufacture.
I know it was a different time, but back in the 80’s you needed a 1000 hours total time (minimum) before anyone would let you near a Baron, 310, 402 or a PA31.
I know it was a different time, but back in the 80’s you needed a 1000 hours total time (minimum) before anyone would let you near a Baron, 310, 402 or a PA31.
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Duty of care and all that but seriously the PA31-350 is a beast of an aircraft, however after Whyalla the question was really, RPT in a 30 year old twin still, well 20 years later and…….. same twin.
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morno
You say:
why these old POS pistons are flying aeromedical flights in 2023 is beyond me. Should not be allowed.
You ask why, morno?
let’s look at all the factors as to why piston twins are still working in Oz, and are commercially viable.
here is a fun (autocorrect) heads up.....because these are government issued contracts. Because the gubmint contribute to the drive to the bottom in GA by accepting only the cheapest tender. Usually the cheapest tender is provided on the basis of providing cash flow to the tenderer, not an actual profit.
At the same time, the gubmint are quite happy to find retired politicians, and artworks that look like ****e, and broken furniture in Parliament House caused by pollies dancing on marble coffee tables (here is looking at you, Joe Hockey) and steam cleaning ministers couches due to sex acts....shall I continue?
if this turns out to be fuel exhaustion, then we should be looking at three people - the PIC (who did not put an extra few litres for good luck) and the CP who put the fear of God into the PIC to take fuel minimas...and the clueless dickwad in Govt who accepted the cheapest tender without wondering WHY that tender was so cheap.
The Younited Staytes of Murrka have a reputation for electing some pretty strange peeps as their President, they have a gun ownership rate that frightens the pants off me, wages that truely suck, no healthcare........but by God, they look after GA. No ASICS, for starters. It is one of the few areas where they do beat Australia, hands down.
let’s look at the other factor.
without a piston twin, the stepping stones in GA are C210, C208, B200. Turbines are fantastic...right up until the point where some newby cooks them. Which can be done oh so quickly.
piston twins remain a viable, valuable step in GA progression.
You say:
why these old POS pistons are flying aeromedical flights in 2023 is beyond me. Should not be allowed.
You ask why, morno?
let’s look at all the factors as to why piston twins are still working in Oz, and are commercially viable.
here is a fun (autocorrect) heads up.....because these are government issued contracts. Because the gubmint contribute to the drive to the bottom in GA by accepting only the cheapest tender. Usually the cheapest tender is provided on the basis of providing cash flow to the tenderer, not an actual profit.
At the same time, the gubmint are quite happy to find retired politicians, and artworks that look like ****e, and broken furniture in Parliament House caused by pollies dancing on marble coffee tables (here is looking at you, Joe Hockey) and steam cleaning ministers couches due to sex acts....shall I continue?
if this turns out to be fuel exhaustion, then we should be looking at three people - the PIC (who did not put an extra few litres for good luck) and the CP who put the fear of God into the PIC to take fuel minimas...and the clueless dickwad in Govt who accepted the cheapest tender without wondering WHY that tender was so cheap.
The Younited Staytes of Murrka have a reputation for electing some pretty strange peeps as their President, they have a gun ownership rate that frightens the pants off me, wages that truely suck, no healthcare........but by God, they look after GA. No ASICS, for starters. It is one of the few areas where they do beat Australia, hands down.
let’s look at the other factor.
without a piston twin, the stepping stones in GA are C210, C208, B200. Turbines are fantastic...right up until the point where some newby cooks them. Which can be done oh so quickly.
piston twins remain a viable, valuable step in GA progression.
When you’re carrying people who have no choice in the type of aircraft that they’re going in (patients), then I’m a firm believer in that you should be carried in the safest option that is currently out there on the market in terms of aircraft, and you should also have a minimum experience requirement for the person operating that aircraft.
So basically it should be a pressurised twin turbine, with a pilot who has at least a few thousand hours (which is a whole other discussion in times like now when those pilots are getting harder and harder to find).
They don’t have learner drivers in the front of Holden Panel Vans doing patient transfers on the road, so the equivalent shouldn’t be doing it in the air.
Back in the late 90’s another Chieftain ran out fuel inbound to Temora. The aircraft crashed through the boundary fence.
The PA31 has mains and aux tanks and to fly any distance you need fuel in both. The fuel selects are also different in the Navajo and the Chieftain.
The PA31 has mains and aux tanks and to fly any distance you need fuel in both. The fuel selects are also different in the Navajo and the Chieftain.
Suspected PAX-induced pilot inattention to fuel state…
Bottom line is no one wants to pay the necessary price for a twin turbine when a piston can do it cheaper. Also not mentioned is cam shaft failures on chieftains, these engines rarely make TBO of 1800 hours any more because the lobes on the cam shafts break down causing the engine to not produce full power. I’ve seen it happen between 600 and 1200 hours on numerous occasions.
And back to reality, the nature of the work these planes do plays more a part on accident rate than the type. There have been 400 odd fatal accidents in PA31s over the years and 300 odd fatal King air accidents. When corrected for fleet numbers the rate of loss is about the same, the Navajo probably comes out better when balanced for fleet hours flown due to them being charter/RPT workhorses for a long time while King Airs were low use business and charter. Most of the accidents are not engine failures, but rather operational, loss of control in IMC, descending below minimas and so on, King Airs have their fair share of engine failure accidents as well.
Now it goes without saying that operationally the King Air is a better aircraft for aeromedical operations, it can out climb weather and has better speed and range profiles. But is it safer as such, the statistics say not by much, it just crashes in different ways. The operator really determines the safety of the equipment by ensuring adequate maintenance, training, procedures and limitations that keep the aircraft well inside safe operating margins. The age question really comes down to how much the operator wants to spend to keep ageing machinery operating, the unsafe factor comes in when they don't maintain the old machines to the correct standard, or apply suitable margins to guard against performance degradation (which may not be much if it's maintained to top spec).
For that to happen is really one of two things, manufacturing error, or re using parts in cheap overhauls or just cheap overhauls. Turbines are no different, just you can see straight away from operating temps vs torque whether or not you got duded on overhauls, but if they give you a real ****ty job you might even get turbine or compressor blades visiting you in the cabin on holiday.
Now it goes without saying that operationally the King Air is a better aircraft for aeromedical operations, it can out climb weather and has better speed and range profiles. But is it safer as such, the statistics say not by much, it just crashes in different ways. The operator really determines the safety of the equipment by ensuring adequate maintenance, training, procedures and limitations that keep the aircraft well inside safe operating margins. The age question really comes down to how much the operator wants to spend to keep ageing machinery operating, the unsafe factor comes in when they don't maintain the old machines to the correct standard, or apply suitable margins to guard against performance degradation (which may not be much if it's maintained to top spec).
Also not mentioned is cam shaft failures on chieftains, these engines rarely make TBO of 1800 hours any more because the lobes on the cam shafts break down causing the engine to not produce full power.
Morno, it is my understanding that the pilot was the only person on board this flight.
no pax, just a bunch of eskies in the back (willing to be corrected).
so, in this case, a piston twin was the best (cheapest) option.
re pilot experience (yes, I know, thread drift).
A pilot with thousands of hours of experience on twins can still make a rock solid effort to monumentally FTU in a B200. Google Desert Dick, KingAir, Mount Gambier, and ask yourself how TF he managed to fly a circuit AFTER installing Q tip props in flight.
Pratt & Whitney should use photos of that particular accident to advertise how robust their engines are.
no pax, just a bunch of eskies in the back (willing to be corrected).
so, in this case, a piston twin was the best (cheapest) option.
re pilot experience (yes, I know, thread drift).
A pilot with thousands of hours of experience on twins can still make a rock solid effort to monumentally FTU in a B200. Google Desert Dick, KingAir, Mount Gambier, and ask yourself how TF he managed to fly a circuit AFTER installing Q tip props in flight.
Pratt & Whitney should use photos of that particular accident to advertise how robust their engines are.
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