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Another airport being ruined by rich bastards

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Another airport being ruined by rich bastards

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Old 24th Oct 2022, 06:41
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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The 30 threshold has always been permanently displaced about 30 metres from the physical end of the tarmac, or it has for at least the last 40 years. As I keep telling you, I know, from first-hand experience, how close aircraft on approach to 30 get to vehicles on Sherger. (But perhaps my first-hand observation is just opinion…)

As to the obstacles on the Parkway (and anywhere else), there are these things called the Civil Aviation (Building Control) Regulations and a street light constitutes an ‘object’ within the meaning of those Regulations. But Essendon - out of many examples - tells us how diligently those Regulations are enforced in the interests of aviation safety when it’s getting in the way of someone making money.
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 21:22
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Another piece of disingenuous comment by Morgan is the reference to the IKEA development. The graphic he showed is approximately 8 years old and is not on aerodrome property. If he had read the Master Plan when it was published he would have seen this:

Most of the land north and south of the Airport is used for broadacre purposes because it is overflown by aircraft or because of its long association with Department of Defence activities. This land (including the Airport) was denoted as a new Employment Corridor in the Canberra Spatial Plan2 . The ACT Government’s Eastern Broadacre Planning Study has identified commercial and industrial land use opportunities adjoining the Airport, west of Majura Road opposite the Airport’s Majura Park. The ACT Government has already rezoned a 7.8 hectare parcel for bulky good retail as the initial stage of an investigation area. Both the rezoned and planning investigation areas are designed to leverage off the planning, investment and risk undertaken by Canberra Airport in developing Majura Park over the past fourteen years. The outcome of this development will be increased revenue to the ACT from land sales, which commenced in 2014 with IKEA.
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 22:26
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
The 30 threshold has always been permanently displaced about 30 metres from the physical end of the tarmac, or it has for at least the last 40 years. As I keep telling you, I know, from first-hand experience, how close aircraft on approach to 30 get to vehicles on Sherger. (But perhaps my first-hand observation is just opinion…)
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 23:15
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
As to the obstacles on the Parkway (and anywhere else), there are these things called the Civil Aviation (Building Control) Regulations and a street light constitutes an ‘object’ within the meaning of those Regulations. But Essendon - out of many examples - tells us how diligently those Regulations are enforced in the interests of aviation safety when it’s getting in the way of someone making money.
NOTAMs come in handy there. It seems all anyone needs to do these days to get away with constructing a warehouse or two within an airport's OLS is file a "permanent" NOTAM and chuck the risk onto the poor sucker in the cockpit. Check the current YMEN NOTAMs and you'll see what I mean. Moorabbin is another...and the NOTAMs will only get longer.
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Old 24th Oct 2022, 23:25
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The 30 threshold has always been permanently displaced about 30 metres from the physical end of the tarmac, or it has for at least the last 40 years.
That would take the displaced threshold to 1982 and I can tell you from personal experience that there was no displaced threshold back then or even for a good number of years afterwards. I noticed the flash fire station in the picture so maybe the threshold was moved when the old brick one was replaced.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 01:15
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The 30 threshold has always been permanently displaced about 30 metres from the physical end of the tarmac
It's 65m as per all the docs, but it's got nothing to do with where the tarmac is. That's just historical in this case I'd say.
how close aircraft on approach to 30 get to vehicles on Sherger.
Are the aircraft flying a 5% or greater approach? They would be, of course, because that's what it says the threshold is calculated on when they checked the appropriate documentation as they planned their flight, so why would they fly lower? They might hit something.
Let's say the 5% was calculated on the road. I have no idea if it was, but let's use it for the purposes of the exercise.(*) It's 150m from the centre line of the north bound lane (closest to threshold) to white displaced threshold bar. That means a truck (not a car) would have to be 7.6m tall to actually hit the top of it. Most trucks are between 3-4m. If you are aiming for the first set of touchdown markers (at 300m from the road), the truck would have to be 15m tall. If you go to where most of the rubber is, (around 430m) the truck would have to be 21m tall.
If they fly to a 3% (which they shouldn't for reasons already mentioned) the numbers are 4.5m, 9m, and 13m. Yea, the truck will look close, but you would have to be in a gross, gross undershoot to actually hit anything

(*) Strangely enough if you calculate 5% from a 4.2m obstacle in the middle of the north lane, add 60m as you must, the threshold ends up where the displaced threshold is now, so they may be using the road traffic as the critical obstacle for the approach clearances.
Doing the same thing back from where the threshold is displaced from ie where it should be, (where the tarmac ends in this case (the end of RWY 12)), gives 1.2m at the roadside, probably where the old 4' stock fence used to be back when that was all the fence needed.

Midnight, nice video, been around a long time, but it's a departure off 17. Hard to see relevance to this issue.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 02:20
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Are the aircraft flying a 5% or greater approach? They would be, of course, because that's what it says the threshold is calculated on when they checked the appropriate documentation as they planned their flight, so why would they fly lower? They might hit something.
I've got no real skin in this game other than an interested observer but for those who have can you at least stop making statements that you have no idea of. London airport (not Heathrow)uses a 5.5% gradient. I doubt that 30 is predicated on one.

Only multi-engine, fixed-wing aircraft up to Airbus A318 size with special aircraft and aircrew certification to fly 5.5° approaches are allowed to conduct operations at London City Airport.[7][8]
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 02:38
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I doubt that 30 is predicated on one.
Read the RDS
RDS YSCB
Check RWY 17 as well.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 03:56
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The old MOS139 detailed where the RWY Threshold should be in a couple of sentences and very briefly referred to high approach angles and Displaced Thresholds. The current MOS139 now needs half a page with several subsections dealing with Displaced Thresholds.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 04:40
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Extrapolating 3% back along the 12 approach from a displaced threshold moved (upto) 450m (the figure mentioned in the Master Plan - I've used 450) gives an obstacle height at Majura Rd of 21m. That's a pretty high light pole, so maybe they won't go 450m. What 450m does give is plenty of clearance NW of Majura Rd for development, but that's not airport land. The deciding factor will be the take off clearance from RWY30 which at the published 3.69% from the end of the RWY30 strip (gable markers) gives 9m at the road. This exists now, but the 12 approach is the current overriding issue.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 06:03
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If you are aiming for the first set of touchdown markers [on RWY 30] (at 300m from the road), the truck would have to be 15m tall. If you go to where most of the rubber is, (around 430m) the truck would have to be 21m tall.
On every standard circuit I did during training at YSCB, the instructor instructed me to aim for and land on the piano keys. That remains my habit.

Do the maths on that.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 06:28
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Both the rezoned and planning investigation areas are designed to leverage off the planning, investment and risk undertaken by Canberra Airport in developing Majura Park over the past fourteen years.
That, right there, is hilarious. "Risk"? Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells.

At best, the lessor took advantage of what must have been a mule-stupid bureaucracy which didn't understand the development options and potential of the land when it granted a 99 year lease for $40 million in 1998. At best.

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Old 25th Oct 2022, 06:48
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Originally Posted by Lead Balloon
That, right there, is hilarious. "Risk"? Pull the other one, it plays jingle bells.

At best, the lessor took advantage of what must have been a mule-stupid bureaucracy which didn't understand the development options and potential of the land when it granted a 99 year lease for $40 million in 1998. At best.
Risk? There's always risk with these developments.. the risk that people might walk slowly rather than actually run to take up CAG's preferred sub-lease options on the newly-opened lots. Developers have been taking advantage of mule-stupid bureaucracy in this country from long before airports were fair game.. for example, take the 99 year grazing lease Keith Williams signed for Hamilton Island.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 07:25
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Are the aircraft flying a 5% or greater approach? They would be, of course,
No they would not be. If you fly aircraft try a 5% gradient and see what that looks like.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 08:39
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Do the maths on that.
As I said, to the white stripe would give 7.6m above the road.
No they would not be. If you fly aircraft try a 5% gradient and see what that looks like.
I'm only saying what the approach gradient has been published at. If you want to fly under it.....
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 09:02
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Traffic_Is_Er_Was
As I said, to the white stripe would give 7.6m above the road.<snip>
And what 'clearance' would that give to a vehicle on the road below?

But don't sweat it. We all know the extents to which some people will go to 'prove' that some long-standing piece of GA infrastructure has to be sacrificed in the interests of ... what's it dressed up as? ... 'safety'.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 09:13
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I don't remember Runway 30 being that ****en hard. So long as your CASA medical is current and you passed the colour blind test.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 09:31
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It was ****en easy, and the occasional vehicle a few metres below was the driver's problem.
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 09:36
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Like it was at Barwon Heads?
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Old 25th Oct 2022, 11:26
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I'm only saying what the approach gradient has been published at. If you want to fly under it.....
Like I said don't write about things you don't know about. Pilots legally fly less than a 5% gradient and with a surveyed flight path every day in complete safety and without the need to use any special technique. Pilots will refer to a document more relevant to them i.e. Jepps or equivalent. Have a look at the gradient required for the RNP approach then checkout the gradient using the PAPI for slope guidance. Hint not 5%
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