Instructors disadvantaged
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Mainframe wrote....
The newly graduated CPL is not likely to .....
(i) .....
(ii) .....
(iii) go straight into S/E passenger carry charter in remote areas
(i) .....
(ii) .....
(iii) go straight into S/E passenger carry charter in remote areas
(ii) Agreed.
(iii) Don't hold with that one, sorry mate. A (round figures - 200hr), guy that I used to share a flat with in Kunna's scored just that in Broome. Another one (similar hrs), I know scored just the same sort of thing (100% chtr) in Wyndham a couple of months earlier. Both of these guys had minimal hours, but obviously came across to their present employers as having the mental ability and skills grounding to do the job. They both fly S/E retractables, and both have the ability to move onto twins within their respective companies at a later date.
These examples happened this very year!
I was also lucky enough to walk into a (OK, it found me), C210 job with less than 400hrs (around 50% scenic, and 50% charter - anywhere from Borroloola in the NE to Docker River in the SW of the Territory and all points in between), and you cannot get any more remote than the very middle of the country, can you? Admittedly I had done some previous meatbombing, and had a few more hours than a raw CPL, but the point I'm getting at is I am not anything special, yet was able to find someone willing to give me a go with the hours I had at the time.
OK, I can see the reasoning behind some of what you have written, and I believe that you have put a lot of thought into it, but THANK CHRIST the country still has some operators willing to give low hour guys a go (and pay them OK too).
All the rest of you, don't lose hope, it still so happens that low hour guys can still get a start in the industry just about anywhere.
All interesting posts above...seems there is no right or wrong answer as the various scenarios are never exactly the same.
What is the general consensus on this scenario? Currently employed as a S/E Charter pilot with the real possibility of twin work before I reach 1000hrs. I hold a Grade 3 instructor's rating (never used) which will lapse in the next month.
What are the instructing employment prospects like for me if sometime next year I have 1000-1200hrs of pure charter and > 50hrs ME CMD to qualify for META? Is it possible to knock over the META and renewal in one go or asking too much of myself? Will people let me do twin instructing if I have never instructed despite holding META? Would it be better to target the larger "college" type schools or the smaller ones which may also do some charter?
Many would question why I would want to turn my back on charter when there are so many instructors looking to go the other way. I see instructing as a good career move, a change of scenery, a definite challenge and perhaps enhancing my employment prospects for the airlines down the track. Or am I just tricking myself into thinking this way so I can live in a civilised place again?
Any thoughts appreciated...
And g'day to CJ!!!
Cheers,
TL
What is the general consensus on this scenario? Currently employed as a S/E Charter pilot with the real possibility of twin work before I reach 1000hrs. I hold a Grade 3 instructor's rating (never used) which will lapse in the next month.
What are the instructing employment prospects like for me if sometime next year I have 1000-1200hrs of pure charter and > 50hrs ME CMD to qualify for META? Is it possible to knock over the META and renewal in one go or asking too much of myself? Will people let me do twin instructing if I have never instructed despite holding META? Would it be better to target the larger "college" type schools or the smaller ones which may also do some charter?
Many would question why I would want to turn my back on charter when there are so many instructors looking to go the other way. I see instructing as a good career move, a change of scenery, a definite challenge and perhaps enhancing my employment prospects for the airlines down the track. Or am I just tricking myself into thinking this way so I can live in a civilised place again?
Any thoughts appreciated...
And g'day to CJ!!!
Cheers,
TL
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Have to agree with HA.
I am not trying to dengrate either chosen direction as I have been down both, I will make comment about the way the industry works though!
A thought, an instructor looking for a charter position will arrive with a substantial amount of hours in his log book, by the fact that he is an instructor.
If he doesn't well, he would be classified as a bare CPL?
Even less than average instructors can find work in this crazy system of find your own students.
Some flying schools encourage it!
With those hours in his book you would expect a certain standard. May or may not hvae reached it. He goes for his check ride (as a charter pilot) and doesn't get the job, branded "no good" because he has been instructing.
A pilot who goes the other route, will be found out a lot earlier, say on his initial check ride and be weeded out of the system earlier. Some will sneak through due to being mates of mates, or dady will let you use our Baron etc, but on the whole they are found out, soon after they get their CPL.
At the end of the day there should be less charter pilots of low standard than instructors employed.
I know I will be attacked for this BUT here goes. Wouldn't touch most airline pilots with a barge pole.
I am not trying to dengrate either chosen direction as I have been down both, I will make comment about the way the industry works though!
A thought, an instructor looking for a charter position will arrive with a substantial amount of hours in his log book, by the fact that he is an instructor.
If he doesn't well, he would be classified as a bare CPL?
Even less than average instructors can find work in this crazy system of find your own students.
Some flying schools encourage it!
With those hours in his book you would expect a certain standard. May or may not hvae reached it. He goes for his check ride (as a charter pilot) and doesn't get the job, branded "no good" because he has been instructing.
A pilot who goes the other route, will be found out a lot earlier, say on his initial check ride and be weeded out of the system earlier. Some will sneak through due to being mates of mates, or dady will let you use our Baron etc, but on the whole they are found out, soon after they get their CPL.
At the end of the day there should be less charter pilots of low standard than instructors employed.
I know I will be attacked for this BUT here goes. Wouldn't touch most airline pilots with a barge pole.
Last edited by airbrake42; 4th Sep 2002 at 06:43.
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Airbrake,
You are entitled to your opinion and what you had to say may well be the case, but it raises another interesting point . . . . . Is it too easy to obtain one's Commercial Licence these days? Is it a case of 'back in my day it was near impossible to get a CPL' or has this always been the case.
Personally speaking, I know that my CPL test was a piece of ****, and I am in no way claiming to be anything like the greatest stick and rudder operator going around.
Just a little food for thought.
Coastal.
You are entitled to your opinion and what you had to say may well be the case, but it raises another interesting point . . . . . Is it too easy to obtain one's Commercial Licence these days? Is it a case of 'back in my day it was near impossible to get a CPL' or has this always been the case.
Personally speaking, I know that my CPL test was a piece of ****, and I am in no way claiming to be anything like the greatest stick and rudder operator going around.
Just a little food for thought.
Coastal.
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Coastal,
big generalisation but YES it is too easy to get a CPL.
You pay your $$$ and there will be some one issue you with a licence/rating/endorsement. It has always been like that since I have been flying 1976.
Biggles 72,
don't agree with much of that.
A good instructor in my book is one who can demonstrates accurately whilst pattering the task. He shouldn't just demonstrate once and then give the student an earbashing until he can replicate the demonstration, he may need to demonstrate it over and over again.
I have been an instructor charter pilot and now work for an airline and I can say that my skill level was highest whilst instructing.
My knowledge level was highest when instructing then charter RPT and lowest as an airline pilot. Nothing to think about it is all done for you. One aircraft type, same destinations, two pilots good equipment etc etc
You may not realise it but a charter pilot either with or without an autopilot does ****** all in the way of general flying. He takes off flies straight and level for however long 10mins to 3 hrs and lands. There are some cases where they are required to do different BUT we are speaking in generalisation here.
An instructor may demonstrate several landings in an hour, steep turns stalls what ever is required. Aerobatics/IFR/formation flight/low flyoing??
big generalisation but YES it is too easy to get a CPL.
You pay your $$$ and there will be some one issue you with a licence/rating/endorsement. It has always been like that since I have been flying 1976.
Biggles 72,
don't agree with much of that.
A good instructor in my book is one who can demonstrates accurately whilst pattering the task. He shouldn't just demonstrate once and then give the student an earbashing until he can replicate the demonstration, he may need to demonstrate it over and over again.
I have been an instructor charter pilot and now work for an airline and I can say that my skill level was highest whilst instructing.
My knowledge level was highest when instructing then charter RPT and lowest as an airline pilot. Nothing to think about it is all done for you. One aircraft type, same destinations, two pilots good equipment etc etc
You don’t realise it but as an instructor, even at the most basic level (i.e. teaching straight and level) you are not flying.....you are supervising someone else flying. This is a bit like flying with the autopilot on and scanning the panel in IMC. It is easier and less challenging than flying hands on. Even if you have to demonstrate sequences to a high standard, it isn’t the same as flying yourself.
An instructor may demonstrate several landings in an hour, steep turns stalls what ever is required. Aerobatics/IFR/formation flight/low flyoing??
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Sorry to hijack this thread folks, but I feel I must defend the downtrodden masses, having been there myself.....
I must have lost something in the translation of basic instructional technique here folks....Whatever happened to demonstrate-direct-monitor? How can you teach a student without effective demonstration, ie flying the aeroplane and showing them what to do? I never realised it, but I used to get heaps of stick time as an instructor. 
This whole thread is just a p!ssing competition between people stating that one career background is better than the other. Each has it's good and bad points.
An observation I've made though is that I'm yet to see a single person in my 22 years of flying that has chosen to make a career out of charter flying. I do know a few people that have chosen to stay with instructing, however. Both paths are (generally) merely stepping stones to an airline job, judging by the number of applications we have on staffcv.com.
So why go from one to another if it's not really necessary?
From a recruiting point of view, I've had the privelege of meeting at quite a few individuals in the past couple of years from both backgrounds as well as other airlines. I have to say that it doesn't really matter what your background is. All that really counts is that when the time comes for that airline interview you need to be at your best as far as manipulative skills goes (for the sim), and that you have a thorough and practical working knowledge of Jepps or AIP.
Here endeth the lesson.
You don’t realise it but as an instructor, even at the most basic level (i.e. teaching straight and level) you are not flying.....you are supervising someone else flying. This is a bit like flying with the autopilot on and scanning the panel in IMC.
This whole thread is just a p!ssing competition between people stating that one career background is better than the other. Each has it's good and bad points.
An observation I've made though is that I'm yet to see a single person in my 22 years of flying that has chosen to make a career out of charter flying. I do know a few people that have chosen to stay with instructing, however. Both paths are (generally) merely stepping stones to an airline job, judging by the number of applications we have on staffcv.com.
So why go from one to another if it's not really necessary?
From a recruiting point of view, I've had the privelege of meeting at quite a few individuals in the past couple of years from both backgrounds as well as other airlines. I have to say that it doesn't really matter what your background is. All that really counts is that when the time comes for that airline interview you need to be at your best as far as manipulative skills goes (for the sim), and that you have a thorough and practical working knowledge of Jepps or AIP.
Here endeth the lesson.
Last edited by Hugh Jarse; 4th Sep 2002 at 10:18.
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Hi Biggles
I think you said the same things I did, but more concisely.
This thread keeps losing it's direction.
It started with a genuine request and mostly genuine answers have been given.
It is not a pi**ing competition between Charter pilots and instructors and was not intended to be.
Unfortunately, explaining what one is likely to expect and encounter ( addressing levels of expectations), is not welcome because it does not fit with what some want the world to be like.
As 429CJ, in his own words, "lucky", found, there are exceptions. I'm sure he did not intend that everyone heads off to the remote places because all of what we have said is questionable. Sure there are exceptions, and it's great to hear that some have been "LUCKY", but for most, it's tough.
The guys that got the start in Wyndham and Broome (with low hours as well) were lucky, and they were probably "Johnny on the spot"
I too have hired pilots "on the spot" because they were there the day I needed a pilot.
Some of them didn't last the distance because they didn't measure up after being given a start.
The normal selection screening bar had been lowered to fill a need, some rose to the occasion, some flopped.
"Luck" was still operating for the ones that made it. As 429CJ has experienced, luck will help some, and some make their own luck.
I guess the message is this, know what to expect, know where to go and have some sort of plan. Be prepared to do other jobs to survive while waiting, but try to pick the right place to wait.
Places like Kununnurra and Darwin can be very expensive to live with regard to rent , and in the remote places, food and beer and everything can cost a third more than they do in civilisation.
It's better to be pleased to find that it's not always as tough as some of us have been telling you, rather than to ignore all the advice and get very depressed when you realise it's mostly true.
Don't forget you need a Dangerous Goods Certificate to fly passengers or freight in Commercial Operations
Only half the applicants turning up out bush seem to know this, so maybe it should be incorporated in the CPL syllabus.
Keep smiling, grit your teeth, plan your future and mainly stick to your plan., don't give up, you WILL get there, not always on your own timetable.
I think you said the same things I did, but more concisely.
This thread keeps losing it's direction.
It started with a genuine request and mostly genuine answers have been given.
It is not a pi**ing competition between Charter pilots and instructors and was not intended to be.
Unfortunately, explaining what one is likely to expect and encounter ( addressing levels of expectations), is not welcome because it does not fit with what some want the world to be like.
As 429CJ, in his own words, "lucky", found, there are exceptions. I'm sure he did not intend that everyone heads off to the remote places because all of what we have said is questionable. Sure there are exceptions, and it's great to hear that some have been "LUCKY", but for most, it's tough.
The guys that got the start in Wyndham and Broome (with low hours as well) were lucky, and they were probably "Johnny on the spot"
I too have hired pilots "on the spot" because they were there the day I needed a pilot.
Some of them didn't last the distance because they didn't measure up after being given a start.
The normal selection screening bar had been lowered to fill a need, some rose to the occasion, some flopped.
"Luck" was still operating for the ones that made it. As 429CJ has experienced, luck will help some, and some make their own luck.
I guess the message is this, know what to expect, know where to go and have some sort of plan. Be prepared to do other jobs to survive while waiting, but try to pick the right place to wait.
Places like Kununnurra and Darwin can be very expensive to live with regard to rent , and in the remote places, food and beer and everything can cost a third more than they do in civilisation.
It's better to be pleased to find that it's not always as tough as some of us have been telling you, rather than to ignore all the advice and get very depressed when you realise it's mostly true.
Don't forget you need a Dangerous Goods Certificate to fly passengers or freight in Commercial Operations
Only half the applicants turning up out bush seem to know this, so maybe it should be incorporated in the CPL syllabus.
Keep smiling, grit your teeth, plan your future and mainly stick to your plan., don't give up, you WILL get there, not always on your own timetable.
Last edited by Mainframe; 6th Sep 2002 at 03:13.
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NEVER LET A RATING LAPSE, YOU PAID GOOD DOLLARS FOR IT KEEP IT CURRENT ONE DAY IT JUST MIGHT MAKE YOU MORE DOLLARS.
429... What makes you say your not special...
429... What makes you say your not special...
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Further to mainframes post on the kimberleys, from what I have seen it is posible to go in as a 200hr pilot and do charter. The opperators certainly do prefer if possible to keep the newbies on the scenics for a while but really its just supply and demand. If they have enough more experienced guys then they might do more charters but if not they do what they have to do to get the job done.
Also the bungles scenics do often require an away landing at the strip in the bungles and also at Argyle (ok so its almost 2km long, sealed with vasis and a vor/dme) but also at Elquestro & Emma Gorge. At least one of the opperators checks there pilots into those strips before letting them go in by them selves but getting a heavy 207 outa either of those strips on a hot still day is enough to get the adrenalin pumping the palms sweaty and the stomach churning.
Hour requirements are one thing but operators in my experience waver them to suit themselves. (As is there right of course)
Also the bungles scenics do often require an away landing at the strip in the bungles and also at Argyle (ok so its almost 2km long, sealed with vasis and a vor/dme) but also at Elquestro & Emma Gorge. At least one of the opperators checks there pilots into those strips before letting them go in by them selves but getting a heavy 207 outa either of those strips on a hot still day is enough to get the adrenalin pumping the palms sweaty and the stomach churning.
Hour requirements are one thing but operators in my experience waver them to suit themselves. (As is there right of course)
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Standards are not variable
I too have hired pilots "on the spot" because they were there the day I needed a pilot. Some of them didn't last the distance because they didn't measure up after being given a start.
The normal selection screening bar had been lowered to fill a need, some rose to the occasion, some flopped.
The normal selection screening bar had been lowered to fill a need, some rose to the occasion, some flopped.
There have been times when we have been short of suitable applicants. However, we have never varied the standard to suit the occasion. To do so will only cost you money in the long run.
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Now you have all gone and made me blush.........
Mainframe, roger that, read you fives, but I stay well out of the instructor/charter pilot slanging match. I think we are beating the same drum, but I honestly feel that some operators do not hire the logbook, but the right shaped peg for the hole (if you know where I'm coming from). That's what I was trying to get at, first and foremost they want someone who is gonna fit in and pull their weight within the organisation, and perhaps go that extra mile. In the two instances I have mentioned previous to this post, this personality trait is evident in both persons.
Luck will always be a factor in everyday life, we can only play the cards we are dealt. Perseverence towards attaining the ultimate goal is what will show through time after time. You are quite right mainframe, it is tough for everyone, no exceptions. Leaving family, fiance's, friends, comfort zone, most worldly possessions behind for whatever the world may bring is not an easy situation to live through. A person who I am yet to meet but have spoken to by phone and email many, many times has yet to "crack it". He, and his lady, have gone back home for a short while to get some sanity and regroup in order to mount another assult on it in the very near future. Last time I spoke with him he had just gotten home, the spirit had taken a beating but the fight was still in his voice and the fire within to succeed was still well alight. He'll come back, wiser and he'll nail it bigtime! He's also gonna get a call in the next coupla days just to say "g'day".
G'day to you too T_L, I hope you've been well also. Chrissie drinkies in SY? We should start looking where everyone's gonna be around then. Whadderya reckon?
I muthta gone to a thpecial thkool HA!
Regards,
4/J
Mainframe, roger that, read you fives, but I stay well out of the instructor/charter pilot slanging match. I think we are beating the same drum, but I honestly feel that some operators do not hire the logbook, but the right shaped peg for the hole (if you know where I'm coming from). That's what I was trying to get at, first and foremost they want someone who is gonna fit in and pull their weight within the organisation, and perhaps go that extra mile. In the two instances I have mentioned previous to this post, this personality trait is evident in both persons.
Luck will always be a factor in everyday life, we can only play the cards we are dealt. Perseverence towards attaining the ultimate goal is what will show through time after time. You are quite right mainframe, it is tough for everyone, no exceptions. Leaving family, fiance's, friends, comfort zone, most worldly possessions behind for whatever the world may bring is not an easy situation to live through. A person who I am yet to meet but have spoken to by phone and email many, many times has yet to "crack it". He, and his lady, have gone back home for a short while to get some sanity and regroup in order to mount another assult on it in the very near future. Last time I spoke with him he had just gotten home, the spirit had taken a beating but the fight was still in his voice and the fire within to succeed was still well alight. He'll come back, wiser and he'll nail it bigtime! He's also gonna get a call in the next coupla days just to say "g'day".
G'day to you too T_L, I hope you've been well also. Chrissie drinkies in SY? We should start looking where everyone's gonna be around then. Whadderya reckon?
I muthta gone to a thpecial thkool HA!
Regards,
4/J
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Instructors Disadvantaged
I don't believe they are disadvantaged. Of the last 7 of our students to get a job with QF, 5 had instructing backgrounds (most over 2000 hours instructing) and only 2 without the Instructor rating. Funnily enough, one had an uncle who worked for QF and the other a father very high up in AN!
