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For instructors who teach CRM, TEM and MCC courses for cadets

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For instructors who teach CRM, TEM and MCC courses for cadets

Old 12th Jun 2020, 15:59
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For instructors who teach CRM, TEM and MCC courses for cadets

https://www.caapakistan.com.pk/Uploa...ts/SIB-337.pdf

A320 circling approach in bad weather with fatal consequences. The CVR read-out published in the report says it all in terms of ineffective TEM, CRM and MCC. Flying school instructors note and pass it on to airline cadets under training.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 05:07
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Wow, thatís very well worth reading. That timeline on the last page of the alerts sounding too... Should be required reading as part of an MCC course, and also a check/training captain upgrade program.
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Old 13th Jun 2020, 06:52
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Flying school instructors note and pass it on to airline cadets under training
Why just airline cadets under training?

There are learnings out of this accident for all pilots. Those aiming to work on a multi-crew flight deck, as well as those already doing so.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 02:01
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Circling approaches in modern day jet aircraft should have been binned years ago.

Certainly in formation for all
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 03:10
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Originally Posted by Dark Knight View Post
Circling approaches in modern day jet aircraft should have been binned years ago.
I disagree.
theres nothing inherently dangerous with a circling approach. Like anything, it’s the inability of the crew that makes any manoeuvre dangerous. Why the inability? Lack of training/currency/practice etc.

A jet crew crashed on a visual approach (777 SFO). Should we ban visual approaches in modern day jets too?



this in my opinion is the real cause for that Pakistani crash linked in the first post:
Aircrew Captain not only clearly violated the prescribed procedures for circling approach but also did not at all adhere to FCOM procedures of displaying reaction / response to timely and continuous terrain and pull up warnings (21 times in 70 seconds) – despite these very loud, continuous and executive commands, the Captain failed to register the urgency of the situation and did not respond in kind (break off / pull off).
those actions would have resulted in a crash, regardless of the type of approach.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 05:58
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And then there was the Chuuk Lagon accident, that report is interesting reading.

A large majority of these unnecessary accidents are attributed to systemic deficiencies directly relating to poor flight standards. Part of the real threat that sometimes gets ignored, is pilots being reluctant to go around in fear that they will botch up the missed approach.

Plenty of ATSB reports relating to botched up missed approaches.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 07:01
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I disagree.
Like anything, it’s the inability of the crew that makes any manoeuvre dangerous. Why the inability? Lack of training/currency/practice etc.


Agree. The following comment is one person's personal opinion for what it is worth. There should be nothing inherently dangerous with a circling approach providing the pilot uses common sense and sticks to the rules.
With the advent of GPS straight-in instrument approaches on so many runways, it was only a matter of time before circling approaches were not needed anymore. The piloting skill required for a marginal weather circling approaches or at night should not have to be something extraordinary, although currency is important as with most other flying manoeuvres.

Simulator training, where accent on autopilot flown instrument approaches (including GPS approaches) seems to takes precedence over practice at visual circuits (which is what a circling approach is anyway) means less time available to practice circling approaches. Most pilots are aware that in some full flight simulators, there are limitations with visual displays where sight of the runway environment is lost as soon as the runway threshold disappears while the aircraft flies abeam while on the downwind leg.

This means the pilot is forced to go heads down on instruments and follow an artificial map and even start timing depending on the height of the MDA. In real life, if forced to abandon visual flying on a circling approach it is time to immediately go-around. In the simulator, since we often lose sight of the runway late downwind because of visual limitations, we are sometimes are forced cheat a little and stay on the clocks until the runway in sight on final. We take a big deep breath and the check captain ticks the box.

It goes without saying that it is good airmanship to stay at or above the circling MDA until on final with the runway, in view. This is because obstacle clearance is not guaranteed once you descend below the circling MDA anywhere in the circuit except in the splay on final and on the visual approach slope via the PAPI . Circling approaches are not hazardous if the pilot sticks to the common sense rules. That includes keeping above or at the published MDA at all times on downwind, base and initial final. It is in some older simulators that the limitations of simulator design mean the pilot has no choice but to stay on instruments and maintain circling MDA until the runway appears in front of you when PAPI guidance is available. In real life, if forward vision is lost then a go-around is required.

In the simulator, the limitations of the visual display invariably means the pilot is flying blind until the runway hopefully appears into view on final. It becomes more of a box ticking exercise.than a replica of what the pilot should see outside in real life.
Thus it is no wonder that some pilots consider a circling approach a dangerous manoeuvre when the vast majority of circling approaches he has conducted in jet transport aircraft were only in the simulator with its inherent visual limitations.

Last edited by Judd; 14th Jun 2020 at 07:31.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 13:13
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A very well written report by the Pakistan SIB

In normal operations, all crew know they are junior to the Captain, so it is accepted if they are sometimes corrected or overruled by him/her during a flight, (as long as the Captain is correct). CRM problems can arise when this process has to go the other way and the Captain has to be corrected or overruled.

This F/O was vocal when getting too close to the terrain, but something held him back from actually taking control. The Captain was aggressive and demeaning to the F/O earlier in the flight which might have prevented the F/O actually taking control later on. It is very easy to say at a CRM course: Question, Advise, Take control, but not necessarily easy to do it in the cockpit with Captain grumpy or Captain aggressive.

The F/Os use of 'Sir' when addressing his Captain indicates to me that the cockpit gradient was much too steep in the first place, so they started off from a position of poor CRM.

A circling approach is not something most of us do very often, so it would make sense to thoroughly brief it before attempting one outside the SIM.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 15:55
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The Captain was aggressive and demeaning to the F/O earlier in the flight which might have prevented the F/O actually taking control later on.
Exactly how does the unhappy F/O take control from the aggressive captain? The manuals don't tell you apart from weak motherhood statements. Judging by the cockpit gradient described in the report, the captain is not going to meekly allow the F/O to take control. There would doubtless be a struggle for control unless the F/O was able to belt the captain over the head as a last resort.

In fact this nearly did happen years ago in a South Pacific airline when the F/O (a former military pilot gutsy character) threatened the equally belligerent captain with the cockpit crash axe if he (the captain) proceeded with his plan of descending IMC below a terrain height restriction. The F/O had earlier warned the captain several times about the height restriction only to be rudely rebuffed. The crash axe proved a great equaliser. It also proved the veracity of the expression that actions speak louder than words.
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Old 14th Jun 2020, 19:14
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Exactly.

If taking control from an arrogant Captain was trained and practised, there would be a double benefit of junior staff practising warning then taking control, and for Captains to experience having control taken from them.
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 00:51
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That’s one thing the bus does well allows for a takeover without required force. Press that little red button on the control stick, hold it for a wee while and priority is yours rendering the other one useless...

Not an easy decision to make, especially with the cockpit gradient and culture as you say.

Very valid thread and one that is going to be more valid as many return to the flight deck, possibly a little rusty............
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 02:10
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Judd said "...in some full flight simulators, there are limitations with visual displays where sight of the runway environment is lost as soon as the runway threshold disappears while the aircraft flies abeam while on the downwind leg. This means the pilot is forced to go heads down on instruments and follow an artificial map and even start timing depending on the height of the MDA. In real life, if forced to abandon visual flying on a circling approach it is time to immediately go-around. In the simulator, since we often lose sight of the runway late downwind because of visual limitations, we are sometimes are forced cheat a little and stay on the clocks until the runway in sight on final. We take a big deep breath and the check captain ticks the box..."

Very thoughful and a classic example of "negative training" - on the day pilots will invariably do the same as practiced.

Flysafe
PJ88
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Old 15th Jun 2020, 23:35
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I'll say the same thing I have been saying for the last 20 years. I can see no reason why the circling approach still exists in the 21st century. It is a manoeuvre that is not preferred and for that reason less likely to be proficient along with the rejected takeoff at V1. Anything not routinely performed will be poorly executed. It doesn't make any sense to do anything other than a straight in continuous descent and landing, or and to a lesser degree a visual circuit and landing. The probability of both flight crew members being proficient for a specific circling approach is extremely remote.
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Old 16th Jun 2020, 05:25
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I can see no reason why the circling approach still exists in the 21st century.

Apart from the fact that the circling MDA maybe lower than a normal circuit, the circling approach is no different to an ordinary circuit. There are airline pilots whose career is spent on straight-in radar vectored instrument approaches. Some blame the training environment that shies away from allowing practice circuits and landings in the simulator.

The majority of destinations in Australia are served with GPS. Joining final under GPS guidance may save money, but surely competency at flying a circuit should not be beyond a PPL or a type rated airline pilot. Flown manually, practicing circuits and landings in a simulator is an ideal cost-effective to stay current. It dispels the fear that some airline pilots have of joining downwind for a circuit. Believe me these pilots do exist. Flying a circuit reinforces the basic skills every pilot should have of climbing, turning, straight and level and descending, power changes, trim changes, airmanship look-out, landings and even go-arounds where applicable. All in a relatively short time.

Unfortunately, this aversion by trainers against practice circuits in the simulator may stem from the accent on instrument flying on jet transports. Especially on type rating courses where handling skills on a new type rather than automation are vital for pilot confidence in the early stages of training, practice circuits and landings - particularly in crosswinds - are so important. Once you can fly a decent circuit, then a circling approach is a walk-over.

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Old 16th Jun 2020, 07:38
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Sheppey. Your opening statement is the very reason we shouldn't be doing them. Companies want minimal hand flying and straight in approaches.
Don't be performing manoeuvres in the real world that are rarely, if ever done. It's just asking for trouble.
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Old 22nd Jun 2020, 08:34
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Until such time as circling approaches no longer exist for the routes flown by the airline, then the manoeuvre needs to be practiced.
My vote is with sheppey as the crews needs to feel confident to fly a visual circuit. They need to do it for their base training where aircraft flying is a requirement.
Yes a potentially greater threat than a normal day, potential errors will be mitigated by getting it right in the simulator in the first place (best you can) notwithstanding the limitations of the visual systems.
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