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The Danger of Hand Swinging the prop in modern aircraft

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The Danger of Hand Swinging the prop in modern aircraft

Old 12th Nov 2019, 01:30
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sunfish View Post


A modern solution to the flat battery problem is a lithium battery jumper pack. Mine can start a cold 6 cylinder Toyota diesel. They weigh nothing. About $300 for a good one. Also can power your Ipad.
Apart from personal electronic devices and installed as part of the aircraft lithium batteries are banned on passenger carrying aircraft. Unless things have changed.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 01:53
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Peter Fanelli View Post
Apart from personal electronic devices and installed as part of the aircraft lithium batteries are banned on passenger carrying aircraft. Unless things have changed.
The jump starting thing is just a big power bank. As much a personal electronic device as a phone.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 03:02
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Peter Fanelli View Post
Apart from personal electronic devices and installed as part of the aircraft lithium batteries are banned on passenger carrying aircraft. Unless things have changed.
Things have changed,
https://www.casa.gov.au/standard-pag...fely-batteries
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 03:51
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Ignorance is bliss. I once hand started the rear engine of a Cessna 336, it had an unexpected starter motor problem. I was stranded at Smithton in Tasmania late one Friday evening with no one else around and didn't really expect it to work out, but it was too easy. Fortunately I had chocked it well...enough. The crazy things you do when you are young.

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Old 12th Nov 2019, 05:16
  #25 (permalink)  
 
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Even a small jump pack is bigger than 200whr
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 06:31
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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That CASA advice is for passengers in rpt and charter. Experimental aircraft have been using lithium batteries for years and some are specifically approved by engine manufacturers (eg: rotax/earthx). I fail to see how carrying a battery as a tool would be intended to be covered by CASA advice - any more than for carrying a spare lead acid battery.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 09:39
  #27 (permalink)  
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
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I have made similar posts on similar threads in the past and wanted to copy and paste my earlier post but cannot find it, so.....

Way back in early 1990 when I arrived in PNG for the first time, after doing my endorsement on the 'Bongo Van,' the CP lined both of us newbies up and said something like this;

'Right you blokes, I'm going to show you something that you one day may find useful! Consider the following scenario; It's Friday, 1700 hrs local and you are the other side of the Owen Stanleys at some Godforsaken bush strip, and all you want to do is get back to Moresby for the Friday Night BBQ and associated pissup at the Aero Club. You climb into the Islander and try to start one engine only to find that the starter motor has gone U/S! So this is what you do to get out of the situation.'

He then proceeded to show us (Scott L and myself) exactly how to hand start a 260HP Lycoming.
Climb into the a/c and lock the brakes on. Also chock wheels if possible.
Exit a/c and set Prop at compression. Re enter a/c.
Prime engine as normal.
Ensure throttle is fully closed, Master switch and both mags ON.
Exit a/c.
Carefully swing prop, ensuring that all body weight is on front foot as you swing, thereby stepping back as you swing downwards.

After about three attempts the engine started and ran quite nicely at idle. I filed the demonstration away in the memory banks for future reference.

Would you believe it but about 18 months later on my second hitch there, that exact scenario occurred!! It was late on a Friday afternoon, I was on the other side of the Owen Stanleys with just enough time to get back to Moresby and the starter motor in the LH engine went bagarap!

I had no intentions of missing the BBQ/pissup at the Club Dero and had absolutely no desire to stay in the local Village either, so I performed the abovementioned procedure. It was extremely annoying, especially not having any success after swinging the prop for about 7 or 8 times. By that time what seemed to be the entire Village population was lined up watching me, laughing and (seemingly to me) jeering at the crazy 'long long Balusman.'

This simply made me more determined, and to my enormous relief, somewhere around the 25th attempt at swinging I heard a 'click' followed by a 'whizzing' noise and the engine fired up, idling happily away!

I scrambled into the a/c through one of the rear doors, climbed into the L/H seat and had the other engine fired up quicktaim!
And I was in the air headed back to Moresby somewhat in haste.

Oh and as for all the Villagers; If I remember correctly, they all went very silent when the engine finally fired up and there were many many gaping mouths when I taxied out!
Made my day it did!

Since that time I have handstarted the engine in a Pawnee a few times, using the same technique ie both mags and master on with a fully closed throttle and it has worked ok.

However, I really would be quite happy if I never ever had to do that sort of thing again!

Last edited by Pinky the pilot; 12th Nov 2019 at 09:54.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 09:55
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I’d prefer never have to swing start an engine (again) too.

But (as you and many others have learnt, pinky) it’s a very big and remote world out there.

Ironically, I learnt how to swing start an engine from a very informative video produced by CASA on the subject - from back in the day when CASA produced useful educational material.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 12:33
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ixixly View Post
I don't know why Hand Swinging is peoples first thought when it comes to a dead battery on an Aircraft instead of finding someone with a vehicle and a set of jumper cables?
Because a lot of aircraft are now 24 volt and the vehicles are 12, not enough voltage to work.
I have seen what happens when you plug 24 volts into a 12 volt aircraft. Blew the top off the battery box with enough force to wrap it around a 1" tall structural member and dent the skin outward for about 50% of the outline of lid.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 17:35
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I was stuck on several occasions long, long ago but fortunately was a pupil of the Tiger Moth Handswing Academy. First lesson was no need to swing too hard, just enough to take the blade through the impulse click, if it didn't click the coupling needed unstuck or otherwise remedied. Gipsy Major and Cirrus in Austers etc were easy enough but opposite rotation Lycoming and Continental were not, until I was advised to stand BEHIND the prop. This enables swinging with the right hand while the left steadies you against the cowling. Prime as usual, pull through four blades, then 'contact' and off she goes.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 20:29
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A couple of matters have been mentioned that again point up the importance of systems knowledge. Some aircraft have impulse couplings fitted to both magnetos. Some have an impulse coupling fitted to just one. Some have no impulse couplings and have retard breakers instead. Some have starter ‘vibrators’. Some have electronic ignition systems. Some need to be primed by an electric pump. Some have 12volt batteries, some 24.

Without knowing these things and their implications, efforts to swing or jump start an aircraft engine may at best just result in bigger biceps and, at worst, death. Major engine or airframe damage is somewhere in between.

The place to learn these things is in the comfort of your lounge chair with a cup of coffee before the big trip, not as the sun is setting over you and your aircraft in the middle of nowhere. It may be that you resolve never to try to swing or jump start the aircraft, either because it will be futile or entail risks you are not prepared to take. But make that decision on an informed basis while not under pressure. And have a ‘Plan B’ for the (fortunately unlikely) event of being stuck in the middle of nowhere.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 00:17
  #32 (permalink)  
 
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Hand starting aeroplanes is as safe as you make it
There was even an approved procedure by some operators for Armstronging radials on some aircraft, eg DC-3. Use this photo for folk to identify safety lapses.


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Old 13th Nov 2019, 00:47
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by megan View Post
There was even an approved procedure by some operators for Armstronging radials on some aircraft, eg DC-3. Use this photo for folk to identify safety lapses.


Technique seems fine, but I would suggest some form of footwear.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 04:12
  #34 (permalink)  
 
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She should be behind the propeller.
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 05:18
  #35 (permalink)  
 
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Interesting visual puzzle. If you stare at this picture long enough, eventually you will notice what appears to be an aircraft in it.

Originally Posted by megan View Post
There was even an approved procedure by some operators for Armstronging radials on some aircraft, eg DC-3. Use this photo for folk to identify safety lapses.


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Old 13th Nov 2019, 06:08
  #36 (permalink)  
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
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nteresting visual puzzle. If you stare at this picture long enough, eventually you will notice what appears to be an aircraft in it.
Good Heavens! So there is!!!
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 08:07
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Pinky,
Chief Pilot bilong yupla? Muli! when u workim brum brum? By any chance???? 👍👍👍👍👍👍

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Old 13th Nov 2019, 10:32
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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Oh please God don't strike me blind now! -)
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 10:46
  #39 (permalink)  
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: And once again, the fun and good times having come to an end for yet another year, back in the cold, cruel real world and continuing the seemingly never ending search for that bad bottle of Red
Age: 65
Posts: 2,562
Chief Pilot bilong yupla? Muli! when u workim brum brum?
Duck Pilot; The CP who did my endorsement training on the brum brums was Alan Yarnold, the then (and last, before Dz went bagarap) CP of Douglas Airways.

When the handswinging episode related above occurred, I was working for Simbu Aviation. Owner and CP was the now late Richard Rowe. And God rest his Soul!
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Old 13th Nov 2019, 11:05
  #40 (permalink)  
 
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I’ve swung a few... Remember being taught how by a LAME! At the time never thought it would be useful.

Into the memory banks -

Bonanza, never flown it but swung it for a bloke, seem to remember something else needed to be done.

C182, easy.

PA31-350, now logic tells me I didn’t but memory tells me I did the right one a few times.

C210/205.

Somewhere in the memory banks I recall watching the rope method on a big radial.

Or have I been drinking the coolaide???????

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