Qantas Group Training Academy at Wellcamp
Not just "nice" but as a taxpayer whose money is bring used to fund their loan I would say it is essential.
Do they exist to flood the market with pilots? No, they exist to divert an eye watering amount of taxpayers' dollars into a few pockets and to build a business model that makes it very difficult for other training providers to compete with.
Do they exist to flood the market with pilots? No, they exist to divert an eye watering amount of taxpayers' dollars into a few pockets and to build a business model that makes it very difficult for other training providers to compete with.
It's a free market, if other training providers are having difficulty competing with the Academy they need to change the way they operate and the product they produce. It's not incumbent on an airline to ensure the viability of 'regular' flying schools, if the nature of the market has changed then those other training providers will either adapt or perish.
Free market? So a flying school that officially has no guarantee of getting you a job at Qantas has Qantas and Pilot Academy in it's name?
How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?
What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?
Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.
Anyone who studied economics knows that to keep labour costs down you need more workers than jobs. QGPA is aiming to pump out graduates to make this a reality.
You can dress it up any way you want but please stop making out that QGPA is doing a public service.
How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?
What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?
Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.
Anyone who studied economics knows that to keep labour costs down you need more workers than jobs. QGPA is aiming to pump out graduates to make this a reality.
You can dress it up any way you want but please stop making out that QGPA is doing a public service.
Have noticed at Wellcamp and also Wagga, self-appointed air traffic controllers (senior instructors?) hopping on the radio and ‘directing’ aircraft to go here and there and do this and that.
Probably well-intentioned to alleviate congestion etc but suggest you don’t. Often it simply adds to the confusion and may also place you in a precarious place legally should an incident occur
Probably well-intentioned to alleviate congestion etc but suggest you don’t. Often it simply adds to the confusion and may also place you in a precarious place legally should an incident occur
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Free market? So a flying school that officially has no guarantee of getting you a job at Qantas has Qantas and Pilot Academy in it's name?
How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?
What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?
Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.
How does any flying school in Australia have a chance at competing against a flying school with Qantas in it's name?
What other flight school has unlimited leverage of a national brand?
Even though they officially "don't have a pathway to any Qantas Group Airline" they certainly imply unofficially that you will be ahead of everyone else applying if you train here.
The partnership with QF will assist FTA in finding applicants for this academy, but they are still limiting the numbers taken in after a selection process involving theory, aptitude testing and interview. But the airline can employ whoever they want. If they want 100% of their recruits to come from the Academy system then that's what they'll do. Will other flying schools suffer? Probably, or turn to foreign trainees. But like I said there's no responsibility on the part of the airline to prop up every flight school across the nation. In fact I can foresee a future where the airline picks some other flying schools to provide training under the Academy system to the QF syllabus, the same as FTA in Wellcamp. One would imagine if it did happen it would be quite a sought after contract for such a school.
Last edited by dr dre; 20th Apr 2024 at 07:27.
The 1960s scheme called the Cadet Pilot scheme did. The 1990s scheme didn’t. Most got in but there were a couple who didn’t.
It's a free market, if other training providers are having difficulty competing with the Academy they need to change the way they operate and the product they produce. It's not incumbent on an airline to ensure the viability of 'regular' flying schools, if the nature of the market has changed then those other training providers will either adapt or perish.
You missed the point. Getting free leverage of the Qantas name makes it not a level playing field.
Your solution is adapt or die? I don't know of one flying school other than QGPA that will turn away a person who has the ability to pay. How are they getting so many applicants? Maybe it's the vague hints Qantas will hire you at the end? What other school can make that claim and have the Qantas name on the door.
Your views are incredibly biased towards Qantas.
The ultimate losers will the people who dropped 130k to find out that cadet placement at Qantas companies will be more like 20% and not whatever number marketing came up with.
Make that $175,000 able to be borrowed on a HELP loan for 2024. Not including the 20% "admin" fees, which takes it to over $210,000, indexation this year will be around 4.5% ..so let's make that $220,000 after the first indexation on the full amount. You'd need a starter salary of $118,000 just to pay the first year's indexation deduction from your pay without making a dent on the loan.
Luckily not all flying schools and not all students want to be part of the airlines.
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Yep.
Make that $175,000 able to be borrowed on a HELP loan for 2024. Not including the 20% "admin" fees, which takes it to over $210,000, indexation this year will be around 4.5% ..so let's make that $220,000 after the first indexation on the full amount. You'd need a starter salary of $118,000 just to pay the first year's indexation deduction from your pay without making a dent on the loan.
Make that $175,000 able to be borrowed on a HELP loan for 2024. Not including the 20% "admin" fees, which takes it to over $210,000, indexation this year will be around 4.5% ..so let's make that $220,000 after the first indexation on the full amount. You'd need a starter salary of $118,000 just to pay the first year's indexation deduction from your pay without making a dent on the loan.
Academy
CPL - $85k
IR - $33k
ATPL/MCC - $20k
”Normal”
CPL $92k
IR $40k
”Normal”
CPL $103k
IR $32k
ATPL Theory - $7k
MCC - $7k
So the costs of training via the Academy are comparable and not wildly dissimilar to a “normal” GA flying school. Train at the “normal” school and you’ll still be subject to the same admin fee and indexing.
So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.
Luckily not all flying schools and not all students want to be part of the airlines.
Of course a student who wants to have a career solely in GA should not train at this Academy, I would’ve thought that was pretty obvious?
Well all my former studes who are now with Qantas, Virgin, Emirates, Network, Jetstar and others all went via GA and as a result were able to go in with ATPL exams AND hours already done and get a command sooner than someone who had gone into the RHS straight out of flying school.
One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.
So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.
My grads enter the workforce with a training investment of around $80,000 which they can get a return on as pay straight away.
One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.
So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.
My grads enter the workforce with a training investment of around $80,000 which they can get a return on as pay straight away.
Well all my former studes who are now with Qantas, Virgin, Emirates, Network, Jetstar and others all went via GA and as a result were able to go in with ATPL exams AND hours already done and get a command sooner than someone who had gone into the RHS straight out of flying school.
Were you still under the impression a pilot needs 500 multi IFR PIC before gaining command in an airline?
One just started with an airline and had got 800 in command in just under two years doing single engine single pilot VFR work, charter, fire spotting and survey.
So it's not just getting the airline job, but how long it will take getting a command and a decent return on your investment that matters.
Not sure how the Aussie system works but under one system I worked cadets (self sponsored) went straight into the RHS of the A320.
3-5 years later upgrading to command, their only ‘command’ time PICUS.
How does it work in the Aussie airlines?
Looking back at my career would I have jumped straight into an airline if I could? Yep, however looking back at the extreme fun I had in GA I actually feel sorry for guys that go straight into the RHS. Yeah it’s a career but it ain’t flying (ok it is flying but ya know what I mean).
If it is over 65% going into group airlines then that’s a solid number. However wouldn’t it be great to see sponsored cadetships, the true cadetship.
3-5 years later upgrading to command, their only ‘command’ time PICUS.
How does it work in the Aussie airlines?
Looking back at my career would I have jumped straight into an airline if I could? Yep, however looking back at the extreme fun I had in GA I actually feel sorry for guys that go straight into the RHS. Yeah it’s a career but it ain’t flying (ok it is flying but ya know what I mean).
If it is over 65% going into group airlines then that’s a solid number. However wouldn’t it be great to see sponsored cadetships, the true cadetship.
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Anecdotal 60% placement rate and assistance for the others? Where did that number come from or is it just from the rumour mill at QGPA?
Until it's in writing it didn't happen.
Until it's in writing it didn't happen.
So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.So if you shopped around a student might be able to save 10-15% on a CPL, IR and ATPL vs the Academy but with a greater than not chance of airline employment straight away vs almost zero via a “normal” school I think it’s a no brainer decision for any youngster who desires to ultimately be an airline pilot to apply to the Academy.
As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
Last edited by Climb150; 21st Apr 2024 at 19:41.
Yes I would like to save 15% on 140k please. It's only 21k (such a small amount !!!) and if I don't go to the academy I can live at home and save more money.
As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
As you said Dre nothing is guaranteed so going to QGPA in the hope of going straight to a Qantas Group job is naive at best.
Well, I just flew with a couple of Qantas Academy Graduates last month who were straight to the right hand seat of an A320 so it is not so naive.
No, Command is predicated on seniority. ATPL minimums are 1500 total = 2 years of operational flying and no part of the group is upgrading F/Os before the two year mark anyway. A cadet/academy grad gets into the airline quicker and gets that all important seniority number climbing quicker.
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This isn't really correct. Yes, an ATPL is 1500 hours, but I don't know of any QF Group carrier with command requirements that low. In my experience, I had seen closer to 3000 hours - which meant the cadets always got trumped for commands by their junior GA counterparts.
But even if it wasn’t then two people who graduated from a CPL course at the same time, one from an academy and one from a ‘normal’ school, would both still reach airline captaincy (and this would just be for QLink as the first available upgrade) at the same time, except the path for the academy grad is more secure.
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
Really, because cadets have been employed in Australia since the early 60s. At a guess I’d say graduates of accelerated cadet/traineeship program would compromise 30-35% of all active Australian airline pilots and a fairly decent chunk of commands on heavies as well. Unless they’ve managed to fool all
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.
the C&T staff around the country then I’d say they’re very much ‘getting the job done’.