SCPL to ATPL advice wanted
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SCPL to ATPL advice wanted
I've been overseas for decades and while away,
without knowing about the intro of part 61.
In Australia I "had" an SCPL a multi engine single pilot instrument rating and a Grade 2 instructor.
I believed, it was automatically converted to an ATPL?
CASA tell me I have to write the AOSA exam and the HF exam and do a "flight test"
without specifying what sort of flight test.
I have a type rating for a pressurized turbine aircraft in my foreign ATPL
with foreign Instrument and multi training approvals.
PM's or posts appreciated.
========================
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without knowing about the intro of part 61.
In Australia I "had" an SCPL a multi engine single pilot instrument rating and a Grade 2 instructor.
I believed, it was automatically converted to an ATPL?
CASA tell me I have to write the AOSA exam and the HF exam and do a "flight test"
without specifying what sort of flight test.
I have a type rating for a pressurized turbine aircraft in my foreign ATPL
with foreign Instrument and multi training approvals.
PM's or posts appreciated.
========================
You can’t use the Private Messaging system, add url links or images until you have an established posting history.
1/. I suspect CASA is the best source of information on this one - sorry.
2/. The fact that you have an overseas ATPL and previous complex turbine experience will make you stand out in the pilot market - just make sure you get all the other pre-requisites that CASA have stipulated;
3/. If you need an ATPL for the job, they would surely include the test for that into your type rating training (all the more important to get the pre-reqs nailed)
4/. Remember that most youngish Australian pilots are in the same boat, with the last CAR5 ATPL handed out some years ago. They all have to get the hours and pass the exams, and get a job as an FO, before getting command upgrade and doing the ATPL test as a part of that process.
The days of the "GA ATPL" pilot are numbered.
2/. The fact that you have an overseas ATPL and previous complex turbine experience will make you stand out in the pilot market - just make sure you get all the other pre-requisites that CASA have stipulated;
3/. If you need an ATPL for the job, they would surely include the test for that into your type rating training (all the more important to get the pre-reqs nailed)
4/. Remember that most youngish Australian pilots are in the same boat, with the last CAR5 ATPL handed out some years ago. They all have to get the hours and pass the exams, and get a job as an FO, before getting command upgrade and doing the ATPL test as a part of that process.
The days of the "GA ATPL" pilot are numbered.
Based on what I know of the collective CASA mentality, a decades-old SCPL that has not existed in their living memory won't be recognised. The deadline to convert old CAR 5 licences has now passed, so even if you had an old Aussie ATPL you are SOL.
It would be easier to simply convert a current ICAO ATPL. There are a few hoops to jump through, but nothing that money and study can't solve. The ATPL flight test counts as an IPC, takes about 2.5 hours and can be done in a simulator.
It would be easier to simply convert a current ICAO ATPL. There are a few hoops to jump through, but nothing that money and study can't solve. The ATPL flight test counts as an IPC, takes about 2.5 hours and can be done in a simulator.
Are you sure, you have interpreted what CASA has said correctly .
The steps they are asking you to do , is simply to convert an overseas ATPL, Human factors and Air Law.
Then conduct an ATPL flight test , wether single pilot or multi pilot .
The steps they are asking you to do , is simply to convert an overseas ATPL, Human factors and Air Law.
Then conduct an ATPL flight test , wether single pilot or multi pilot .
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The old licence was permanently valid.
Just made a few calls and quoted $12,800 probably plus testing fee and check ride, and aircraft
in a Mustang that I have not flown before.
Just made a few calls and quoted $12,800 probably plus testing fee and check ride, and aircraft
in a Mustang that I have not flown before.
Last edited by SCPL_1988; 6th Mar 2019 at 17:55.
This is not the USA, where it appears that flying is still affordable. $250 an hour may buy you some CBT or fixed base, but not a full motion simulator approved for the ATPL flight test.
For about $35000 you could consider a full type rating on something useful like an A320 or B737, or if you would be happy with life in a regional airline, a Dash 8 or ATR. The final check can be organised to include the ATPL test. But you will need to find a sim buddy. The whole point of it being a multi crew test is that it assesses support/monitoring ability and overall management skills. Although there may seem to be less emphasis on handling compared with, say, the old single pilot CIR, you do still need the be able to fly accurately without the automatics to pass the test. Pilots with thousands of hours pressing buttons often don’t do well on this test, whereas those coming from a single pilot IFR environment go OK once they learn the necessary ‘soft’ skills.
I am not defending the ATPL test, or the high cost of it, merely saying that’s what it is.
The only way to rationalise it is to consider potential earnings in your first year on an A320 versus the pathetic salaries still being paid at the lower end of GA.
If your ambition does not extend beyond GA, why bother with the ATPL at all?. Some smaller operators actually would prefer you did not have it, as they hate it when they have to replace the pilot who just left for a better life.
For about $35000 you could consider a full type rating on something useful like an A320 or B737, or if you would be happy with life in a regional airline, a Dash 8 or ATR. The final check can be organised to include the ATPL test. But you will need to find a sim buddy. The whole point of it being a multi crew test is that it assesses support/monitoring ability and overall management skills. Although there may seem to be less emphasis on handling compared with, say, the old single pilot CIR, you do still need the be able to fly accurately without the automatics to pass the test. Pilots with thousands of hours pressing buttons often don’t do well on this test, whereas those coming from a single pilot IFR environment go OK once they learn the necessary ‘soft’ skills.
I am not defending the ATPL test, or the high cost of it, merely saying that’s what it is.
The only way to rationalise it is to consider potential earnings in your first year on an A320 versus the pathetic salaries still being paid at the lower end of GA.
If your ambition does not extend beyond GA, why bother with the ATPL at all?. Some smaller operators actually would prefer you did not have it, as they hate it when they have to replace the pilot who just left for a better life.
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Thanks Mach,
After being overseas for decades its difficult to get all the necessary information
in order to make firm plans.
I'm told that the ride has to be in a pressurized muti engine turbine aircraft
or an approved simulator such as a King Air that I've got lots of time in
duel pilot and single pilot.
How much ground and air preparation do you need for this ride?
In the USA or Canada I would just get a sim session first and assuming
it went ok, I would do the ride.
If the SIM had avionics or was a type I was not familiar with, I would need more
prep time.
Can anyone give me some feedback on the known available simulators?
Do they allow use of auto pilot or do they demand it be hand flown by the candidate?
I'm quite at home hand flying on a six pack and a G430.
Financial
Is there a sufficient pay scale difference between a King Air and Citation or Nextant 400
to make it worth paying for your own type rating?
PM's welcome
that sounds like a
After being overseas for decades its difficult to get all the necessary information
in order to make firm plans.
I'm told that the ride has to be in a pressurized muti engine turbine aircraft
or an approved simulator such as a King Air that I've got lots of time in
duel pilot and single pilot.
How much ground and air preparation do you need for this ride?
In the USA or Canada I would just get a sim session first and assuming
it went ok, I would do the ride.
If the SIM had avionics or was a type I was not familiar with, I would need more
prep time.
Can anyone give me some feedback on the known available simulators?
Do they allow use of auto pilot or do they demand it be hand flown by the candidate?
I'm quite at home hand flying on a six pack and a G430.
Financial
Is there a sufficient pay scale difference between a King Air and Citation or Nextant 400
to make it worth paying for your own type rating?
PM's welcome
that sounds like a
The old King Air sim in Melbourne is only a level B, so you would be up for some time in the real aeroplane to have all the elements signed off to activate an initial Instrument Rating.
During the test full use of automatics is expected for most of it; in fact if you can not use the automatics appropriately you could fail no matter how good your hand flying! Then follows a short exercise with unusual attitudes, limited panel and hand flying only; usually an engine failure followed by an ILS and missed approach.
There is a full level D King Air sim in Maroochydore, but sorry, no idea of the cost.
As for salaries, no idea, other than to note there seems to be plenty of demand for King Air pilots, less for the small jets. I suspect that is because the King Air is the main weapon of choce for any operator seriously in the IFR charter business, plus various air ambulance outfits also favour it.
With good King Air experience you could probably negotiate a bit on salary and resist the usual pressure to be bonded.
Corporate jet jobs appear to work on a who you know basis.
During the test full use of automatics is expected for most of it; in fact if you can not use the automatics appropriately you could fail no matter how good your hand flying! Then follows a short exercise with unusual attitudes, limited panel and hand flying only; usually an engine failure followed by an ILS and missed approach.
There is a full level D King Air sim in Maroochydore, but sorry, no idea of the cost.
As for salaries, no idea, other than to note there seems to be plenty of demand for King Air pilots, less for the small jets. I suspect that is because the King Air is the main weapon of choce for any operator seriously in the IFR charter business, plus various air ambulance outfits also favour it.
With good King Air experience you could probably negotiate a bit on salary and resist the usual pressure to be bonded.
Corporate jet jobs appear to work on a who you know basis.
Mach E,
Please explain, what is an "old" ATPL and excuse my ignorance, what is SOL??
Are you saying anybody with an ATPL which has not been converted to the new Part 61 format no longer has a license --- that's not the way I read the transition provisions.
Tootle pip!!
Please explain, what is an "old" ATPL and excuse my ignorance, what is SOL??
Are you saying anybody with an ATPL which has not been converted to the new Part 61 format no longer has a license --- that's not the way I read the transition provisions.
Tootle pip!!
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LeadSled
Is there any merit to the argument that an SCPL should be still be allowed to be converted to the new Part 61?
When you are overseas you miss out on CASA's unilateral ultimatums.
Is there any merit to the argument that an SCPL should be still be allowed to be converted to the new Part 61?
When you are overseas you miss out on CASA's unilateral ultimatums.
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Mach,
Is "the King Air sim in Melbourne" the one at Ansett?
When I see $15,000 preparatory training for multi-crew,
Is this 2 crew preparatory training a practical
prerequisite for the 4 hour flight test?
(if you have a lot of overseas two-pilot experience.)
Is "the King Air sim in Melbourne" the one at Ansett?
When I see $15,000 preparatory training for multi-crew,
Is this 2 crew preparatory training a practical
prerequisite for the 4 hour flight test?
(if you have a lot of overseas two-pilot experience.)
Why are you even bothering with this ? Such a waste of time and money. Almost no one requires you to have an ATPL to get hired these days in oz.
You just need a CPL with an instrument rating and ATPL exams done or in your case the conversion exam and AHUF. You may require a MCC ($6k) however depending on which country you gained your multi crew experience in you may be able to get a certificate of equivalence from CLARC at CASA which is a few hundred $$ instead.
You just need a CPL with an instrument rating and ATPL exams done or in your case the conversion exam and AHUF. You may require a MCC ($6k) however depending on which country you gained your multi crew experience in you may be able to get a certificate of equivalence from CLARC at CASA which is a few hundred $$ instead.
Leadsled has a point. If someone held an ‘old’ First Class ATPL it should be a straight swap at the next flight review or similar exercise.
But the ‘old’ SCPL or Second Class ATPL? Not so sure that the current CASA CLARC minions would know what to do with these. Most certainly there would be additional costs like MCC.
Hence converting a foreign ATPL would have to be easier.
For the OP, if you can show prior multi crew experience, e.g. Part 125 or 121 operations, you should be exempt. The old King Air sim is indeed at Ansett.
For Leadsled, SOL is an Americanism. s...outa luck.
But the ‘old’ SCPL or Second Class ATPL? Not so sure that the current CASA CLARC minions would know what to do with these. Most certainly there would be additional costs like MCC.
Hence converting a foreign ATPL would have to be easier.
For the OP, if you can show prior multi crew experience, e.g. Part 125 or 121 operations, you should be exempt. The old King Air sim is indeed at Ansett.
For Leadsled, SOL is an Americanism. s...outa luck.
My old SCPL has 'Permanently Valid' stamped on the validity page. My old Second Class ATPL has a giant 'OBSOLETE' stamped right across the front page. There is a message there somewhere.
In regard to 'SOL' I too needed my grand daughter to translate.
Senior Pilot; "Excuse me old chap, would you be so kind to explain to me the meaning of the acronym SOL?" "Thanks awfully".
Young First Officer; "LOL. LOL, WTF, WTF, SOL, BRO".
I think I had better get one of those carrot top hair-cuts. Starting to feel old.
In regard to 'SOL' I too needed my grand daughter to translate.
Senior Pilot; "Excuse me old chap, would you be so kind to explain to me the meaning of the acronym SOL?" "Thanks awfully".
Young First Officer; "LOL. LOL, WTF, WTF, SOL, BRO".
I think I had better get one of those carrot top hair-cuts. Starting to feel old.
My advice would be to contact CAA NZ and see if they will recognise the SCPL as a transition to a NZ ATPL under the TTMRA.
If they only give you a CPL donthe ATP flight test in a ANZ sim, and convert the NZ ATPL to CASA under the TTMRA, should be achievable under 5k.
If they only give you a CPL donthe ATP flight test in a ANZ sim, and convert the NZ ATPL to CASA under the TTMRA, should be achievable under 5k.
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Mach,
As stated, the SCPL had "permanently valid" written on it.
My view is CASA did not have the authority to issue a "deadline" when they knew or ought to have known that overseas pilots would be excluded. Its a form of retaliation for having left Australia to work overseas.
It's also a form of intimidation of what CASA can do to you if you go overseas.
Intimidation and retaliation are examples of bad faith conduct.
The other rationalizations are irrelevant.
As stated, the SCPL had "permanently valid" written on it.
My view is CASA did not have the authority to issue a "deadline" when they knew or ought to have known that overseas pilots would be excluded. Its a form of retaliation for having left Australia to work overseas.
It's also a form of intimidation of what CASA can do to you if you go overseas.
Intimidation and retaliation are examples of bad faith conduct.
The other rationalizations are irrelevant.
Mach,
As stated, the SCPL had "permanently valid" written on it.
My view is CASA did not have the authority to issue a "deadline" when they knew or ought to have known that overseas pilots would be excluded. Its a form of retaliation for having left Australia to work overseas.
It's also a form of intimidation of what CASA can do to you if you go overseas.
Intimidation and retaliation are examples of bad faith conduct.
The other rationalizations are irrelevant.
As stated, the SCPL had "permanently valid" written on it.
My view is CASA did not have the authority to issue a "deadline" when they knew or ought to have known that overseas pilots would be excluded. Its a form of retaliation for having left Australia to work overseas.
It's also a form of intimidation of what CASA can do to you if you go overseas.
Intimidation and retaliation are examples of bad faith conduct.
The other rationalizations are irrelevant.
Senior Commercial Pilot Licence subject papers is deemed to hold a complete credit for the Air Transport Pilot Licence examination, notwithstanding that SCPLs ceased to be valid under the Regulations at the end of 1996.
SCPL , I don’t agree that you are on the receiving end of CASA retaliation for heading overseas. Merely that in your long absence, rules changed. Governments come and go, legislation changes.
Many years ago I headed off to Blighty to experience the whole European flying thing. I already held what was then a British Colonial ATPL, having had it issued in Fiji, which was still run by a satellite version of their CAA. But the Pommy CAA made me sit ALL the ATPL exams and would not recognise any Type Ratings that had not been gained by passing their ARB exams, so I had to do a couple of those, too, to become employable.
Once I got that out of my system I went elsewhere. I kept the UK ATPL going for nearly 30 years. Then the Brits went all Euro and along came JAA, EASA etc. End of the UK ATPL, unless I went to the expense of heading back there, doing an Instrument Rating renewal etc to swap it over while it was still valid. Did the CAA keep me informed of these changes? Nope, it was entirely up to me to know how I could be affected.
Now the Poms have the possibilty of Brexit meanng they may have to reinstate their own licence.
It is quite possible you could get a CASA ATPL on the basis of an obsolete SCPL. BUT, you will then have to do a full MCC at considerable cost. When doing licence conversions the Authority does not allow ‘cherry picking’ of qualifications from various sources. They only allow equivalence of one licence. The FAA, NZ CAA etc are all similar in this regard - only one licence and its associated ratings etc is allowed for consideration in any conversion process.
Either way, you will have to do the flight test in a multi crew environment. What you need to avoid is the additional burden of the MCC course.
Many years ago I headed off to Blighty to experience the whole European flying thing. I already held what was then a British Colonial ATPL, having had it issued in Fiji, which was still run by a satellite version of their CAA. But the Pommy CAA made me sit ALL the ATPL exams and would not recognise any Type Ratings that had not been gained by passing their ARB exams, so I had to do a couple of those, too, to become employable.
Once I got that out of my system I went elsewhere. I kept the UK ATPL going for nearly 30 years. Then the Brits went all Euro and along came JAA, EASA etc. End of the UK ATPL, unless I went to the expense of heading back there, doing an Instrument Rating renewal etc to swap it over while it was still valid. Did the CAA keep me informed of these changes? Nope, it was entirely up to me to know how I could be affected.
Now the Poms have the possibilty of Brexit meanng they may have to reinstate their own licence.
It is quite possible you could get a CASA ATPL on the basis of an obsolete SCPL. BUT, you will then have to do a full MCC at considerable cost. When doing licence conversions the Authority does not allow ‘cherry picking’ of qualifications from various sources. They only allow equivalence of one licence. The FAA, NZ CAA etc are all similar in this regard - only one licence and its associated ratings etc is allowed for consideration in any conversion process.
Either way, you will have to do the flight test in a multi crew environment. What you need to avoid is the additional burden of the MCC course.