Where did the 'Mayday fuel' statement come from?
Thread Starter
Where did the 'Mayday fuel' statement come from?
I have always understood that the word “Mayday” announced on any radio channel would bring concern that the plane was in an absolute immediate threat of danger. I understood that the "Pan Pan" call was to be used in other situations.
Now we have an ICAO decision to use the word "Mayday" when the plane may be going to land with 29 minutes of fuel.
I sent this letter to Michael McCormack and received this answer, which of course doesn’t say anything.
I am interested to find out if anyone knows where this statement “Mayday fuel” came from? I would have thought there would be lots of other words that could be used – i.e “Pan fuel” or “emergency fuel” rather than the word “Mayday”.
I am sure most will agree we have to be very wary of the cry wolf principle.
Now we have an ICAO decision to use the word "Mayday" when the plane may be going to land with 29 minutes of fuel.
I sent this letter to Michael McCormack and received this answer, which of course doesn’t say anything.
I am interested to find out if anyone knows where this statement “Mayday fuel” came from? I would have thought there would be lots of other words that could be used – i.e “Pan fuel” or “emergency fuel” rather than the word “Mayday”.
I am sure most will agree we have to be very wary of the cry wolf principle.
ICAO. Been in use internationally for years. And that's what the letter says- how could you perceive it "says nothing' when it says we are conforming with international best practice?
Out of interest Dick, what level of remaining fuel do YOU consider to be an emergency?
Out of interest Dick, what level of remaining fuel do YOU consider to be an emergency?
According to LeadSled, you might only have 1 minute sloshing around...
Dick, did you email ICAO?
I presume not.
Also, "mayday fuel" is different to "mayday". That's why it is a different call. A "mayday fuel" call has a set criteria surrounding it. Being cognisant of this criteria behooves you. Don't get hung up on the singular word "mayday".
I presume not.
Also, "mayday fuel" is different to "mayday". That's why it is a different call. A "mayday fuel" call has a set criteria surrounding it. Being cognisant of this criteria behooves you. Don't get hung up on the singular word "mayday".
Yes Dick: It’s a mayday situation that isn’t a mayday situation. Get with the ICAO program.
It won’t be changed, Dick. Australia would never countenance filing a difference from ICAO SARPS.
You didnt answer my question- how little fuel is an emergency?
Last edited by Wizofoz; 26th Nov 2018 at 10:07.
You didnt answer my question- how little fuel is an emergency
Why can't the world just accept pilot discretion as to what constitutes mayday fuel? 29 minutes crossing the final approach fix.... not such a concern, 29 minutes while holding at 38000ft... perhaps.
Dick -
As other posters have said, we have been using those definitions for years. If I think I am going to land below Final reserve (typically about 4.2 Tonnes in an A380), I want ATC to treat the airfield exactly as if I have an emergency. Eg, tell Aircraft in front of me to go around etc. Because if I have to do a go around, a typical go around, and return to landing will take about 15 minutes and 3 tonnes. That would definitely have you sucking the seat covers into your butt cheeks.
As other posters have said, we have been using those definitions for years. If I think I am going to land below Final reserve (typically about 4.2 Tonnes in an A380), I want ATC to treat the airfield exactly as if I have an emergency. Eg, tell Aircraft in front of me to go around etc. Because if I have to do a go around, a typical go around, and return to landing will take about 15 minutes and 3 tonnes. That would definitely have you sucking the seat covers into your butt cheeks.
My military days we had "minimum fuel" to get priority which would upgrade to a "Pan" call meaning urgency and then a "Mayday" meaning emergency...
Adopting "Mayday" and added a word to it diminishes the original intent of the word.
An expected landing with less that the required fixed reserve of fuel should be a "minimum fuel" call.
Just because it has been used overseas for yonks does not make it logical or correct.
The full ICAO procedure is that when a pilot thinks he may land with less than Final reserve he declares “Minimum Fuel” . When he knows he will land with less than final reserve he declares “Mayday Fuel” . This has been used by the rest of the world for sometime, as others have mentioned . It is a good thing Oz has finally caught up (well they didn't take the first bit it seems) . With its remote airfields and lack of facilities fuel can become a scarce resource and having a predictable procedure that is internationally recognised helps to mitigate.
The PAN call is not understood in a lot of countries, hence the use of the word Mayday . Remember ICAO wanted the one procedure throughout the world .
If you plan your flight correctly you shouldn't need to use it .
LB excepted of course .
The PAN call is not understood in a lot of countries, hence the use of the word Mayday . Remember ICAO wanted the one procedure throughout the world .
If you plan your flight correctly you shouldn't need to use it .
LB excepted of course .
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What Don said...
Amendment 36 to Annex 6 effective as of 15 November 2012 provides the following additional guidance
:4.3.7 In-flight fuel management
4.3.7.1 An operator shall establish policies and procedures, approved by the State of the Operator, to ensure that in-flight fuel checks and fuel management are performed.
4.3.7.2 The pilot-in-command shall continually ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining on board is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made with the planned final reserve fuel remaining upon landing.
4.3.7.2.1 The pilot-in-command shall request delay information from ATC when unanticipated circumstances may result in landing at the destination aerodrome with less than the final reserve fuel plus any fuel required to proceed to an alternate aerodrome or the fuel required to operate to an isolated aerodrome.
4.3.7.2.2 The pilot-in-command shall advise ATC of a minimum fuel state by declaring MINIMUM FUEL when, having committed to land at a specific aerodrome, the pilot calculates that any change to the existing clearance to that aerodrome may result in landing with less than planned final reserve fuel.
Note 1.— The declaration of MINIMUM FUEL informs ATC that all planned aerodrome options have been reduced to a specific aerodrome of intended landing and any change to the existing clearance may result in landing with less than planned final reserve fuel. This is not an emergency situation but an indication that an emergency situation is possible should any additional delay occur.
Note 2.— Guidance on declaring minimum fuel is contained in the Fuel Planning Manual (Doc 9976). It should be noted that Pilots should not expect any form of priority handling as a result of a “MINIMUM FUEL” declaration. ATC will, however, advise the flight crew of any additional expected delays as well as coordinate when transferring control of the aeroplane to ensure other ATC units are aware of the flight’s fuel state.
4.3.7.2.3 The pilot-in-command shall declare a situation of fuel emergency by broadcasting MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, FUEL, when the calculated usable fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome where a safe landing can be made is less than the planned final reserve fuel.
Note 1.— The planned final reserve fuel refers to the value calculated in 4.3.6.3 e) 1) or 2) and is the minimum amount of fuel required upon landing at any aerodrome.
Note 2.— The words “MAYDAY FUEL” describe the nature of the distress conditions as required in Annex 10, Volume II, 5.3.2.1, b) 3.Note 3.— Guidance on procedures for in-flight fuel management are contained in the Fuel Planning Manual (Doc 9976)
:4.3.7 In-flight fuel management
4.3.7.1 An operator shall establish policies and procedures, approved by the State of the Operator, to ensure that in-flight fuel checks and fuel management are performed.
4.3.7.2 The pilot-in-command shall continually ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining on board is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made with the planned final reserve fuel remaining upon landing.
4.3.7.2.1 The pilot-in-command shall request delay information from ATC when unanticipated circumstances may result in landing at the destination aerodrome with less than the final reserve fuel plus any fuel required to proceed to an alternate aerodrome or the fuel required to operate to an isolated aerodrome.
4.3.7.2.2 The pilot-in-command shall advise ATC of a minimum fuel state by declaring MINIMUM FUEL when, having committed to land at a specific aerodrome, the pilot calculates that any change to the existing clearance to that aerodrome may result in landing with less than planned final reserve fuel.
Note 1.— The declaration of MINIMUM FUEL informs ATC that all planned aerodrome options have been reduced to a specific aerodrome of intended landing and any change to the existing clearance may result in landing with less than planned final reserve fuel. This is not an emergency situation but an indication that an emergency situation is possible should any additional delay occur.
Note 2.— Guidance on declaring minimum fuel is contained in the Fuel Planning Manual (Doc 9976). It should be noted that Pilots should not expect any form of priority handling as a result of a “MINIMUM FUEL” declaration. ATC will, however, advise the flight crew of any additional expected delays as well as coordinate when transferring control of the aeroplane to ensure other ATC units are aware of the flight’s fuel state.
4.3.7.2.3 The pilot-in-command shall declare a situation of fuel emergency by broadcasting MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, FUEL, when the calculated usable fuel predicted to be available upon landing at the nearest aerodrome where a safe landing can be made is less than the planned final reserve fuel.
Note 1.— The planned final reserve fuel refers to the value calculated in 4.3.6.3 e) 1) or 2) and is the minimum amount of fuel required upon landing at any aerodrome.
Note 2.— The words “MAYDAY FUEL” describe the nature of the distress conditions as required in Annex 10, Volume II, 5.3.2.1, b) 3.Note 3.— Guidance on procedures for in-flight fuel management are contained in the Fuel Planning Manual (Doc 9976)
Who needs rules?
Thread Starter
A friend in the USA has sent me the current FAA requirements in relation to “minimum fuel” and declaring a “fuel emergency”. Note that there is no mention of the word “Mayday”.
I wonder if this is just another case where the US will be notifying a difference with ICAO. I understand the USA has filed more differences with ICAO than any other country. Once a senior FAA staffer said:
I wonder if this is just another case where the US will be notifying a difference with ICAO. I understand the USA has filed more differences with ICAO than any other country. Once a senior FAA staffer said:
“Dick, if we complied with all of the ICAO requirements there would not be a viable aviation industry in the USA.”
Note 2.— .... . It should be noted that Pilots should not expect any form of priority handling as a result of a “MINIMUM FUEL” declaration. . .....
Why would you bother to call "minimum fuel" if it is not going to reduce flight time to landing.
the pilot calculates that any change to the existing clearance to that aerodrome may result in landing with less than planned final reserve fuel.
There does not appear any requirement on ATC to give a landing time in reply to a minimum fuel call.
That is an engineering fact, for anybody who understands "order of accuracy". A fact experienced in practice too many times to dispute, as applied to aircraft.
The use of the word "Mayday" is another matter, in my view "fuel emergency" fits the bill as well as anything else --- Mayday is over the top in this situation.
Tootle pip!!