Moorabbin Emergency
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Seems to be popular to beat up on Soar but you're got to admit their marketing is years ahead of any other flying school in the country.
On a Saturday afternoon there seems to be more cars parked outside Soar than in the MCG car park on a match day. I've never flown there but they do seem more accessible and approachable than some other crusty old flight schools that hav'nt changed their business models since the C172 was first flown.
I've copied ideas from their website and Social Media marketing for my own (non-aviation) business.
On a Saturday afternoon there seems to be more cars parked outside Soar than in the MCG car park on a match day. I've never flown there but they do seem more accessible and approachable than some other crusty old flight schools that hav'nt changed their business models since the C172 was first flown.
I've copied ideas from their website and Social Media marketing for my own (non-aviation) business.
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Perhaps Soar needs to concentrate more resources in to substance over marketing. Ultimately you need to decide what you want to be. A training institute for aviators or have a slick marketing presence.
Not saying the two are mutually exclusive but easy to focus on one at the expense of the other. Basic airmanship hasn't changed for decades and has kept many aviating safely for a long time. Something the so called crusty flight schools have intiuatively understood and excelled at.
Not saying the two are mutually exclusive but easy to focus on one at the expense of the other. Basic airmanship hasn't changed for decades and has kept many aviating safely for a long time. Something the so called crusty flight schools have intiuatively understood and excelled at.
Join Date: Mar 2018
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@peterc005: I'm conflicted. Their marketing is perhaps more polished than that of other flight schools (although others are catching up) but all I see when I browse their homepage are attractive rates to fool new students into thinking that they'll save money on their training. I've spoken to a number of their former instructors who told me of their practices to increase flight times and repeat lessons. No offence but when I see the marketing going around this school, I think they should seriously expand into the $20-a-slice smashed avocado business. Green and yellow make a good combination too.
I am probably the first to beat up on SOAR having had dealings with their shonky owner Neel K, but I am certain in this case that it is simply that the aircraft concerned is a lemon.
VH OWW is serial number 20 so an early build air frame. In its previous life at AAA in QLD it had numerous gear problems and engine issues, missing flap hinges, etc.
The P2006T Tecnam twin is just not built strong enough for use in a flight training school. Gear cycle is 22 seconds from down to up or up to down. Really lightly built for a twin and not a very durable aircraft.
VH OWW is serial number 20 so an early build air frame. In its previous life at AAA in QLD it had numerous gear problems and engine issues, missing flap hinges, etc.
The P2006T Tecnam twin is just not built strong enough for use in a flight training school. Gear cycle is 22 seconds from down to up or up to down. Really lightly built for a twin and not a very durable aircraft.
Gear cycle is 22 seconds from down to up or up to down.
22 seconds for the gear cycle seems like a very long time.
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Thread Starter
From the SOAR Facebook website.
Things not right in the Soar camp. CASA said to be involved. The subject of GoPro cameras and and facebook clips cam up.
And SOAR still advertise that they are the safest.
Soar Aviation
· On behalf of Soar Aviation, the incident that occurred at Stawell has activated a comprehensive emergency response, which involves grounding all our fleet across all bases. Soar Aviation and emergency response teams have incident response management and procedures in place in the event of an incident of this nature.
Soar Aviation’s priority is the safety and security of our employees, students, visitors, and those involved in the incident. Privacy laws limit our ability to provide any additional information.
As more information is available we will be providing updates through our website www.soar.edu.au
and facebook.com/soaraviation
We respectfully ask for privacy for all those involved whilst we investigate the incident.
Things not right in the Soar camp. CASA said to be involved. The subject of GoPro cameras and and facebook clips cam up.
And SOAR still advertise that they are the safest.
Soar AviationSoar Aviation’s priority is the safety and security of our employees, students, visitors, and those involved in the incident. Privacy laws limit our ability to provide any additional information.
As more information is available we will be providing updates through our website www.soar.edu.au
and facebook.com/soaraviation
We respectfully ask for privacy for all those involved whilst we investigate the incident.
I was at Moorabbin last Saturday (great weather) and the lack of activity at Soar was very apparent. I wondered what was happening. The Stawell accident was a Bristelle and they have plenty of other types. Something more "systemic"?
Seems a bit strange as they were flying the same aircraft type, the day after the crash. Perhaps they have found something since - remember the crew is around to discuss it this time so perhaps they have uncovered something. Seemingly no reason to ground the Foxbats, so does sound like some kind of organisational. We shall soon see.
or the emergency extension? (for which the POH says: "The emergency landing gear extension operation takes about 20 sec.")The main issue I had was that, at the time I was flying it, Vlo and Vle for the P2006T were only 93 kias
(This was later "re-certified" to ~122 kias I believe)... That and it had no electric ground fans like the Partenavia (only ram air vents), which meant flying in summer could get a bit unpleasant if you were sitting on the ground (until I bought a cigarette lighter port powered fan from Super Cheap 
)Personally, I thought it was fine for flight training.
Implemented a new FSO - everyone grounded over the weekend to allow new training for the instructors.
Students have to complete a stalling exercise every three months. This time more thorough (lots of new configurations/positions to recover from to remain current with the school) of the aircraft than has been previously asked of them.
Students have to complete a stalling exercise every three months. This time more thorough (lots of new configurations/positions to recover from to remain current with the school) of the aircraft than has been previously asked of them.
This time more thorough (lots of new configurations/positions to recover from
Most LSA's have benign stalling characteristics. You have to put them into the most unlikely and may I say unrealistic attitudes to coax the aircraft into a situation where recovery is risky. In so doing, it is all too easy to over-stress the airframe through ham-fisted or lead footed attempts to induce a wing drop at the point of stall so the box can be ticked.
Some instructors love showing off by tossing an aircraft into frightening attitudes to tick the box on stall recoveries. Amateur pilot maintenance won't pick up airframe or engine mounts hidden stress.
If the rules (aka the syllabus of training designed by a flying school) require demonstration (for example) of competency at recovery from a wing drop at the point of stall, I have no problem with that; but do it on an aerobatic type certified and stressed for the job; not an aircraft that is designed and demonstrated to have benign stall characteristics. The 737 is such an aircraft but we don't throw a 737 all over the sky and stamping on full rudder to induce a wing drop. Nor do Boeing test pilots I bet.
Some instructors are apprehensive about teaching stalling and stall recovery. Even though the stall may be benign. The usual briefing blurb includes saying the aircraft will experience buffeting of the tail surfaces as a precursor to the stall warning. This leads to the advice that the pilot should initiate stall recovery as soon as buffeting or the stall warning occurs. If the stall is benign - meaning the aircraft waffles gently nose high even with the stick hard back - then it is poor instructor technique to deliberately fake a stall to the student by using harsh and uncoordinated control movements (inordinately excess rudder, aileron and elevator) that would never be used in real life
In fact, with most modern light aircraft and that includes LSA's ,there is rarely a discernible buffet prior to the stall. But you can bet the new instructor will "patter" the approach to the stall and include comment "can you feel the buffet now?" when there is no buffet. It is far more honest for the instructor to brief a student that on this particular aircraft (insert type) there is no buffet prior to the stall.
Wartime aircraft were often different. Their stalling characteristics could vary significantly. The original flying instructors handbook published by the then Department of Civil Aviation warned that use of instant aileron to pick up a wing drop occurring at the point of stall could often cause the aircraft to enter an incipient spin. That point is still taught at some civilian flying schools 75 years later, where instructors still teach use of rudder to pick up a dropped wing. This is incorrect interpretation of the original advice.
It may be of historical interest to some to compare the stalling characteristics of the wartime Mustang versus today's Cessna 172 and its ilk.
For example: The following extract is from RAAF Publication No. 780 dated August 1946 Pilot's Notes for Mustang .
Para. 46. Stalling. "With fuselage tank full or half full, there is no buffeting to give warning of the approaching stall, but a series of stick reversals occurs just above stalling speed; at the stall the right wing drops sharply, and unless immediate recovery action is taken, a spin may develop. the stick must be moved firmly forward for recovery.
The aircraft sinks rapidly as stalling speed is approached. If the stick is held back at the stall, a wing will drop very rapidly and the aircraft will become inverted. Power on spins should never be intentionally performed. As many as five or six turns may be made after recovery action and 9000 -10,000 feet lost."
Last edited by Centaurus; 1st Nov 2018 at 13:56.
Rhsandlovingit. The gear cycle time I quoted was for that particular airframe VH-OWW. I timed it several times Feb 2016 in Qld at its former home to Soar. Something definitely wrong with that aircraft. I had to do 5 flights to finish a students MEA Class Rating Flight Test due to failures we experienced with the gear on this aircraft. Other P2006T aircraft may be better as you describe, they could hardly be worse I reckon!
Last edited by zanthrus; 1st Nov 2018 at 14:20.
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Out of curiosity, why isn't the recovery from stalls induced from higher load factors during turns at low speeds taught? This appears to me as a situation that most pilots will more likely encounter than the usual clean and approach configuration stalls. That's especially true in some LSA where stalls require so much back pressure that you'd really wonder how anyone could get to that point without doing it willingly.